Sex with Free Women

[Mynerva]

From an archetypical point of view there's a clear distinction between the sexuality of the sl@ve girl and that of the free woman. Sl@ves thrive in their profound sexuality, free women dont and in fact it is that profound and uncontrollable sexuality that makes the collar so sweet to wear. In comparison, free women are frigid, having their societal role deny them the truth of their nature. Or at least that's what Norman would say. And that truth, in its perfect manifestation, that of the Gorean sl@ve girl, is what makes the free women hate their collared sisters. Yes, some are hotter than others, the books say so, yes of course they can find love and a meaningful relationship with another free man, but, again from an archetypical point of view, they wont be able to neither be sexually fulfilled, like the sl@ve is, neither make a free man aroused, to the degree a sl@ve would. Norman uses the dynamics between free women and sl@ves, again and again and again, to make the point that Gorean social norms aside, a woman's nature would have her on her knees, fulfilled and happy. She would have it so and the men would have it so as well.

We dont have to like it, agree with it, even roleplay with it, but that's what he says and it makes perfect sense within the constraints of his fantasy world. I underline the world fantasy because someone mentioned the Priest Kings....

...and about a slave being free to be made a FC. Being a slave is not simply the fact that a woman is enslaved, wears a collar, does not have a choice - it is a psychological state of being. When a woman leaves that role and take on the role of FC that psychology would change....maybe not instantly but it would eventually.

I want to emphasize - I also do not care how other people play their role. I have played many things in a gorean context that are much more "risky" than being a secret slave or a FW that is a slut in the bedroom. But I would not come here and try to pull some quote to prove that I am doing it BTB and that my rp is perfectly good in that gorean context. I also make sure that I do not step on people's toes in rp when I do things that are a bit out of the norm - and that I do not invite consequences that might not be welcome.

[Thyri]

In regards to the duck analogy.... if its a duck in private and a swan in public.... is it a dressed up duck? Or a stripped down swan?

I know when I played thyri in private as a sexualized being that she ran the risk of having a collar around her neck. its a part of a storyline that's been running for near two years now with thyri, the dichotomy of having slave instincts and having to be that icy cold free woman in public. How the hatred of slaves manifests when they're sexual. How she treats slaves who are sexual. Its a part of that role thats taken a long time to develop.

Free women do deny nature's instinct to breed. Some deny it with every fiber of their being (those FW like Verona for example) and that is GOOD for them. It creates a balance. Then there are the more sexual FW who run the risk with every flirtatious word that they speak that the next one may land them in a collar. As long as they recognize the risk they run with that choice of path, then they are prepared to accept the consequences of those actions and the eventuality of their slavery.

I make no bones about that thyri will wind up being a slave again. But its on her timetable now. She could in theory throw herself down to the next man that came across a dock and scream her submission. But she doesnt because she is rather enjoying being free, but, she knows her risk. She knows the precious gift that freedom is. She knows that with every sexualized feeling she encounters that the collar becomes that much closer and she fights that. I think that's a natural normal fight for an average FW. Some disagree with me. Some view the FW role and the villianess who is 100% sexuallly inert and not only loathes sex, but views sex as something that is the root of all evil. And thats FINE. I choose my role to be more about the struggle of remaining free rather than how to be the most vile wretched creature imaginable.

But its my choice of my role. If someone chooses to be a highly sexualized character, fine, let them roll those dice. I think one of the main tenants that we're forgetting in all of these debates is that we let the men set our boundries. If the men permit women to slut around in robes and be sexual in public, then its the men who allow that behaviour to happen. Let the men praise the FW who choose the struggle or choose the villianess. Let the preferred behaviour be determined by men, and let the consequences come as they may.

[DarbyDollinger]

The problem with arguments like this is that people have a tendency to argue past each other. They argue with something they think the other person is saying, rather that what they actually did say. No one is arguing that most free women are 'promiscuous' or sluts in robes', at least not in the sense that the phrase is normally used.

What they are arguing is that in a free companionship, a Gorean man would expect more than a just frigid cold fish. And by the same token, that the frigidity of free women tends to be overplayed, at least in the privacy of their own home.

A large part of the reason that we're arguing that is because the way that free women are described in the books ('frigid, frigid, frigid') is completely at odds with the way they actually act in the books. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Norman actually knows what the word frigid means.

Websters defines it as: "marked or abnormal sexual indifference especially in a woman."

There are any number of examples in the books where free women are anything but frigid, many of which have been mentioned here. Other ones off the top of my head include Talena's dance for Tarl in Tarnsman (probably the hottest scene I've read in the books, by the way), and the reaction of the free women at Jason's auction in Fighting Slave:

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"We are ready now, are we not," asked the Lady Tima, "to remove his clothing?"
There were affirmative shouts from the tiers.
The Lady Tima nodded to the two men who held me. They shifted their grip to my wrists.
The Lady Tima then signaled again to the burly fellow who, with a knife, from the back, cutting at the back of the coat, and at the sleeves, cut and tore away the coat. He threw it into the dish of burning, oil-soaked wood. He then removed, similarly, my jacket, which, too, he threw into the dish of burning wood. I looked at the coat and jacket, burning. They had been things I had had from Earth. The men who held me returned their grip to my arms.
"Morel Let us see more of him!" cried a woman. ...

