:: Port of Hesius ::

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Sabina Takakura
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sabina Takakura » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:32 pm

Not my place. It makes me really angry, but I don't expect them to understand or change the rules. I do, however, think it needs to be said upfront in a place where people can find it to prevent this sort of thing from happening. I would never have stepped foot in the sim had I known. Yes, that includes the gay character and not gay OOC thing. I also disagree with that assessment. (I'm not really looking to have an argument right here about if it was/wasn't in the novels. That isn't the point.)

I may have misread a part of it, but it DOES sound like they're asking you to NOT ftb rape. That is also not ok. Ok sure, "rape" was part of the genre, but if I suddenly get uncomfortable in a scene, I should hope that everyone involved is adult enough to let me step back, take a breath, and maybe just not actually RP it out. From what Mel said, she expects you to RP it out.
Again, I think this is a conflict of what we want. I am a roleplayer. I want a roleplay sim. Not a lifestyle sim. Based on the rules and the website, I think it's safe to say this is a lifestyle sim.
It's not what I want, or where I would choose to spend my time.

Hope you and Quin find a home someday too!
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Leah » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:35 pm

Sabina Takakura wrote:It's not what I want, or where I would choose to spend my time.


I just know I'm going to regret saying this.

Why would you choose to spend time in Hesius when you're an Admin in Ar?
This isn't fucking Survivor. We aren't a tribe.

If I won't put up with an in-character owner trying to control my OOC life, what makes you think I'll put up with you trying to do that?

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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Oor » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:12 pm

[14:36] Melisande Moisant: [...] And it is not that they are not allowed. It is not that they are openly allowed.

I'm assuming that the second sentence is a typo here and should have read "it is that they are not openly allowed". To me, Mel seems to have explicitly stated that they have neither a problem with gay players, nor with gay characters - the proviso being that in order to preserve the nature of homosexuality in a Gorean setting (described as an abnormality; an abberation) an openly gay/femmeboy male character (free or slave) will be disallowed.

I've played in Hesius on and off for the last month. One of my scenes was with two pani slave men who happened to be passing through - both of them gay. How did I know they were gay? I'm a serial profile perv (like rly it's an addiction). In their RP they were just slave men, like any other men, and I got the impression their sexuality would only be brought to bear during sexual encounters, which, again given the nature of the genre, would be private. People seemed to be playing with them just fine. Just sayin.

There is a marked and pertinent difference between a genre-fitting male character who is gay, and a player wanting to roll in and play their femmeboy character like it's 2015 Earth and expect everyone else to bend and shape their RP to preserve the genre while playing with them. The latter would, in my experience, almost always take issue with "homophobia" if people responded in a way that would make sense for the genre. Maybe your friend is different - maybe playing his/her feminised, homosexual male slave and receiving the consequent IC homophobia that should go along with it would be fun for him to play - but I see why the risk isn't worth it for admins.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Harlequin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:36 pm

"So Don't Play Here". This isn't a social crime (Especially if the players aren't male. Not saying that's the case, but SL being Sl...). This is like finding a book that you don't like.

Put the book down. Pick up a different one.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby DarbyDollinger » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:08 am

Homosexuality in Gor is an interesting subject. In a way homosexuals in Gor are a bit like femlaws. What I mean is that both homosexuals and femlaws did exist in the books (Tarna or whatever her name is), but the problem is that Tarna was a one-off, and homosexuals, while existing in the books, and apparently not being considered anything unacceptable or exotic by regular Goreans, were rare on the planet.

So, while theoretically a BTB sim could have a Tarna-like figure, once they have a handful of them it's obviously not BTB Gor anymore. It stops feeling like the Gor in the books. Sims face a similar problem when they start being filled with gay characters.

Just another reason I'm glad I don't run a sim.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby TreatRothschild » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:52 am

I had no idea this was the case there. I have real problems with it. Many members of my family are gay or questioning.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Oor » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:07 pm

TreatRothschild wrote:I had no idea this was the case there. I have real problems with it. Many members of my family are gay or questioning.


My mom is gay, my brother-in-law is gay, my best friend is gay, and on, and on, and on... but I don't see that it makes a blind bit of difference to how homosexuality is written in a particular series of science fiction books, nor to administration's efforts to preserve the "feeling" of that genre.

If asking the player of a gay femmeboy character to be cognisant of the genre norms and not openly express their homosexuality publicly on sim is homophobic, then asking the players of free women to respect the genre norms and wear robes of concealment lest they be considered sluts is misogynistic. If asking the players of free women to respect the genre norms and wear robes of concealment lest they be considered sluts is not misogynistic, then asking the player of a gay femmeboy character to be cognisant of the genre norms and not openly express their homosexuality publicly on sim is not homophobic.

Pick one.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby TreatRothschild » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:51 pm

Gor is seen as misogynistic by many. I'm going to have to think about this.

Going to stream of consciousness.

If it is simply a matter of seen but not acknowledged, that would be in keeping with some warrior cultures in the West. Others simply had no problems with it. Who you bedded was simply not a concern. Is the main issue here the femmeboy parading in the open? I can see a closeted type of life where they do what they wish in private but are all "manned up" in public.

See the problem is that we, out here, have progressed beyond that sort of thing, despite what our religious conservative friends tell us. Now, I could see having the femmeboy parading around as long as he was willing to live with the IC consequences. Death by impalement or just out and out being killed. My problem is the banning of the character. I find it somewhat Neanderthal.

