Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

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Tantus
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:55 am

Sasi wrote:It was never a waste of time. This event, until one of the parties freak out because they were losing the war, had been a lot of fun. Every saturday, there was a battle, and every man in SL Gor who could fight, was welcome to join one of the armies, either as NPC, either as a paid mercenary. Between each battle, this war brought RP, was an opportunity for IC events (in all sims I have been part of as admin or co-owner, there was never an OOC event (except once, in Cyprianus, a tournament I had planned to kept ICly but one of the co-owners organized it in a skybox and opened it to women as well... I was pissed off).
But still, if I was not myself amazed with the way they RPed a Gorean character (but I'm biaised, being a BTB freak), they were not lifestylers.


If you enjoyed this experience you should return to Gor, plenty of sims out there are ready to whine on every raid and finally cancel it before the climax. Clearly not everyone was having fun. I liked to see a return on my investments in BTB, the weekly raiding and some RP was something I played in GE.

I'm speculating this ill fated war occurred whilst Kaelus was occupied by Arians?
If I understood it correctly, the point of the Kaelus sim was to open under occupation then transition through a rebellion where the citizens retake their city

Tantus wrote:I don't know what are these terrible decisions you speak about. I heard about some OOC dramas but when it occured, I was already gone and not interested.

"virginal long-term project"? Are you insinuating that a slave player should have no project, no expectation of long-term RP, storyline...? Why should slave players have different expectations for their RP than those who play a free man or free woman?


Terrible decision in the friends he made. But he's not the first guy in SL RP to have fallen into the wrong circles.

"Long-term" shouldn't ever be an expectation, it will come naturally if the characters consent to it. To expect it is IC/OOC crossing.

Sasi wrote:You don't understand that Illyros has never been opened for the purpose of attracting the big SL Gor crowd. It was a project for those who wanted to play a character really authentic in regard to the Gorean culture. We didn't want the same crap you see everywhere: People whose character claimed a new home stone every time they joined a new city/village, people whose character has been a member of different castes, the improbable progenies of Tuchuk/Torvies etc, the exotic slaves with non sense skills, etc etc. The timing was of no importance, we knew that this project would only appeal to a minority. And the admin team was dedicated.
As for the sims you listed above, most of them were tea party, onlineisms, IC and OOC mixing, lame old school Gor sims. After Cyprianus, and before ORS, with friends, we travelled a lot, looking for a new place.

And no, you were absent the day where I have been dragged to this trial. I defended myself alone....! If I didn't end up into collar, this day, that was not because your active assistance.............! :D


I respect what Illyros had set out to accomplish, I just don't see the relevance in comparing it to sims who were active, where roleplayers made an effort to push their stories forwards. Though you've repeatedly referenced it as a thriving destination, only you see it that way.

Sasi wrote:Since these friends supposed you had launched this trade RP in order to piss off, OOCly a sim owner (Sais') in isolating him (because the close timing between these two events, the ban and the trade), I think they understand very well the concept of IC and OOC separation.
And if you expressed your satisfation at the idea of bothering Sais through this alliance RP that they couldn't join, definitely, you can't blame people for the impression you made. But as you said yourself, eh, it was just a bonus :)

And no, Tantus. Most people don't save their SL logs when they change PC. They are not very important files. We usually save our personal folders, our photos, but SL logs? They stay on the old hard drive...


Storing logs was no effort at all, it often helped me during moderation to call back on old logs. And certainly I've enjoyed some of the scenes I was part of, some day in the distant future I may read through my method of roleplaying again.

Since your friends need to talk through you, they're sounding like little more than Lifestyle sissies. They have you carrying some rumour which repeatedly shifts around, it had lost all form two posts ago.

Is this about a sim responding to an RP ban, or trolling sim owners. I'm sure your friends have been innocent of those charges :D

I've already acknowledged I cross IC/OOC, the same as every other roleplayer. But this wasn't one of those occasions, you ought to be ashamed of propagating girl-gossip.



