Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Discussions related to Free Women
User avatar
Tamar Luminos
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:06 pm
SL Name: Lamar Luminos
Caste: Gorean Subversive
Role: Roleplayer
Home Stone: Turia
Owner: Harlequin said put him

Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby Tamar Luminos » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:10 pm

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/report-saudi-womens-lives-dictated-by-male-guardianship/ar-BBupK8S?li=BBnba9K

Reading this, and being sad and horrified that women are still forced to live like this in so-called civilized parts of the world, it struck me that this is probably how Norman envisioned the typical life of a free woman- completely subject to the will of her 'guardian' or nearest male relative. I think this is a fact that escapes many people roleplaying in Gor, just how oppressive it would be for women in general, even free. I remember one quote in particular that mentioned how Koroba was a little less oppressive- that in most cities a free woman would have to get permission from a male relative to simply leave her house. Of course in the Gorean utopia, Norman portrays it as a normal part of society, with women accepting and being relatively content with their lack of status and fearful and respectful of free men but this is not something I have seen played out very often.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
http://clockworkkitteh.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Oor
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:33 pm
SL Name: Oor Breen
Home Stone: ROIAF: GoT RP

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby Oor » Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:24 pm

Tamar Luminos wrote:http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/report-saudi-womens-lives-dictated-by-male-guardianship/ar-BBupK8S?li=BBnba9K

Reading this, and being sad and horrified that women are still forced to live like this in so-called civilized parts of the world, it struck me that this is probably how Norman envisioned the typical life of a free woman- completely subject to the will of her 'guardian' or nearest male relative. I think this is a fact that escapes many people roleplaying in Gor, just how oppressive it would be for women in general, even free. I remember one quote in particular that mentioned how Koroba was a little less oppressive- that in most cities a free woman would have to get permission from a male relative to simply leave her house. Of course in the Gorean utopia, Norman portrays it as a normal part of society, with women accepting and being relatively content with their lack of status and fearful and respectful of free men but this is not something I have seen played out very often.


From the Wiki page on women's right in Saudi:

In 2008, Rowdha Yousef and other Saudi women launched a petition “My Guardian Knows What's Best for Me," which gathered over 5,000 signatures. The petition defended the status quo and requested punishment for activists demanding "equality between men and women, [and] mingling between men and women in mixed environments".


So there are women who live in these cultures that are seen as oppressive who see the guardianship as a positive thing. Difficult to fathom from the perspective of a Western woman, but I think it's perhaps relevant to your point about Norman writing it as a normal part of society where women are content and accepting of their status. And...

The namus of a male includes the protection of the females in his family. He provides for them, and in turn the women's honor (sometimes called "ird") reflects on him.


In pretty much every culture that is seen as oppressive to women, a little more investigation will almost always reveal that what's happening is a rights/responsibilities trade-off. In the case of Saudi, the man is responsible for providing for the women in his family and if she steps out of line he is the one judged for it on a societal level. That's not to say that it's better than an equity of opportunity situation, but it's not as simple as "oppressed women".

Similarly, historically in the West, women had to get their husbands' signatures in order to make financial transactions etc., which seems utterly ridiculous until you realise that he was socially and legally responsible for her. If she ran up a huge debt, he would be the one who'd take the fall (regardless of whether she was wealthy in her own right) if it couldn't be paid back, up to and including being jailed. Again, it's a rights/responsibilities trade off rather than a straight up MEN R EVUL AND LOL AT WOMEN'S SUFFERING deal.

In that way, I think Norman sort of departs from realism when it comes to gender disparities, because in his world (IMO, and correct me if you see it differently!) the gender disparity isn't so much cultural as it is "natural order". I take issue with Norman's female characters, really. I know there are people who disagree with me, but I just see them - pretty much all of them - as madonna-whore caricatures. The existence of the slave, the way that slavery is at once decried and revered, the way that men (even those close to a free woman) would tend to celebrate when order is restored and a "natural slave" is collared, rather than be truly shamed, shunned, punished, outcast because of their relative's fall from grace, seems to me to remove half of the "rights and responsibilities" transaction that occurs in cultures (modern and historical) where women are culturally (and/or legally) required to defer to male relatives. Basically, without men being held accountable for the behaviour of the women for whom they are responsible (and over whom they are therefore granted power), the "oppressed women" role makes little sense, when you try to take the world seriously - such little sense that a patriarchal society where men do not have far more responsibility that women (and indeed a cultural responsibility to be the protectors of women) has never historically occurred.
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

Flix
User avatar
Tamar Luminos
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:06 pm
SL Name: Lamar Luminos
Caste: Gorean Subversive
Role: Roleplayer
Home Stone: Turia
Owner: Harlequin said put him

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby Tamar Luminos » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:11 pm

I think you're right about that...I think Norman took some of the tenets of patriarchal societies around the world and took his idea of 'natural order' and created his Gorean Utopia, a fantasy ideal where the men are naturally and rightfully in charge of the women in their lives, up to and including killing/enslaving them. In real life, it's horrifying, especially in 2016. But in a fantasy setting, it's pure escapism, and I try to remember the time period from which is sprang as well- backlash against the prudishness of the 50's, and exploring the sexual norms of the more liberated 60's and 70's, but putting his own skew upon it- with men and women being sexual beings, most fulfilled and content when the natural order is upheld.

