Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

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Tantus
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:18 pm

Leah wrote:Why?

I'm serious. Why should she?

The vast majority of RP you'll find in those places is complete shit, unless the sim itself is app-only and they're actually serious about vetting people.

Why should she expose herself to that? Why should she take the risk that her character will be killed just because some rando got bored? I've done RP in those kinds of environments, and you know what? It's really not worth it.

It doesn't make you a "better" role player, anymore than stabbing yourself in the hand somehow makes you more "awesome." Both are equally stupid. What investment would anyone place in a character that Joe Blow can just whack for any reason, or no reason at all?

And don't tell me players aren't like that. Yes, they are. I've lost multiple characters to players just like that. Not for anything my characters did. Not for anything they provoked, but because other players were bored, or they were targeting my characters to get to someone else, or they just didn't like me, the player.

'Cause screw story. Joe Bob needs to be entertained, ladies and gentlemen, and if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, his character squishing yours is the height of entertainment. He's not interested in actual RP, he's interested in getting his jollies off.

Yeah, no, thank you. I don't have a problem with the threat of character death, and I for damn sure will go with the flow if it's part of an actual story, but I'm not going to traipse over to some sim full of asshats where "anything can happen" just to make some dude on the internet think better of me. :roll:

And it doesn't make me - or Sasi - a "bad roleplayer," or a "coward," or any other one of your ridiculously little insults to refuse to place ourselves into a situation where we're not going to enjoy ourselves. Ain't no martyrs here, dude.


I'm not suggesting anyone should enter the common Lifestyle sims for good roleplay, even I wouldn't play on them. There are other genres out there offering a mix of opportunities and danger for your character, the only caveat is you shouldn't go in with friends.

Clearly you're reading too much into this, have I called Sasi a 'coward' or a 'bad roleplayer'?
Accusations of cowardice are reserved for men alone, we don't say it to women. And Sasi's actually a good roleplayer, I'd never say otherwise.

It doesn't sound like you've have good experiences in the places you've roleplayed, so here's a tip, avoid the places and people like that in future.
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Sasi
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:41 pm

Tantus wrote:Really, it doesn't matter what you've roleplayed in Kaelus, Ar, or anywhere. The primary purpose of roleplaying is entertainment, if you enjoyed it, you've succeeded. Other people may not meet your standards but if they're having fun, they're succeeding too.

When someone posts severe criticisms and dismissals of other venues. Then the question arises:
"How did you do it better."

The foundations of a sim, including the rules, lore, applications, emerging storylines and planned events all sound positive on paper. In practice the experience is only mildly enhanced. A significant effort from the admin team results in modest returns. Because the weakest link are your roleplayers.

How well you govern your sim is almost irrelevant when you attract the same groups of people who settle in and do... nothing. I don't consider that people sitting in their homes, posting masses of paragraphs are actively contributing, they do nothing for the sim and then they leave.

The Ars aren't sims I'm picking on, they're just a convenient example. And if you want the details of our interaction with Ar, you could ask Theoden.

Kaelus was likely a fun place to roleplay, but you've sold it on credentials which didn't exist. If SL RP was a business, you would have been taken before the Advertising Standards Agency several times already for false marketing. It's misleading to sell it as a story driven sim when the Arian occupiers were never charged with consequences.

Everywhere you go in SL RP, will be a group of people who believe they do it better than everyone else. When you roleplay with them and look at their past record, they're no different than anyone else. So excuse me for being sceptical when these claims arise on the Gorums and there's never anything of substance behind the hype.

But as I say, if you're personally enjoying it, then you're succeeding in roleplaying.


I would appreciate you stop bitching about these people with whom you never RPed, Tantus, really, same for the sims... You didn't express skepticism. No. You didn't stop making statements. Statements you had no way to support by your own experience (unlike Leah and me....) But well, it looks like I won't have to correct, this time, your fantasized claims about the events which occured in Kaelus.

As for your interactions in Nero's Ar, about... Removing the ubar from power, was it that...? I was curious to know more about this event. And I didn't ask Theoden, but people who were actively playing in Laura and not in a minor position. But I'm not sure I want to engage again in a long discussion, since the version I have been given differ from your (I'm a little bit busy RL, these days...)

And the people with whom I enjoyed RPing in SL Gor were different from the average SL Gor player base you commonly meet in SL Gor.
I'm sorry, but I value a few standards and my friends have them:
- Respect of the role play etiquette
- Being familiar with some RP tools (or willing to learm) such as NPC, dices...
- Separation IC and OOC (people who distance themselves from their character and treat everyone equally in OOC)
- Para-rp (I didn't say fluffy emotes)
- Creativity (in knowing there is a thin line between being creative and being a snowflake)
- Players who studied their role and the environment where they chose to play their character.