"Look at his eyes," called another. "He does not look like a slave."
"Perhaps he is a master," said another woman, her voice trembling.
"Would you sell us a master for our boudoir?" inquired another. I heard several women gasp, taken aback at the boldness of the question. I was startled. There had been something unmistakable in their response, an expression of excitement, of thrilled, scandalized pleasure. Was that what they desired, I wondered, a master in their boudoir? But if that were true surely they knew that then they, in their own boudoir, would be only slaves."

If that is frigid behaviour then Norman is misusing the word. He's misusing it in the same sort of way that he misuses the word 'rape' so that someone can 'beg to be raped', which is of course nonsense. Rape is by definition non-consensual.

What that Fighting Slave quote is an example of is women with a relatively normal sexual appetite. A sexual appetite probably not that different from the average woman on Earth. And of course no one would call the average woman on Earth frigid, right?

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"Slave girls are unlike and beyond all other women. Earth with its frigid, competitive, frustrated females, trying to be men, has not even prepared one for the understanding that such fantastic, owned beauties could exist." - Fighting Slave

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"Women of Earth, I knew, sensitive to a heritage of insane values, of antibiological acculturation, sometimes competed with one another in their attempts to appear frigid, a competition which was often carried into the bedrooms of their husbands. Few wives, I knew, would dare to let themselves appear to their husbands as a hot, panting bitch." - Slave Girl

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"No wonder then that the human male, on Earth, often thought of the women of the species as being, however desirable, sexless creatures, being sexually minimal and torpid, as being, in effect, inert and frigid." - Prize

Really? Sexless? He must hang around with different Earth girls than the ones I do. Or maybe they're just like that with him. Or more likely, 'frigid' is just a Normanism that roughly translated to the rest of us as 'normal'.

[Mynerva]

What that Fighting Slave quote is an example of is women with a relatively normal sexual appetite. A sexual appetite probably not that different from the average woman on Earth. And of course no one would call the average woman on Earth frigid, right?

.

All the average earth women that were brought to Gor learned how sexual they can be - when enslaved! So the sexuality of the average earth woman would be considered "a cold fish" compared to the amazing sexuality of gorean slave who has learned her slavery. I do not understand why it always has to be extremes - either frigid...or super slut and the same as a slave. There is a lot of room between those two extremes. I am pretty sure many, many couples have a intimate and satisfying sex life without the woman being what Norman describes when he goes on and on about the sexuality of a slave.

[Josef of Ar]

Really? Sexless? He must hang around with different Earth girls than the ones I do. Or maybe they're just like that with him. Or more likely, 'frigid' is just a Normanism that roughly translated to the rest of us as 'normal'.

In comparison to a Gorean slave, women of Earth, in general are both sexless and frigid. What you're missing here is that in the context of Gorean society he is accurate but because you're filtering Gor through Earth it seems off.

[~pancake~]

This is a silly debate really, because people are reading far more into it then they should be. I am guilty of this myself. I internalized this and then after taking a step back realized this isn't about anything that I'm playing. This is about people that won't take responsibility for their actions and want to have their cake and eat it too. To play both sides, so to speak, and men not man enough to enforce the culture in which we play.

I don't know of any of the people playing FW that are responding to this thread as those types.

Excellent point Bree. I too have done it myself.
Lord every time there is a cookie cutter kajira thread or capwhore panther comment I feel so compelled to speak up and explain, often repeatedly, that I don't play my characters like that. I think it's difficult for anyone who sees a topic about a type of character not to get defensive, even if the people posting have never met your character and can't possibly be talking about your character. I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure I have never played with any of the FW characters mentioned here.

It's funny when you look at the points people are standing by, on supposedly opposite sides, they are exactly the same but because it's being argued from a "I don't play it badly" vs "I've seen being played badly" it's hard to see that.

It's all well and fine that some of those posting here as their FW characters to explain that they aren't playing that way, and I'm quite confident they aren't, but that doesn't mean I haven't run across some pretty questionable FW roleplay in my years in SL Gor. I'm sure they have too if they really think about it, we all have, and it cheapens these women's RP as a more realistic FW almost more than it does any other role.

[Leah]

Pancake, I don't think anyone here would ever, ever describe you - or, for that matter, any of the other players of kajirae who post in the forums here, as "cookie-cutter." You are all far too articulate, too self-possessed and just downright intelligent to ever fall into that label. Honestly, I think that "cookie-cutter" is just another term for "ignorant about the books/world of Gor."

[Garbonius]

I take issue with that... "weak men". Almost as if as men, we are REQUIRED to collar a woman who shows the slightest bit of spunk, or we're not men.

There are any number of facts you have to consider, in any case. Perhaps we simply don't want the woman. Perhaps we feel she would make a poor slave, and it's not worth the effort. Perhaps there are connections, as in a sister or a daughter. Perhaps we do not find her pleasing to look at, or to listen to. Hell, perhaps we have a cold and don't feel like chasing down a squawking free woman in the middle of town.

To insist that we're weak any time we make the choice not to collar a woman who - by your deigning - deserves to be collared.. it almost makes us beholden to you. Takes OUR choice away. And honestly, I feel that flies in the face of the books more than anything that's been said in this thread so far.

[Sacha]

This thread is absolutely comedy gold. Just keep it up.

[Kaitlin]

Capital S wrote:
This thread is absolutely comedy gold. Just keep it up.

Swipes some popcorn to watch as well from her ivory tower hoping no one else says Kait anything.
19 pages on a free women having sex...who knew.