I just find the real life versions of that sort of 'natural order' to be pretty awful, and yes I'm aware that in those cultures, there are many women who prefer it that way, but when you hear about things like Boko Haram, genital mutilation, acid attacks, ritual stoning, and marrying off 11 year olds who will in many cases go on to die in childbirth, it's just a sobering reminder of what the women in those cultures are facing.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
http://clockworkkitteh.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Oor
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:33 pm
SL Name: Oor Breen
Home Stone: ROIAF: GoT RP

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby Oor » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:22 pm

Tamar Luminos wrote:I just find the real life versions of that sort of 'natural order' to be pretty awful, and yes I'm aware that in those cultures, there are many women who prefer it that way, but when you hear about things like Boko Haram, genital mutilation, acid attacks, ritual stoning, and marrying off 11 year olds who will in many cases go on to die in childbirth, it's just a sobering reminder of what the women in those cultures are facing.


Yup, I agree. Sorry, my post was more a comment on the realism of Norman's world in terms of real historical and modern patriarchies, not my idea of what a good society should look like! I mightn't have made that clear.

I mean I'm all for women surrendering whatever rights and privileges they want within the confines of their personal relationships... when they do so as a consenting adult with an "out" and a legal system that won't tolerate real abuse.
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

Flix
User avatar
Danika Stenvaag
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:31 pm
SL Name: Danika Stenvaag
Caste: Panther
Role: Valkyrie Torva Chieftess
Home Stone: Valkyrie Forest
Contact:

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby Danika Stenvaag » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:58 am

It's scary what we have to endure in this so called civilized world. I don't always feel 100 percent safe stepping out alone. I feel the prejudice and the need to prove my worth and credibility... I'm sure way more than I think men need to do. And I realize it's even more terrifying what women suffer in non western countries. I realize I live in a culture where we are traditionally under the thumb of men and I understand it's way worse for women in other countries. In another thread about the plight of Sarah, a 17 year old girl sent off to a Christian boarding school after she showed up at her prom with another girl, I was angrily accused of being anti-Christian by other posters. I openly admit I'm a pagan girl, but I'm not anti-Christian or anti-anyone's religion. I'm anti-intolerance expressed in religion. Especially the misogyny historically found in Christianity and Islam.

I've read here in the so called advanced western civilization, the USA, women had to have the permission of men to get loans, buy a house or car, do financial transactions. We couldn't even vote until well into the 20th century. We still don't get paid for the same work men do. Religion is often used to frame us as simple-minded, weaker, less important than men. My bringing this up doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the horrors women suffer in other parts of the world at the hands of men and religious tradition. Their horror makes our cause no less important. I just don't want to see us slip backwards. We have some states enacting religious freedom laws where none is needed. Christianity has always had the run of the store, they aren't victims. They never were. They just don't like sharing space in a growing multi-cultural world and want to have more rights to discriminate against others outside their faith and literal interpretation of their holy books. Descrimination against black people, gay people, women, you can count on religious intolerance to lead the charge in the name of God.

One of the posters was so offended and so sure I was insulting his Christian faith in the Sarah thread he said I needed to take down the thread on the SL Gor forum site. I didn't. When I returned, it had been removed. Never was I attacking his religion. I was against intolerance. And my post was truthful. He even broke out the scissors analogy and the cutting of the clitoris which pretty much ruined my day thinking about it and wasn't a fair comparison to our discussion. I posted a picture of the Taliban sitting in President Reagan's White House office to show how fickled we are as a society and frame things to suit our agenda. He posted back the Taliban didn't exist back then. But they did exist, same people and organization, only under another name; the Mujahideen was Taliban, freedom fighters first against Russia, then under a different name against USA. Stuff like this leads to circular arguments. But what do I know? I'm just a girl too stupid to think for myself.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.heretication.info/_womensrights.html

And this is why I argue for my rights as a free woman. I don't want us to slip backwards like "that other religion over there in the east" everyone fears. Recently, a museum opened up in Kentucky built as a copy of Noah's Ark. It got some of their funding from the state government (which is not legal, that's government favoring one religion over another). Basically it comes down to a creationist view of the world. There is no way possible every species of life form in the world could be carried on an ark even 10 times that size. The story is just a parable, an allegory, not reality. I'm majoring in geography, with a minor in anthropology. I happen to also like geology and can see the history of the earth in layers in the rocks going back billions of years. I can see the history of humanity in some of the digs I went on with my class. This is reality. Use biblical stories for inspiration, not to hold us back. I was not created from the rib of a man.
Image
What is hidden in snow, is revealed at thaw. ~ Viking proverb

http://www.valkyriepanthers.com
User avatar
Anarch Allegiere
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 am
SL Name: Anarch Allegiere

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:19 am

Danika Stenvaag wrote:We still don't get paid for the same work men do.