Tantus wrote:Accusations of cowardice are reserved for men alone, we don't say it to women.

Huh? Are you implying that it's not in women's -nature- to be brave and strong, so, it wouldn't make sense to call them "cowards"...?
I'm a bit confused....
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:57 pm

Sasi wrote:But well, it looks like I won't have to correct, this time, your fantasized claims about the events which occured in Kaelus.


I haven't attributed any events to Kaelus and that was the point, nothing substantial happened there. The storyline your 'advanced roleplayer' friends had envisioned was barely touched upon. I'm not bitching about these people, after all these years, it's amused me to hear they ran from Tarnwald calling us Lifestylers, then opened a GE sim with overtones of homosexual bondage.

I couldn't make this up, it's above my creative scope.

Feel free to post anything you were told about Laura, I'm open to further comedy from your friends.

Sasi wrote:And the people with whom I enjoyed RPing in SL Gor were different from the average SL Gor player base you commonly meet in SL Gor.
I'm sorry, but I value a few standards and my friends have them:
- Respect of the role play etiquette
- Being familiar with some RP tools (or willing to learm) such as NPC, dices...
- Separation IC and OOC (people who distance themselves from their character and treat everyone equally in OOC)
- Para-rp (I didn't say fluffy emotes)
- Creativity (in knowing there is a thin line between being creative and being a snowflake)
- Players who studied their role and the environment where they chose to play their character.


Well done, you comprehend the basics of roleplaying. Practically everyone I've roleplayed understood the basics but no one ever made a big deal about it. They just roleplayed.

The theme we were discussing was the journey towards a sim's ending. Have the characters accomplished their goals, has there been a shift in dynamics, will the journey end in a fitting climax or has the sim flopped without consequence.

We've dissected a sample of ten 'advanced roleplaying' sims and strangely enough, they all withered within the first two months. With not a single one accomplishing advanced roleplaying themes. The question is 'why'. With all the lore, the applications, the admin guidance, why is there a pattern of consecutive failures.

I understand why you routinely resort to a list of 'Roleplaying Basics 101', it's to keep the discussion where you're comfortable, in beginner's class.

Sasi wrote:Your conception of role-play is, in fact, something close to a video game where players are expected to pass levels, gain points, fill quests and reach an objectif in order to win the game. You never approached the emotional part which makes the real interest of role play. The events are not for you an opportunity to express your character, his emotions, etc. Just a way to fill an agenda and win the game.


Setting character goals isn't gaming, it's taken from real life. I have weekly schedules planned for work and monthly goals for better living. When I roleplayed, I'd give my character weekly and monthly goals too. It's possibly why my characters managed their progress whilst these advanced-roleplayer types waste away roleplaying their emotions.

Setting goals is a beneficial trait, you formalise your direction, then you make it happen.

Sasi wrote:
Tantus wrote:Accusations of cowardice are reserved for men alone, we don't say it to women.

Huh? Are you implying that it's not in women's -nature- to be brave and strong, so, it wouldn't make sense to call them "cowards"...?
I'm a bit confused....


Hold on to your feminist horses.

We don't call women derogatory terms out of respect. But bitch and cunt are acceptable under the right circumstances so don't push it!
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Leah » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:29 pm

Tantus wrote:I'm not suggesting anyone should enter the common Lifestyle sims for good roleplay, even I wouldn't play on them. There are other genres out there offering a mix of opportunities and danger for your character, the only caveat is you shouldn't go in with friends.


Why not? What's wrong with going in with friends? Most genres have pack-like concepts. Coterie. Cabal. Gang. Whatever. Why not go in with friends?

Clearly you're reading too much into this, have I called Sasi a 'coward' or a 'bad roleplayer'?
Accusations of cowardice are reserved for men alone, we don't say it to women. And Sasi's actually a good roleplayer, I'd never say otherwise.


You just kind of implied it. Repeatedly. And I'm not reading too much into this, I've been reading this circular sillines for days now. Pretty sure my head hurts.

It doesn't sound like you've have good experiences in the places you've roleplayed, so here's a tip, avoid the places and people like that in future.


Yeahhhhhh...lookie, I haven't touched Camarilla/MES in 5+ years, so yeah, you could say I've been avoiding those people. Instead, I've played online, which, at least from what I've seen, yields a much better experience.

IDK, I used to be able to wander into a group setting by my lonesome and be fine, but these days, I strongly prefer to have at least one or two people with me to provide context.
This isn't fucking Survivor. We aren't a tribe.