Sasi wrote:Free women are all over men in SL Gor... As soon as one shows up on sim.... Sometimes, they jump in men's IMs. If the avatar is decent, it's sufficient.
Stop blaming women, men have the easiest part, they start with an advantage: Being a man in an R environment where women are the majority....


I don't dispute it, some guys too easily fall for the first girl who contacts and congratulates him. It does nothing good for the game.

It's not to say all girls who IM you are insane, you just need to recognize those who are.

Sasi wrote:I told you that it was not my conception of political RP... I dislike family RP. With the people I played, the sons and the daughters were pawns used to gain position and power. If a daughter was enslaved, she was disowned, she had brought dishonor in the house. We didn't play lovey dovey family RP where everyone loves everyone. If some day, I play again in a house, as a family member, I invite you to join. You definitely need to experience a new environment :D


I get the necessity for internal roleplaying, the decent females on sim need roleplay too. When I became involved in a city I tended to look outwards, onto the grandest prize. That's the actual fun of roleplaying. It's not a dig at you, when I've cammed these Ar sims and seen the characters leading their political houses, and their family members, I know they won't achieve anything from their track record in Gor.

Had there ever been a shift in Ar taking power away from the sim owner, you could have highlighted those occasions. But the Ars have no credentials as legitimate roleplaying sims. I'm not vehemently opposed to political RP, it's these pretenders you continually highlight as some standard are the same people I perceive on a level with Sais style sims.

Sasi wrote:
Tantus wrote:And in the end, Sasi, who was right about ROIAF. The views I held, or the fantasy you were living.

Who was right about ROIAF...? :hrm: Oor and Anarch :mrgreen:


I thought they were great as a comedy act, but even humour has its victims. They ought to act responsibly in future with disclaimers at the end of each post. A signature like:


[Hi. Theses naive implications of a sim without metgaming, IC/OOC crossing or any form of illicit play are the views of a delusional actor and should not be read as fact. But please, let us live our fantasy in peace.]


I would find that a reasonable compromise from any ROIAF player who routinely trolled Gorean RP forums.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:01 pm

Tantus wrote:If you enjoyed this experience you should return to Gor, plenty of sims out there are ready to whine on every raid and finally cancel it before the climax. Clearly not everyone was having fun. I liked to see a return on my investments in BTB, the weekly raiding and some RP was something I played in GE.
I'm speculating this ill fated war occurred whilst Kaelus was occupied by Arians?
If I understood it correctly, the point of the Kaelus sim was to open under occupation then transition through a rebellion where the citizens retake their city

Yes, it happened during this lore. A brilliant one, actually. Credit has to be given to Theoden. I don't even remember one sim where the story started under an occupation, one sim with a lore where a city would have been, simply, a vassal. People who opens a sim wants a strong city or village, not a place already crushed under the boot of a stronger occupiant.... A quite creative lore, indeed.
And still, the war offered a lot of fun events to play. Plus the pew pew part for those who enjoyed metered combats but organized in a way which didn't disturb other players' RP.

At the end, after some weeks, the war event got ruined because some cool kids threw a tantrum over their defeats. The usual in SL Gor. But until it happened, yes, that was enjoyable.

Tantus wrote:Terrible decision in the friends he made. But he's not the first guy in SL RP to have fallen into the wrong circles.
"Long-term" shouldn't ever be an expectation, it will come naturally if the characters consent to it. To expect it is IC/OOC crossing.

I don't know his friends, I don't know what kind of relationship he had with his admin team, with his SL partner and it was none of my business.

And I see no reason justifying that you couldn't have som expectation for a long-term RP. Most players in any kind of RP environment enjoy and favor storylines over random scenes. There is no crossing IC/OOC when you have expectations in a -game-. Expecting a good storyline is not putting a knife on people's throat in order to force them to keep playing with you. Expecting is not demanding.