Pretty sure that is debunked populist rhetoric from the feminist side.

On a high end management level however it is a lot more complicated because people work by custom tailored contracts which are heavily negotiated sometimes, between employer and company and while some women are just as stubborn and good negotiators as men, they seem to be rare personalities.

Also, women seem to work less hours, take more days and time off in my experience.

It usually explains why in 'overall statistics' there are wage gaps. Not because there is ill intent or evil men are giggling in their fists at how incompetent women are in the workplace. That age seems mostly long gone, at worst some minor mostly harmless cultural habits linger. (such as sexist jokes etc) Of course, awareness is important though, it's easy for me to think that I'd never disadvantage a woman at the workplace just because she is a woman, so I always remain vigilant and critical about my own judgments in that regard.
User avatar
Qingwen
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:32 am
SL Name: Akane Nacht

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby Qingwen » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:22 am

Tamar Luminos wrote:http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/report-saudi-womens-lives-dictated-by-male-guardianship/ar-BBupK8S?li=BBnba9K

Reading this, and being sad and horrified that women are still forced to live like this in so-called civilized parts of the world, it struck me that this is probably how Norman envisioned the typical life of a free woman- completely subject to the will of her 'guardian' or nearest male relative. I think this is a fact that escapes many people roleplaying in Gor, just how oppressive it would be for women in general, even free. I remember one quote in particular that mentioned how Koroba was a little less oppressive- that in most cities a free woman would have to get permission from a male relative to simply leave her house. Of course in the Gorean utopia, Norman portrays it as a normal part of society, with women accepting and being relatively content with their lack of status and fearful and respectful of free men but this is not something I have seen played out very often.



I live in SE Asia, in a city where there is a pot-pourri of customs and cultural influences. Women play an integral and powerful role in all of these cultures. Actually, they always have, in terms of their social influence, if less visibly in politics. In the 1950s and 60s, women in this region lobbied for equal protection and treatment under the law (partly struggling against post-colonial heritage from Western countries.. ahem), and protection for the most economically vulnerable in society (multiple wives for example, who could be discarded on a whim). In the space of a couple of decades, many obstacles to equal work, family, health, educational and social rights crumbled, because they simply made no logical sense, and held back development on all fronts in a rapidly globalising economy.

As it says in the article:
"The Human Rights Watch study takes on increasing significance as the kingdom works to implement its "Vision 2030" and "National Transformation Plan" to wean the country off its dependence on oil, including government targets to boost women's participation in the workforce."

There ya go. Want to help women in the middle east? buy less oil. Economics trumps tradition.
User avatar
Oor
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:33 pm
SL Name: Oor Breen
Home Stone: ROIAF: GoT RP

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby Oor » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:31 pm

Danika Stenvaag wrote:It's scary what we have to endure in this so called civilized world.


You're a rich, white, Western female. You are a member of literally the single most privileged group that has ever existed.

Danika Stenvaag wrote:I don't always feel 100 percent safe stepping out alone.


You're not 100% safe. Nobody is. Just be glad you're not a dude - they're way more likely to be victims of violence when they leave home.

Danika Stenvaag wrote:I feel the prejudice and the need to prove my worth and credibility... I'm sure way more than I think men need to do.


No. You do need to prove your worth, but not more than men need to. Men are just conditioned from birth to realise that they must have worth if they want to be valued, so it doesn't come as such a shock when they step out into the world and are expected to be competent.

Danika Stenvaag wrote:We couldn't even vote until well into the 20th century.


Women and men were historically disenfranchised. Many women campaigned against their own enfranchisement, because they feared having the responsibilities (the draft) that went along with the right to vote. Of course, nearly a century later, women have their enfranchisement and have never been expected to sign the draft, whereas men still have to legally commit to putting their life on the line for their country.

Danika Stenvaag wrote:We still don't get paid for the same work men do.


We do. In fact, in the West, women under 30 are out-earning men of the same age by a not-inconsiderable amount - which might be something to do with the fact that girls are doing better in primary and secondary education (which is failing boys in a big way) and make up a disproportionate percentage of college attendees and graduates. No campaigns to reverse these inequalities yet, though!

Women are not paid less than men for the same work. They tend to earn less than men, as a general, big-picture rule, because they value things like work-life balance more than men and have less interest in specialising, working overtime or negotiating higher salaries.