If I won't put up with an in-character owner trying to control my OOC life, what makes you think I'll put up with you trying to do that?

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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Leah » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:30 pm

Tantus wrote:Hold on to your feminist horses.

We don't call women derogatory terms out of respect. But bitch and cunt are acceptable under the right circumstances so don't push it!


And here I totally thought that you were saying you didn't hold us women to the same standards. :lol:
This isn't fucking Survivor. We aren't a tribe.

If I won't put up with an in-character owner trying to control my OOC life, what makes you think I'll put up with you trying to do that?

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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:44 am

Tantus wrote:I haven't attributed any events to Kaelus and that was the point, nothing substantial happened there. The storyline your 'advanced roleplayer' friends had envisioned was barely touched upon. I'm not bitching about these people, after all these years, it's amused me to hear they ran from Tarnwald calling us Lifestylers, then opened a GE sim with overtones of homosexual bondage.
I couldn't make this up, it's above my creative scope.
Feel free to post anything you were told about Laura, I'm open to further comedy from your friends.


If I were sexist, Tantus, I would say you're typically bitching like a -girl-.......

The lore of Kaelus and its role play were consistant. I know of no sim which had opened with such a lore. This story was intensively played by the two factions which fought each other.
No group ran from Tarnwald in calling Tarnwald players lifestylers. A group left Tarnwald after your stupid notice, resuming the situation with these words: "again that same old school Gor crap".

The sim was not GE, has never been GE. In fact, it was one of the most BTB sims on the Gor grid. We required a BTB dress code and we were very strict about it. We set a few rules that were very seldom enforced in other sims, like the use of NPCs, we prevented random slavesto go serve in establishments which didn't own them. We limited the number of exceptional characters and enforced many of these details which at the end create an authentic Gorean environment, in the respect of the culture such as described by Norman.

Yes, at the end, there were many gay characters. It had been an issue when some of these players played these characters in a way that was not very plausible in a Gorean environment (warriors speaking of the sexual skills of their "slut boys" in public areas for example). We addressed them, some refused to adjust and left.

When the admin team and owners lost their motivation, we closed the sim. The traffic at this moment turned still around 16K, which was decent.

About Laura, I asked you to tell us how you removed Ubar Cassius from power. You made clear it happened through your own actions.
From what I have been told, you gave yourself a credit you didn't deserve. In fact, all this RP was described to me like a crapshow (ubar captured, then got his head was cut off and the player eventually banned all the protagonists from Laura).

With my conception of political RP, I supposed you had gotten allies in Ar (maybe, the Taurentians) and convinced them to depose the ubar. After, I figured you had built a few new schemes in order to name a pupper ubar who would have allowed an occupation by Laura. This town would have dictated the conditions for a peace and at the end, by the means of pawns put in position of authority within Ar, ruled that city...

Sorry, I'm not impressed by a mere capture.

But eh, feel free to give your own version.

Tantus wrote:Well done, you comprehend the basics of roleplaying. Practically everyone I've roleplayed understood the basics but no one ever made a big deal about it. They just roleplayed.

Actually, in environments like ROAIF, these basics are common standards, perfectly understood and applied by 99% of players.
In Gor... Well, re-read Leah's posts, lol lol!

Tantus wrote:The theme we were discussing was the journey towards a sim's ending. Have the characters accomplished their goals, has there been a shift in dynamics, will the journey end in a fitting climax or has the sim flopped without consequence.

A role play is not a video game, Tantus. In role play, you can focus on your characters, their emotions, sentiments, personal evolution, dramas, ordeals, etc. Who they love, who they hate, how they blossom or the opposite in a particular situation/event/storyline.
You only see games to win... Characters are for you like some pawns you move on a chessboard. Quests to fill, combats to win, purposes to reach. Rather superficial for those like me who want to explore the different aspects of our humane nature through our fictive characters and the situation they face. These purposes are, so, more as a background for our character.

Tantus wrote:We've dissected a sample of ten 'advanced roleplaying' sims and strangely enough, they all withered within the first two months. With not a single one accomplishing advanced roleplaying themes. The question is 'why'. With all the lore, the applications, the admin guidance, why is there a pattern of consecutive failures.

In fact, Tantus, you bitched and extrapoled, projecting your own prejudices about places where you never RPed and people with whom you never interacted IC'ly. You keep repeatiting yourself.

Tantus wrote:I understand why you routinely resort to a list of 'Roleplaying Basics 101', it's to keep the discussion where you're comfortable, in beginner's class.

Not exactly, Tantus... I had again to explain to you why I prefer to role play with friends. Because they aren't RP noobs, unlike so many guys in SL Gor who don't even know what is a NPC and can't even take turns in posting.

