New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

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Garrgon
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Garrgon » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:17 pm

TrollinWitMyHomies wrote:Actually, I was completely clear on the process. I know that not every flagged post generates a warning or an edit. I think that this is actually what I take most issue with. I believe that more should be looked at than simply that flagged post. The entire thread should be taken into account and the words on the screen should be taken at face value. Assumptions and 'reading between the lines' should not play a part in determining if a warning or even an edit is issued. Is it a lot of work? Yes. But, I think if a fair, full picture view is to be gained, then that is really the only way.


I agree.

When I receive a flag I look at several things: The name of the person flagging the post, the name of the person who was flagged, the context of the post that was flagged in and of itself, the relationship between flagger and flaggee. Some of the flagged posts are very obviously an insult, off topic, etc and don't need much more then a quick look. Others lay in more of a gray area. For those posts, I do read the whole thread if I wasn't already following it. Everything is taken into account not just a pointed finger and a "HE'S BEING BAD!" complaint. If I did it any other way, I'd be failing at my job. This is why I tend to temporarily lock the threads that are still generating flaggable posts while I'm looking the thread over - a sure sign it's being worked on and I need the posts to stop so I can get everything dealt with and resolved.

I may be missing your objections since I feel that in your comments of how you think moderating should work, you're describing how we do work. I'm aware that there were some problems with the moderation and with other moderators in the past, but we have a really good set up and great people on board now. Judas and I have dropped our anonymity and we've fine tuned how we moderate and how much we moderate. Give it some time, I think you'll see you have nothing to worry about.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby iJudas » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:26 pm

TrollinWitMyHomies wrote:The goal of moderation should always be to neutralize any kind of escalation that is destructive to a thread, not encourage it. By editing a perfectly relevant post based on an assumption and someone's hurt feelings because they think it just might be about them actually escalates a situation instead of diffuses it. This is, of course, just my opinion, and Ceri and the mods will always have my support in doing what they see fit on their forums, but I think that it is a relevant criticism of a current moderation practice to look into.


Pre-emptive moderation is far better than reactive. When you see patterns, know your audience and understand the depths that some will go to in order to rile your threshold population; you need/must do something. If you do too much, people cry foul. If you do nothing, flagged posts are generated by the dozen. Flagging posts is a two-edged sword. It creates a shit load of work for the mods and people get frustrated because that particular thread has had to be locked while those flagged posts are investigated. Therefore, moderating these particular forums, is likened to walking a tight rope. The rope is the rule of thumb and to deviate either side would be to spell disaster. Sometimes we even have a wobble.

I have seen plenty of healthy (heated) debate on these forums where no moderator has had to wade in to keep it on track. Take the Pelo/Mat (et al) discussion on the economy. That forum has been going for a while and to my knowledge, even though it has been extremely emotional at times, all posters have adopted a mature attitude and healthy respect for those that they are debating with. Sadly, you don't get this attitude from the majority here.

Anyway; I hear what you are saying and respect your opinions. You've talked; we've listened.

Judas
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby TrollinWitMyHomies » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:59 pm

I think the sticking point for me is that there is no clear list of guidelines (at least that I'm aware), and they are cited as intuitive or common sense, when I believe they really are not all that intuitive or common sense, for some people.

For instance, I know that we have, forever, posted logs and chats with people in world for critique or as examples of dissatisfaction to give a more concrete view of a situation and let the jury decide (sort of). So, while on one hand, I was told that examples, or even anything hinting at an example, of past issues should not be cited, they are cited all over the boards constantly with no consequence unless another person flags them and makes it a personal thing. Do you see how this kind of thing is really not an objective way to moderate?

In cases that an example may be seen to be alluding to a prior issue on the forums and may be seen as an effort to be inflammatory, I really think a simple PM to the poster to clarify would be most appopriate instead of the flat out assumption that it's meant to inflame, particularly when the example is completely relevant to the topic at hand. I feel that this would prevent a lot of miscommunication and also deter people from flagging everytime they assume something is personal.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby iJudas » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:42 pm

You have been told, both politely and robustly, how these boards are run. They are run to the owners liking. I do not see how your persistent, yet futile attempts to effect change, by going on and on and on and on about it, will work in your favour.