The efforts that are underway to encourage women into STEM fields might even out the over 30s earnings a little more, but I don't see women suddenly changing across the board and valuing a high salary and the prestige of expertise to the extent that they'll make the necessary work-life balance sacrifices to attain them. Maybe soon the people responsible for the "recruit women into STEM and boardrooms" drives will look at the other end of the spectrum, and start working toward equality in construction, sewage working, refuse collection and other massively male-dominated fields. Maybe at some point in the future men won't be 93% of workplace fatalities.

Then again, maybe that's just another way in which women are victims, huh? Like the soon-to-be POTUS once said, the real victims of male death (war) are the women left behind, not the men bleeding out on the battle field.

Prejudice, my arsehole.

Danika Stenvaag wrote:Never was I attacking his religion. I was against intolerance. And my post was truthful.



What you said was obviously going to cause offense to someone of that religion. Obviously. And don't get me wrong, I am totally down with your right to offend whoever you damn well please, but don't play the blinky-eyed innocent when that person you purposely tried to offend becomes offended. Suck it up.

Danika Stenvaag wrote:Here's an interesting link:

http://www.heretication.info/_womensrights.html



You gotta stop posting any old shit link that backs up your argument. It's not smart.

Danika Stenvaag wrote:And this is why I argue for my rights as a free woman. I don't want us to slip backwards like "that other religion over there in the east" everyone fears.



Islam. Why didn't you just say Islam?
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

Flix
User avatar
serene mistwood
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:56 am
SL Name: Izzy
Role: Social Gadfly
AkA: Isobel Mynx
Location: Earth

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby serene mistwood » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:02 am

Oor wrote:
Danika Stenvaag wrote:We still don't get paid for the same work men do.


We do. In fact, in the West, women under 30 are out-earning men of the same age by a not-inconsiderable amount - which might be something to do with the fact that girls are doing better in primary and secondary education (which is failing boys in a big way) and make up a disproportionate percentage of college attendees and graduates. No campaigns to reverse these inequalities yet, though!

Women are not paid less than men for the same work. They tend to earn less than men, as a general, big-picture rule, because they value things like work-life balance more than men and have less interest in specialising, working overtime or negotiating higher salaries.

The efforts that are underway to encourage women into STEM fields might even out the over 30s earnings a little more, but I don't see women suddenly changing across the board and valuing a high salary and the prestige of expertise to the extent that they'll make the necessary work-life balance sacrifices to attain them. Maybe soon the people responsible for the "recruit women into STEM and boardrooms" drives will look at the other end of the spectrum, and start working toward equality in construction, sewage working, refuse collection and other massively male-dominated fields. Maybe at some point in the future men won't be 93% of workplace fatalities.



You are right.. women under 30 are out-earning men in the west, but only for the actual measly sum of approx. £1100pa (which probably goes to that 5% tax luxury tampon item) according to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), (comparative earnings of men and women between 2006 and 2013). Once they hit 30 men bring in approx. £8,775 more than a woman of the same age.

And teenagers? well... under 20's womens salaries fell by more than a quarter (26.4%) over the eight-year period studied, compared with a drop of only 1% for young men.

Education doesn't seem to be effective against the gender pay gap either. At every level of academic achievement, women’s median earnings are less than men’s median earnings, and in some cases, the gender pay gap is larger at higher levels of education.

It's true women are paid similar earnings when they work the same job and they have similar experience and abilities - however, this is often used to skew and gloss over a lingering practice of discrimination where 54,000 women in the UK still feel forced to leave their job early every year as a result of poor treatment after they have a baby.
Unequal caring responsibilities, labour market segregation by profession and men dominating the best paid roles are of course issues that are being tackled and improving, slowly... but lets not pretend that gender discrimination (as well as age and ethnicity) doesn't still exist alongside those issues in the workplace where pay is concerned.
"She still had all of her marbles, though every one of them was a bit odd and rolled asymmetrically." Firebirds Rising.
User avatar
DarbyDollinger
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:43 am
SL Name: Darby Dollinger
Caste: Slaver
Home Stone: Amongst the ruins of Salernum.
Location: Port Kar

Re: Real Life example of how I imagine FW's lives to be

Postby DarbyDollinger » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:02 pm

Just about every year in the last few years I've driven and camped up in the majestic mountains of Oman in the Arabian peninsular. The people up there don't like seeing men wearing shorts let alone women, and a lot of the women there are stuck indoors for a lot of the time. It's very conservative and the culture hasn't changed much for hundreds of years, but technology is inevitably changing it. Young women can now talk to young men through whatapp or some other chat program and their parents have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing was happening in Saudi Arabia, and the next generation was more relaxed about women's place in society.

Return to “Free Women”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron