How has Gorean RP affected you?

For the Discussion of the Gorean Lifestyle.

How has Gorean RP affected you?

I would never consider an M/s or D/s relationship. It's just RP
10
10%
I would never consider an M/s or D/s relationship. It's just RP
10
10%
I am curious about M/s or D/s relationship beyond IC and plan to explore that curiosity in SL
3
3%
I am curious about M/s or D/s relationship beyond IC and plan to explore that curiosity in SL
3
3%
I am curious about M/s or D/s relationship beyond IC and plan to explore that curiosity in SL & RL
4
4%
I am curious about M/s or D/s relationship beyond IC and plan to explore that curiosity in SL & RL
4
4%
I am involved in an OOC M/s or D/s relationship as a result of RP
9
9%
I am involved in an OOC M/s or D/s relationship as a result of RP
9
9%
I am involved or have been involved in a RL M/s or D/s relationship (Dominant or Submissive RL) as a result of RP
5
5%
I am involved or have been involved in a RL M/s or D/s relationship (Dominant or Submissive RL) as a result of RP
5
5%
I was already living the lifestyle (Dominant or Submissive) and SL Compliments
3
3%
I was already living the lifestyle (Dominant or Submissive) and SL Compliments
3
3%
I was already living the lifestyle (Dominant or Submissive) but SL is kept strictly separate
7
7%
I was already living the lifestyle (Dominant or Submissive) but SL is kept strictly separate
7
7%
Other - Please Explain
9
9%
Other - Please Explain
9
9%
 
Total votes: 100
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Morgus » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:16 am

This is an erroneous question ... Gor m/s relationships are not like bdsm relationships ... bdsm is not Gor ... bdsm is voluntary, with "safe words" - Gor is not ... in bdsm, pain is expected, practiced, delivered intentionally ... in a m/s Gorean relationship, pain is only administered as punishment for not being pleasing or as a training device ... Gorean masters do not intentionally hurt their slaves, no more than a man would kick his dog for the fun of it ... to compare bdsm to Gor is not really realistic ...
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Mynerva » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:47 am

Morgus wrote:This is an erroneous question ... Gor m/s relationships are not like bdsm relationships ... bdsm is not Gor ... bdsm is voluntary, with "safe words" - Gor is not ... in bdsm, pain is expected, practiced, delivered intentionally ... in a m/s Gorean relationship, pain is only administered as punishment for not being pleasing or as a training device ... Gorean masters do not intentionally hurt their slaves, no more than a man would kick his dog for the fun of it ... to compare bdsm to Gor is not really realistic ...



Hm, if gor is a subset of bdsm or not? That really is a matter of opinion.

Gor in the books - the slavery is not voluntary - and that is ok because it is just a fantasy. Not different then killing 100s of Zombies in some zombie movie.

Gor in sl? That is very much voluntary. The cross in the corner is the ultimate safe word. All things that are done in sl are voluntary - no one can be forced to do anything in sl.

Gor in rl? That has to be voluntary - and it has to be safe, sane and consensual. If it is not - it is not only a crime but also highly immoral.

So yes - as soon as gor is taken into rl - the bdsm rules have to apply!
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Glaucon » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:53 pm

There has always been a duality about 'Gor' in relation to bdsm. Sure, there are clear differences, but... Gor is also a fictional story set in a far-away place with wars and politics and flying saucers. Bdsm isn't.

Those that sometimes bother to read my posts will probably know that I take it as a fact that Norman has a 'message' that is (or is supposed to be) relevant to us, in real life. But the slavery described in the books isn't really that message. That is part of a way of life of another world, part of his fictional gorean anthropology. Clearly, rules about the trade in and ownership of slaves are quite important to gorean slavery. But how could they be relevant to us? I seriously do not think Norman was claiming that slave-trading was a good thing, something we should start doing.

While it is clear to me that Norman often talks about what is wrong with 'earth' when talking about Gor, that doesn't mean he ever intended his 'gorean way of life' (or relationships) as a life-style, as a blue-print of how people should live their lives. So, I find it odd to look at Gor as some sort of 'alternative' to a bdsm lifestyle (whatever that is, really, because that label seems to describe 'practises' more than a particular life-style, I'd say).

I have always found the whole idea of Gor as a life-style extremely puzzling. Then again, I think the same about Klingon life-stylers. It just seems like one of those weird affectations that came in on the slip-stream of the late sixties and early seventees, the whole 'alternative life-style' thing. Taking being a big fan of something to a silly level and then giving it an air of seriousness by calling it a life-style choice.
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Leah » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:12 pm

Glaucon wrote:I have always found the whole idea of Gor as a life-style extremely puzzling. Then again, I think the same about Klingon life-stylers. It just seems like one of those weird affectations that came in on the slip-stream of the late sixties and early seventees, the whole 'alternative life-style' thing. Taking being a big fan of something to a silly level and then giving it an air of seriousness by calling it a life-style choice.


Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't John Norman himself said that trying to be "Gorean" in real life, and the "lifestyle" in general, is insane? I mean, I thought he was super against the entire idea, and thought it was lunacy.
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Morgus » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:15 pm

Yes, he does, and he is amazed at what he calls "the Gorean phenomenon" ... he in no way advocates real life slavery ... even life-stylers recognize the unreality of Gor on earth because of societal restraints, and common sense ... but bdsm exists for pain as part of its lifestyle, pain intentionally inflicted at the request of one and enjoyed by another ... pain in the Gorean lifestyle is used only as punishment, and neither actually enjoys it ... indeed, pain is rarely used in Gorean the life style because the level of punishment used in the books would certainly be reason for jail time here ... bdsm-ers may think of themselves as "Gorean" but those in true as-allowed-by-earthern-standards Gorean lifestyles would not consider themselves in the bdsm life style ... some may participate in bdsm activities with others at times - that is a personal choice for activity - but the life style itself has a major difference from bdsm ...
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Glaucon » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:12 am

Oh, I never said I held Norman accountable for the life-styler stuff, and he did make some remarks about it, though in his letters, he didn't sound as if he was opposed to the 'gorean phenomenon' (which didn't strike me as quite the same thing, though he is rather vague, as he is about 'the gorean experiment').

As I see it, there are two different things people describing themselves as 'being a gorean life-styler' tend to mean. One of these is them taking some interpretation of what they feel is a worthwhile 'lesson' from the books and applying it to their RL somehow. Most likely, to some aspects of their RL relationships. It might work for them, since there is most likely at least SOMETHING to Norman's ideas, or else his books would likely not make such a lasting impression on some people. This could take all manner of shape or form and it isn't quite clear to me how this amounts to a 'life-style'. I'd call it 'taking inspiration'. This might look a bit like something bdsm-ish, though, clearly, it would not be the same (as far as I am aware, bdsm generally doesn't share Norman's conservative/anti-egalitarian/anti-feminist outlook, for example).

The other way would seem to be the thing Morgus seems to be into: "true as-allowed-by-earthern-standards Gorean lifestyles". That would seem to be based on a more literal interpretation. I don't really see Norman endorsing that sort of thing in any way. Why would he? It makes no sense for him to do that, because we do not live on his fictional planet. Whatever floats a person's boat, of course, but to me that sort of thing pretty much sounds rather alike to people meeting up, donning cloaks and plastic armor, swords and elf-ears and playing out being elves or orcs or whatever. Though maybe with more orc-elf sex and kneeling.
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Mynerva » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:14 pm

Glaucon wrote:There has always been a duality about 'Gor' in relation to bdsm. Sure, there are clear differences, but... Gor is also a fictional story set in a far-away place with wars and politics and flying saucers. Bdsm isn't.


No, it is not. But when people begin to discuss gorean lifestyle it often involves some kind of power exchange relationship. If that happens in real life and is taken out of the realm of fantasy - the safe, sane and consensual rules have to apply - as they apply to any other kind of power exchange relationship - and voila - it fits under the bdsm umbrella ;tybow:
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Mynerva » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:20 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Those that sometimes bother to read my posts will probably know that I take it as a fact that Norman has a 'message' that is (or is supposed to be) relevant to us, in real life. But the slavery described in the books isn't really that message.



That might be true. But you also have to see - a lot of the life styler types are heavily into the master/slave thing and those kinds of relationships are usually a central point of their lifestyle.

I know - the whole philosophy thing....they abuse Nietzsche here and there ;) Not sure if you believe a connection can be made to Nietzsche - I believe his philosophy is the opposite of what the gorean novels describe. BUT - if we begin to discuss Nietzsche - we will most certainly kill this forum DEAD.....
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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Leah » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:22 pm

Mynerva wrote:
Glaucon wrote:There has always been a duality about 'Gor' in relation to bdsm. Sure, there are clear differences, but... Gor is also a fictional story set in a far-away place with wars and politics and flying saucers. Bdsm isn't.


No, it is not. But when people begin to discuss gorean lifestyle it often involves some kind of power exchange relationship. If that happens in real life and is taken out of the realm of fantasy - the safe, sane and consensual rules have to apply - as they apply to any other kind of power exchange relationship - and voila - it fits under the bdsm umbrella ;tybow:


Oh lord, if we start talking about this, we may reignite the "fearsome debate" about whether D/s falls under the umbrella of BDSM. >.>

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Re: How has Gorean RP affected you?

Postby Mynerva » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:30 pm

Morgus wrote:... even life-stylers recognize the unreality of Gor on earth because of societal restraints, and common sense ... but bdsm exists for pain as part of its lifestyle, pain intentionally inflicted at the request of one and enjoyed by another ... pain in the Gorean lifestyle is used only as punishment, and neither actually enjoys it...



You obviously know very little about bdsm if you reduce it to receiving and inflicting pain for pleasure. Bdsm includes all kinds of life styles and practices - some of them never inflict any kind of pain. It ranges from 24/7 tpe relationships to breaking out the pink fluffy handcuffs on certain occasions.

I assume you are a life-styler, right? Maybe you can explain something to me. What does the following mean....

Morgus wrote:This is an erroneous question ... Gor m/s relationships are not like bdsm relationships ... bdsm is not Gor ... bdsm is voluntary, with "safe words" - Gor is not ...


....if you now agree that consent is always needed in real life?

Why is this difference important if we all agree any kind of m/s exchange requires consent in real life?

I am really interested to know - so please do not feel like I am trying to insult you or questions your life-style.
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