The Gorums do not revolve around you. Draw a line and walk away from it.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby TrollinWitMyHomies » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:19 pm

Judas,

I think that's a really screwed up position to take. "This is how it is so stfu." Don't have a suggestion forum then if you don't actually want to see anyone's suggestions. I wasn't demanding the forums change, I was asking for clarification, which apart from a little bit in Garrgon's post, I have never received. Sure there were PMs exchanged but they lacked the clarification I'm seeking. It's exactly responses like yours that completely overshadow the promises of objective moderation.

Judas wrote:The Gorums do not revolve around you.


Thank you for confirming the lack of faith I have in you to ever moderate this forum in an even remotely objective manner. :ohgawd:
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Garrgon » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:38 pm

I'll try once more.

Your first concern, which you stated was your only one:
Warnings are issued based on the flags of other users.

I answered this one on page 4.

Your second concern:
I believe that more should be looked at than simply that flagged post.

I answered this too, assuring you that we do look at much more then just the flagged post or the flag itself.

Your third concern:
I think the sticking point for me is that there is no clear list of guidelines (at least that I'm aware), and they are cited as intuitive or common sense, when I believe they really are not all that intuitive or common sense, for some people.

The rules of the forum have been posted and if you want to see a clear list of them, they're still there for your reading enjoyment. You know that, as a forum owner yourself, we can't read every single post that is submitted to the board every day. If you don't flag it, there's a good chance we might not see it. That means that yes, there will be posts that might have qualified for editing or removal that are still there. Yes there will be posts that refer to something that shouldn't be there but are. If we don't see it, it's not getting sorted.

All of this has been explained before but I felt it was worthy of explaining again. However, I'm not a fan of repeating myself. So if you decide to rehash any of the questions I just answered in a way that suggests you haven't been answered at all, then I'm going to step aside and let Judas throw his balls at you again.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby TrollinWitMyHomies » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:57 pm

Garrgon wrote:The rules of the forum have been posted and if you want to see a clear list of them


Where? I've gone through several times and while I see about 6 threads dealing with rules, I've yet to see a list that actually defines for this community what the buzzwords mean.

For instance, what I consider disagreeing, debating and stating my point is clearly consider trolling by some others. I just flagged a post yesterday explaining that to Ceri.

So what do the owners define as trolling, flaming, personal attacks? Also, it would be helpful if someone does get edited or warned, to quote from the actual post in PM the exact point at which the mods felt that the post was detracting from the thread in a way that broke the rules. I really feel that it's like we are reading from different pages here and the frustrating part of it is that I keep getting accused of this shit without any example given to me or any definitions provided.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Garrgon » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:35 pm

I don't think we see them much different then anywhere else. Trolling of course is when someone posts with the intent of provoking readers. Flaming is posting insulting or hostile comments about another reader. A personal attack would be just what it sounds like, personally attacking someone.

You're asking how we decide if a flagged post is really one of those? We use our judgement. Really they're pretty obvious when done, don't you think? There is no way for us to make everyone happy. You're not going to always like what we decide. I know that's not the answer you're looking for, but it's the best I can do.

As for having quotes given to you so you know what you said wrong, I'll pass that request along to the Admins.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Dren Bernard » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:42 pm

TrollinWitMyHomies wrote:
Judas wrote:The Gorums do not revolve around you.


Thank you for confirming the lack of faith I have in you to ever moderate this forum in an even remotely objective manner. :ohgawd:


So reading this right, you are upset because Judas declares that the forums do not revolve around you, even despite your best efforts? Is this a form of uber-trolling? It sure looks like it with your chosen name and signature.
I can only shake my head at your persistent recalcitrance. And I do admire your ability to let things go and move on. :ohgawd: :locked: <- myself.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby TrollinWitMyHomies » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:52 pm

The forums don't revolve around me. I'm well aware of that and I don't expect them to. My name is what is called humor because it couldn't be further from the truth, actually. It's not like I haven't been here for going on 4 years...I think if I was only here to troll, I wouldn't have lasted that long. Sheesh.

Anyway, thank you for your response Garrgon. I appreciate your approach and I can only hope that it can spread to others on the administration team. I will address this further in PM with you to prevent the super, awesome non-dramatic members on this forum from getting their hands all buttered up with popcorn. :lol:
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