New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

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Kaitlin
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Kaitlin » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:56 am

The IN Crowd wrote:
Inglorious wrote:I knew when I woke up this morning that I would be confronted with a flag. But three? I have done what Ceri couldn't; I have banned TrollinWitMyHomies from the Gorums. Like you, I am sick and tired of her shit. When Ceri wakes up, she can review it.

Inglorious


This I disagree with..

Ceri could have easily have banned her, she has stated many a times that she is a big girl..

I don't disagree with you banning her, largely because it's your business what you do..

But don't claim that you banned her because Ceri had some inability to do so, you did so because you wanted to..

Furthermore when there is a two way dispute such as Troll and Suayan, you should have banned them both or all of them even if for just 24 hours to cool their heads..

Cutting one off for retaliating but not the other for instigating is dirty pool.. It was obvious that both were at each others throats..

It just rings as disingenuous..

Moderation isn't taking sides..


I think you missed a thread. This was not over the issue between Suyuan and Kiana/Samara although I am sure it did play a factor. There is a second thread which actually only had one of the above participating. Just to clarify.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby E. Edward Gray » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:13 am

The thread where she went off..

I saw it..

I just thought it was a symptom of the problem at least in her mind based on what she wrote not the whole problem, and while she may have shown a lot of emotion, I hardly feel that she is alone to blame when it comes to bad behaviors on this board..
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Ceri the Urt » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:52 am

The In Crowd: I didn't want to Ban her because I was to involved in the discussion and the Mods and myself as an Admin try not to moderate things we are to involved in.
All of the information, the edited posts, etc are all kept on the staff boards so all of the mods can review entire issues and make judgments such as bannings in case something like this happens where a mod backs out because they are to involved and don't know if they can be unbias.
We do are best to try and be as fair and neutral to everyone as we can. Heck one reason the mods are anonymous are not just to protect their true identity from harassment, but because the other mods have no idea who each other are so they can mod one and others posts (on their actual persona) and be unbias about it.

The other mods wanted a perma ban. I told them to do a one week. What everyone has to remember is the only thing we really "show" are bans. Warnings and such are not shown to the public. So while everyone thinks that those involved were let off the hook scott free, they were not. Warnings were given out. People were spoken to. No bans were issues because in nearly all the cases it was everyones first offence. Kiana was warned, she was warned verbally, she was told quite a few times not to do something, she was talked to in PM and she still wouldn't drop the subject and made it clear she was going to grief the boards when she changed her avi. THAT is what got her banned.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Mat » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:59 am

Ceri the Urt wrote:The In Crowd: I didn't want to Ban her because I was to involved in the discussion and the Mods and myself as an Admin try not to moderate things we are to involved in.
All of the information, the edited posts, etc are all kept on the staff boards so all of the mods can review entire issues and make judgments such as bannings in case something like this happens where a mod backs out because they are to involved and don't know if they can be unbias.
We do are best to try and be as fair and neutral to everyone as we can. Heck one reason the mods are anonymous are not just to protect their true identity from harassment, but because the other mods have no idea who each other are so they can mod one and others posts (on their actual persona) and be unbias about it.

The other mods wanted a perma ban. I told them to do a one week. What everyone has to remember is the only thing we really "show" are bans. Warnings and such are not shown to the public. So while everyone thinks that those involved were let off the hook scott free, they were not. Warnings were given out. People were spoken to. No bans were issues because in nearly all the cases it was everyones first offence. Kiana was warned, she was warned verbally, she was told quite a few times not to do something, she was talked to in PM and she still wouldn't drop the subject and made it clear she was going to grief the boards when she changed her avi. THAT is what got her banned.

I am not suggesting that you cannot or should not ban whoever you choose to, however I must ask If you felt like you were to involved to issue a ban, even a temporary one, where you not also to involved to fairly mod the issue? I am not trying to be argumentative but it just seems like you are either able to remain impartial on a given issue or not. There is no fault in your modding or banning for that matter, but I think it is clear that your modding exasperated the situation and my only question is if you are to involved to ban than should you really be modding on that issue.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Ceri the Urt » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:22 am

Mat, that all depends, the way we mod is set down in a very strict set of rules.
Read flagged report
Go back and read the post the flag was produced in.
See who instigated the fight to begin with.
Edit post.
Make a report.
Warn/ban users.

In the beginning I do believe I was fine with modding the posts. Contrary to popular belief I had absolutely no problem with Kiana. In fact in two of the incidents I went and spoke to the others involved warning them before any warning was sent to Kiana. When I was offline another incident occurred and Kiana was sent a warning by another mod. Our main job is to try and defuse a situation before it escalates and ruins a post, which is why I put a "take it to PMs" warning on one of the threads, and that if anyone had any issues with my edits they should pm me rather then keep it in the open. This is where I stepped out of the moderation because Kiana addressed me personally in her public post on the suggestion boards and I responded. The threads that followed were locked and PMs were exchanged. I told Judas to take over the moderation of the posts from that point on and he did.

I have also attempted to stay out of any further moderation of those types of posts unless of course they are blatant like Garbonius's this morning and no other mods were online. There are flagged posts open at the moment because I don't feel comfortable modding them. Unfortunately our staff is short handed at the moment so what people find offensive may not be modded immediately as we wait for one of the mods to log on.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Mat » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:30 am

Thank you very much for responding, I had and continue to have no idea who is friends with who, that kind of stuff really does not interest me all that much. It had only appeared that there was something deeper than the posts on the surface going on. Did not mean to question the fairness of the modding, as I do believe it to be fair, again thank you for taking the time to respond and clear up the issue.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Ceri the Urt » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:51 am

No problem. Truthfully, all of this yelling about Bias is sort of silly. I have been friends at one time or another with almost everyone involved. Ironically the only people I don't think I have ever rped with and don't really know all that well are Kaitlin, Kata and alana. We have spoken in pms now and then on the boards, we may have run into each other during rp and perhaps said "hello"...but truth be told when all of this first started I thought Kaitlin and Kata were the same person and I was REALLY confused LOL. It took like two or three threads before I figured that one out.

Also I can understand why people would question the fairness. We (the mods and myself) have to write down all of a persons offences when we edit posts. So while a normal board member may be only reading one post an offence is in, and judge our actions as extreme because of that one post...more then likely that one post is simply the straw that broke the camels back in a landslide of many posts that have built up over time and lead to the warnings. That is why you don't see a lot of people banned at once. Some of the people involved may be receiving their first "verbal" warning, while others may be receiving their 2nd or 3rd warning which equals a ban.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby TrollinWitMyHomies » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:12 pm

Yes, I'm opening up this topic again because it still really bothers me what happened and the way it was handled. I think, as a group, we are all unclear (just by the posts here) how the rules are actually enforced.

I don't think there is a personal issue at all. I just want to be clear. I don't think Ceri or any of the moderators are out to get me. That has never been an issue for me. So, I would like to keep this in very generic terms.

My issue remains one specifically...

Warnings are issued based on the flags of other users. While that seems great in a perfect world and I think Ceri has good intent in her idea, some people are WAY more sensitive than others and take everything personally, thus submitting more flags than others. For instance, if I say "I think that position is bullshit and here's why..." there are a number of people on these forums that will take that personally, flag the post, and feel personally attacked because I called their precious post bullshit. It's an opinion and it's like an asshole. We all have them. That's why we are here. So if we can no longer criticize opinions on a discussion forum, I think we are in trouble.

Now, what I think flags SHOULD be used for, is in cases where something is blatantly offensive, such as, the use of discrimminatory language or attacks like "You are a stinky whore." Of course, this is my opinion, and clearly I'm a lot more thick skinned than a lot of people.

So, if bans are issued based on warnings and warnings are issued based on user flags, and flags are created based on people's sensitivity level then I think we have a breakdown in fairness on how the forum is moderated. I can't really blame a moderator who sees suddenly 4 flags on one single post for thinking that person is the new hitler of the forums. But, I think where I feel that there is an issue, and I feel that I was certainly an example of it, is that, if you have someone like me who doesn't flag anything, ever, then they get screwed. I never flag anything because even when people are being blatantly rude, it's a forum and I'm not all that offended by what some stranger says about me on a forum dedicated to make believe stuff. We can't really expect mods to go back and read through all 5+ pages of a post to determine where the issue started and who started throwing around insults to begin with, so even though you say all these flags are documented, you are still only getting a very narrow glimpse of the whole issue, in my opinion.

So guess what? This system leads me now to flag everything I see that I would have never even blinked at before. Because that is the only way, in this system, to have a "fair trial" so to speak, so that the moderators are presented with all of the evidence and not just the prosecution's. I don't care if you are the best moderator in the world, I think that it is all too easy to just see one side of the story here with this system in place.

I hope this post is taken for the constructive criticism that it is. That is the only intent behind it. However, I think it is pretty apparent, given that I have been on these forums for almost 4 years and never even had a post edited for being inflammatory until the last few weeks, that there is a bigger issue going on here. I really believe it is the system, itself. So take my criticism seriously, tell me to shove it up my ass, but, I felt the need to post this, in public because I really feel that a transparent system of moderation is only fair to every single person on these forums.

P.S. I don't hate the forums. If I did, I wouldn't post here. Sure, I disagree with certain things, but the day that disagreeing with how something is run makes someone a troll or a hater, is the day that we might as all wear the swastika wrapped around our bicep. I don't have an issue with Ceri or any one of the moderators and I actually don't even have a personal issue with one person on these forums. So, save your popcorn for the movies. If you cannot take this post for what it is, then it is only a perfect example of the issues that this board suffers when it comes to people expressing their opinions.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby Garrgon » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:03 pm

Good post.

I think you misunderstand our side of it when we see a flag though. A flag only draws our attention to the flagged post. Whether or not we edit it or remove it is up to us. It's not decided upon by the fact that there was a flag. We're very aware of the fact that people can be overly sensitive or even biased against other posters. Each flag is read and looked into. What we do with it is completely up to us.

We know that the system is not perfect, but since none of us can be on the forums reading every single post that comes through, we need to rely on all the sets of eyes we have as members. If anyone sees anything that they feel is offensive, they're welcome to flag that and pass their concerns along to us. We're pretty good at weeding them out.

Flagging every post you see that might be even remotely offensive will only get you a rep as an excessive flagger with the Mods. We do have them, and I'll be honest to admit we don't take their complaints as seriously as others that don't flag very often. So if it's your rep on here as someone flagged in the past that you're worried about, that's not the way to take the focus off of that. Really I don't think you have anything to worry about in respect to your rep. We can see if you're doing well or not, and so far since you've been back you've been doing very well.

You see, I can only speak for myself, but I don't take peoples complaints as the God Spoken Truth. We have people that flag every thing they see, people that rarely or never flag, people with thick skin and people easily offended. I know you don't think that even a good Moderator can see both sides of the coin, but we can.

I hope this answers some concerns.
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Re: New Gorum Ban Rules EVERYONE READ!

Postby TrollinWitMyHomies » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:53 pm

Garrgon wrote: A flag only draws our attention to the flagged post.


Actually, I was completely clear on the process. I know that not every flagged post generates a warning or an edit. I think that this is actually what I take most issue with. I believe that more should be looked at than simply that flagged post. The entire thread should be taken into account and the words on the screen should be taken at face value. Assumptions and 'reading between the lines' should not play a part in determining if a warning or even an edit is issued. Is it a lot of work? Yes. But, I think if a fair, full picture view is to be gained, then that is really the only way.

For instance, I started a thread recently on my other forum regarding emotional responsibility when dealing with submission. It was a rather heated topic with varying opinions and examples were brought into play, though no specific names were used and a lot of the examples could likely apply to a lot of people across gor and even those involved in the topic, myself included. The discussion remained entirely "academic" and no one, at least openly, assumed that an example used was specifically about them. I have no idea if they were or were not, but the point is that if someone were to have flagged that post as offensive because they recently split with their Master and felt that someone was specifically targeting them in an example used (even though no names or identifying info was provided), as a moderator, I would have gone back, read the whole thread and told them that while I'm sorry they feel that something was targeted at them and I can see how it might be easy to feel that way, from an outside view, it doesn't appear that way and no one would even know.

My point is that when assumptions are used as a basis in moderating posts and we don't just take a look at the words for their face value, I actually think it generates much more "drama" because it then becomes a game of "I wasn't even talking about that example" and the retort is "Well, it seemed like you might have been" and back and forth with escalation ensuing. The person may or may not have been using that specific example, and honestly, even if they were, if it contributes to the post, then it is a relevant example. Often, it's the subject of the example that "outs" him/herself and turns the thread into something personal.

ETA this: So, if flags are used to determine if someone gets edited or ultimately warned/banned, then I think there needs to be a more objective approach to what actually is considered against the rules when posting. It just seems like in some cases, it's perfectly okay to post that example, as long as the other person involved doesn't get butthurt about it. How many times do we see full RP logs or chat logs posted? But yet, in other cases, it's no longer allowed to use actual RP/RPers as examples or even use a similar example because someone has been so butthurt by it that they can't even see it in a thread. It's confusing.

The goal of moderation should always be to neutralize any kind of escalation that is destructive to a thread, not encourage it. By editing a perfectly relevant post based on an assumption and someone's hurt feelings because they think it just might be about them actually escalates a situation instead of diffuses it. This is, of course, just my opinion, and Ceri and the mods will always have my support in doing what they see fit on their forums, but I think that it is a relevant criticism of a current moderation practice to look into.
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