Tantus wrote:I respect what Illyros had set out to accomplish, I just don't see the relevance in comparing it to sims who were active, where roleplayers made an effort to push their stories forwards. Though you've repeatedly referenced it as a thriving destination, only you see it that way.


Not just me, Tantus, not just me... The people here, who played in this sim, have enjoyed their time. And a sim can have 30K traffic, be very active, and still be populated by snowflakes, lifestylers and noobs... High traffic is never a synonym of quality RP.

Tantus wrote:Storing logs was no effort at all, it often helped me during moderation to call back on old logs. And certainly I've enjoyed some of the scenes I was part of, some day in the distant future I may read through my method of roleplaying again.
Since your friends need to talk through you, they're sounding like little more than Lifestyle sissies. They have you carrying some rumour which repeatedly shifts around, it had lost all form two posts ago.
Is this about a sim responding to an RP ban, or trolling sim owners. I'm sure your friends have been innocent of those charges :D
I've already acknowledged I cross IC/OOC, the same as every other roleplayer. But this wasn't one of those occasions, you ought to be ashamed of propagating girl-gossip.

Erm... Excuse me, but when I moderate a RP scene, I don't need the logs from past years. It's easy to store our logs, and yes, if this option is enabled, we all do it. But when you change your PC, when you have to save your important files, usually, the SL logs are forgetten. They are not important files. And when you harddrive crashes definitely, bye bye SL logs.
And it's not a rumor, Tantus... just a chat between friends. I assure you, you're definitely not the target of some vile scheme, nobody speaks through me nor want your head (sorry if this supposition flattered your ego :mrgreen: )
Are they innocent of enjoying those kinds of "bonus", eh, I wouldn't know, nobody's perfect, huh...

As for your crossing of IC and OOC, we have still a disagreement about the definitions, the same way we don't have the same definition about what makes a lifestyler. Which makes us turn in circles on these 2 questions...

Tantus wrote:I get the necessity for internal roleplaying, the decent females on sim need roleplay too. When I became involved in a city I tended to look outwards, onto the grandest prize. That's the actual fun of roleplaying. It's not a dig at you, when I've cammed these Ar sims and seen the characters leading their political houses, and their family members, I know they won't achieve anything from their track record in Gor.
Had there ever been a shift in Ar taking power away from the sim owner, you could have highlighted those occasions. But the Ars have no credentials as legitimate roleplaying sims. I'm not vehemently opposed to political RP, it's these pretenders you continually highlight as some standard are the same people I perceive on a level with Sais style sims.

"the decent females".... Tantus, there are not just women who want internal roleplaying. There are decent males too. And by the way, the fun of RP is not just into actions, caste work, etc. It's also how our characters confront each other, how they grow, how they evolve, how their personalities blossom... The emotions and the sentiments, positive and negative they express... It's finally what gives a storyline all its real interest... Because it's role play, not some video game where you have levels to pass through, assets to gain, etc.

And still, you are talking about people with whom you never played and that you have no chance to meet in Old Gor sims like Sais. They're people who don't understand, for example, why NPC ownership is such a big deal in SL Gor, why some sims even forbid the use of NPCs, why you need different rules for slave players, etc etc.

Tantus wrote:I thought they were great as a comedy act, but even humour has its victims. They ought to act responsibly in future with disclaimers at the end of each post. A signature like:

[Hi. Theses naive implications of a sim without metgaming, IC/OOC crossing or any form of illicit play are the views of a delusional actor and should not be read as fact. But please, let us live our fantasy in peace.]

I would find that a reasonable compromise from any ROIAF player who routinely trolled Gorean RP forums.

You're quite persistant at giving your opinion on places where you never played and ROAIF is definitely your bugbear....
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:39 am

Sasi wrote:Yes, it happened during this lore. A brilliant one, actually. Credit has to be given to Theoden. I don't even remember one sim where the story started under an occupation, one sim with a lore where a city would have been, simply, a vassal. People who opens a sim wants a strong city or village, not a place already crushed under the boot of a stronger occupiant.... A quite creative lore, indeed.
And still, the war offered a lot of fun events to play. Plus the pew pew part for those who enjoyed metered combats but organized in a way which didn't disturb other players' RP.