Hmm.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Harlequin » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:31 pm

It is misogynistic. Like... Thats one of the central concepts.
And the banning of people might just be because its easier. Look at the drama shitstorm now. People claiming ots against tos, etc... I don't believe for a second that if a group of folks were impaled tomorrow, or exiled, this forum wouldnt be host to a handwringing thread about it.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sabina Takakura » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:33 pm

I'm going to attempt to explain why this bothers me so much, and answer some of the questions here. I was going to leave this alone, but it bugged me so much I had to respond.

I get that they're saying gay characters and not gay people, but this is still an issue. It's an issue, because it's marginalizing a real group of people based on a subjective view of the novels.

@ Leah - Yes, I'm an admin in Ar. My character's owner, however, travels often and I go with him. I also have alts. I've always been honest about that fact. Being an admin does not preclude me from enjoying other roleplay sims. It isn't a competition to me, it's going out and enjoying various things. Being an admin OOC, does not reflect what happens IC.

@ Oor - "Maybe your friend is different - maybe playing his/her feminised, homosexual male slave and receiving the consequent IC homophobia that should go along with it would be fun for him to play - but I see why the risk isn't worth it for admins."

Yeah, I do see the risk, and yeah I get your point, but that's the heart of my issue with this. It's one thing to let things happen naturally through roleplay, another to ban on sight. Funny enough, when I met this character IC (who is feminine looking), I didn't think they were homosexual. At all. I was honestly surprised to find out later they were. This person gave every tavern slave a run for their money. At the time, I saw it purely as an aesthetic choice.
I mean, do they ban all the warriors with motorcycle tats and piercings? Probably not.

This is the issue, right here:

[14:48] Melisande Moisant: No of course not - they should roleplay out sex and rape. Those are very Gorean things. Homosexual sex and rape and behavior is not really part of the genre here. It's a genre issue, not the issue of bigotry. It is about the feel of what makes an environment Gorean. We have also asked for other special characters not to be allowed. And I'm not asking that of them at all. there are people who are transgendered who come to SL and people who have a wheelchair because of their disability who come to SL. And there are people who live with hearing loss who come to SL. These are also things you would not see in Gor. The science of medicine is beyond it. People are deal with being elderly in real life - we ask that they not play that here. Because in Gor, we had the serums. This is not bigotry. It is the genre. He simply eliminated things. There are also people who have children in real life, and they like to come here to SL to play having a family, or having kids, and they want those kids to be
[14:48] Melisande Moisant: played out. That is wonderful! We ask that it not be part of the BtB Gor sim in Porto f Hesius.

1) No of course not - they should roleplay out sex and rape. -- I do not agree with anyone saying that any slave character should roleplay out sex and rape 100% of the time. I never will. Trust me, I know it's roleplay. Roleplay is my job. I'm an actor IRL.
Occasionally though, and I can't always predict when, a scene will begin to make me uncomfortable. I reserve the right to FTB on those occasions. To date, I've never had to FTB anything, only chose to. That doesn't mean it won't happen. For my own well-being, I'll choose to say "Hey, I'd like to FTB this scene, can we fast forward and decide how it ends?" or any other variant of that.
There are tons of new players out there that don't realize FTB is a thing. How many of them sat through RP that was uncomfortable because they felt like they had to, or they'd lose their friends or RP home? It's easy to say "Well they should know better" but let's face it, cognitive distortion in response to sexual assault is a real thing. It's our duty as members of the human fucking race to not be jerks to each other.

2)And there are people who live with hearing loss who come to SL. - I had a mute slave in Gor for years. A lot of you knew her. She was a great story. Would she be banned on sight from the sim? I never once was.

3) "Oh, but what if they want to play a Kur and they say no. It's the same thing!"
No, it isn't. It isn't because Kurii aren't a real life group of people who have spent centuries being beaten, killed, tortured, and marginalized because they were born that way.

4) You wouldn't allow elves as a character in gor, because it's not in the books!
No, you wouldn't. But elves aren't a real life group of people who have spent centuries being beaten, killed, tortured, and marginalized because they were born that way.

5) Why is it not clearly in the rules?

Unless you put it across the board, screen every person who comes in, and BAN every character with gray hair, a single homosexual tendency (and that includes female, even though Mel only specifically said male gay characters), no scars, no medical conditions, no stretch marks, no hearing loss, no limb loss, etc then yes, it is bigoted. And it's bigoted in the worst way because you're hiding behind a genre. Would you ban a barbarian slave girl who grew up Jewish? Have you?
There are no albinos in the books, but I saw an albino slave girl in Hesius. Why didn't you ban her?

That's the issue. Let me guess, it's ok to send a friendly IM to the albino slave girl to tell her that's not quite fitting in with the genre and please change her skin, but you banned an outwardly gay appearing male slave.
You banned the character. You didn't ask them to change. That means this avatar cannot come back with a different looking character (one that perhaps isn't homosexual if they choose to play that). You don't even give them a chance. You banned them. Banning the character rather than asking them to change is the issue. It's an issue, because banning assumes that all the characters will be gay. It makes it an OOC issue, not an IC one.
If it makes you feel better about yourself to hide behind an outdated set of novels that were written in a time when homosexuality was a disease to be eradicated, rather than joining every other enlightened person on the earth who realizes it isn't, it's how people are born, then sorry (not sorry).. I'm still going to call you on it.

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