Tantus wrote:Hold on to your feminist horses.
We don't call women derogatory terms out of respect. But bitch and cunt are acceptable under the right circumstances so don't push it!

I'm definitely a feminist, indeed. As should be any decent person... Being feminist is just that: An advocate of social, economic, educative, political and legal rights for women, equal to those of men. No big deal

I see nothing wrong at calling a woman a coward if she deserved it. I'm perfectly comfortable at calling a man, a bitch and a cunt...

And it's not that I want to push it, but if you want to call me a bitch and a cunt, well, feel free, I should survive ;) After all, in the eyes of some individuals we're always a bitch and we can't please everyone, hmmm? (nor we want it) :mrgreen:
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Geary Falconer » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:06 pm

Oh dear. Some things have not changed, I see.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:42 pm

Tantus wrote:We've dissected a sample of ten 'advanced roleplaying' sims and strangely enough, they all withered within the first two months. With not a single one accomplishing advanced roleplaying themes. The question is 'why'. With all the lore, the applications, the admin guidance, why is there a pattern of consecutive failures.


I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here, but for me personally the Game of Thrones genre within SL stands out quite a bit.

ROIAF traffic has gone up and down but it usually is somewhere in the range of 20k to 50k (especially during reopenings, big events or new chapters). Even then, sometimes you still have competening new GoT RP sims popping up, who also seem to hover around that 20k to 30k traffic mark.

From what I've heard when ROIAF closed it's doors, it didn't take more than a few weeks before another GoT sim popped up created by mostly the same community of RPers, and new people. In my eyes that 'advanced RP sim' doesn't follow this pattern of 'sims dying after a little while'. It seems a pretty persistent RP community with a focus on high standards (and at the very least the basics which are so rare to find in SL Gor) and traffic that outperforms even today's most active gorean sims.

Why don't 'advanced RP sims' last long in SL Gor? Well, I fear the answer is rather simple: There is a lack of 'advanced' RPers to keep them alive. Most of those seem to have moved on to other RP genres... and those few good RPers that are there either:
A) Keep to themselves because they know their RP can get ruined if they involve the community at large
B) Are very thinly spread out across the grid of many different Gorean sims.

There really isn't any other mystery to it. It's not that people get 'bored' in advanced RP sims, it's more that most RPers in SL Gor are pretty boring and afraid of innovation (or well-written RP for that matter :p).


How to make a really popular and high traffic gorean sim?
1. Cater towards a mixed crowd of semi-RPers to lifestylers
1b. Have a mixture of OOC events and OOC community tools (eg: voice chats, discord, etc.) and play other games together while people are too bored to write.
2. Keep your rules very simple, and don't necessarily enforce RP etiquette as much as you enforce a 'no drama' approach (no matter who is wrong or right)
3. Make sure the theme and storylines of the sim are 'Gor-lite': don't RP anything too controversial or something that doesn't fit 'modern morals'
4. Push storylines that emphasize the 'SL Gor lore' of the genre more than what the books portray: slave-girls are children who need coddled and sometimes slain if they've been naughty, like not running to the tavern to serve when someone rings the sim bell, even if they're private slaves
5. Invite one of the three active Black Caste group, so they can AFK on the sim
6. Weekly sword fighting tournaments
7. Occasionally some raids, but make the defenses really impossible, so you'll rarely lose while defending

It's not rocket science. It'll serve the community of SL Gor at large perfectly. It's just not everyone's cup of tea (and many people grow out of it).
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Vector » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:39 am

Geary Falconer wrote:Oh dear. Some things have not changed, I see.


Nope. Same old same old. :ohgawd:
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:33 pm

I invite you gentlemen to get your hands dirty too.

Leah wrote:Why not? What's wrong with going in with friends? Most genres have pack-like concepts. Coterie. Cabal. Gang. Whatever. Why not go in with friends?


When you enter a new environment, there are opportunities to make new friends who also align with your interests.

I also happen to be inconsistent in my RP timings so I prefered not to have a group of friends waiting on me, and letting them down. With online strangers I could leave without affecting the group and that suited me best.

Leah wrote:Yeahhhhhh...lookie, I haven't touched Camarilla/MES in 5+ years, so yeah, you could say I've been avoiding those people. Instead, I've played online, which, at least from what I've seen, yields a much better experience.

IDK, I used to be able to wander into a group setting by my lonesome and be fine, but these days, I strongly prefer to have at least one or two people with me to provide context.


It's equally related to personality as roleplaying preference, you do what works for you. I didn't roleplay for socialising but I respect those who do.

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