At the end, after some weeks, the war event got ruined because some cool kids threw a tantrum over their defeats. The usual in SL Gor. But until it happened, yes, that was enjoyable.


The concept was to open under occupation then transition towards a liberation. Were there factions actively opposing the Arians, or were events unfolding as part of the OOC storytelling.

Being RP banned is generally detrimental to roleplaying, but if you guys marched through it without having your stories disturbed with Hochburg, then good on you. If I put these pieces together it sounds like you roleplayed with Hochburg's sim owner, then he RP banned your sim.

It's alright, I've had those experiences too in getting my sim/group banned because I roleplayed.

Sasi wrote:I don't know his friends, I don't know what kind of relationship he had with his admin team, with his SL partner and it was none of my business.

And I see no reason justifying that you couldn't have som expectation for a long-term RP. Most players in any kind of RP environment enjoy and favor storylines over random scenes. There is no crossing IC/OOC when you have expectations in a -game-. Expecting a good storyline is not putting a knife on people's throat in order to force them to keep playing with you. Expecting is not demanding.


When you intend to settle in a city, make it your business to know the sim's admins and who they mingle with. It reveals the potential of the sim and whether you should join them for the ride.

I cut people loose very quickly when I logged in and they expected I was online for them. The people who shared a household with me knew they needed to entertain themselves, and we would roleplay when my scheduled allowed for it.

These expectations are the very reason men disappear and a sim declines into spinster city.

Sasi wrote:Not just me, Tantus, not just me... The people here, who played in this sim, have enjoyed their time. And a sim can have 30K traffic, be very active, and still be populated by snowflakes, lifestylers and noobs... High traffic is never a synonym of quality RP.


The sim worked for your longterm storyline and that's great. For you.


Sasi wrote:Erm... Excuse me, but when I moderate a RP scene, I don't need the logs from past years. It's easy to store our logs, and yes, if this option is enabled, we all do it. But when you change your PC, when you have to save your important files, usually, the SL logs are forgetten. They are not important files. And when you harddrive crashes definitely, bye bye SL logs.
And it's not a rumor, Tantus... just a chat between friends. I assure you, you're definitely not the target of some vile scheme, nobody speaks through me nor want your head (sorry if this supposition flattered your ego :mrgreen: )
Are they innocent of enjoying those kinds of "bonus", eh, I wouldn't know, nobody's perfect, huh...

As for your crossing of IC and OOC, we have still a disagreement about the definitions, the same way we don't have the same definition about what makes a lifestyler. Which makes us turn in circles on these 2 questions...


Given how narrowly you perceive the world, I can't imagine your moderation went beyond, "My friends are right and honourable and they told me this happened."

Which is... exactly what you're doing here absent proof, since not a single one of these girls possessed the foresight or basic knowledge to store logs from someone they'd later accuse of foul play. I can accept it, women aren't very technical. Like any silly gossipers you've lost all sense of anything you were accusing me of. I could post my IM logs with any of your friends and shed some truth on this fiasco. It would require them to man up.

But I'll not hold my breath, gossiping little bitches will be bitches for life :wave:

This sorry episode aside, I still encourage you to improve your definitions. Then you'll not be someone who enjoyed roleplaying on Lifestyle sims, by your own confession.


Sasi wrote:"the decent females".... Tantus, there are not just women who want internal roleplaying. There are decent males too. And by the way, the fun of RP is not just into actions, caste work, etc. It's also how our characters confront each other, how they grow, how they evolve, how their personalities blossom... The emotions and the sentiments, positive and negative they express... It's finally what gives a storyline all its real interest... Because it's role play, not some video game where you have levels to pass through, assets to gain, etc.

And still, you are talking about people with whom you never played and that you have no chance to meet in Old Gor sims like Sais. They're people who don't understand, for example, why NPC ownership is such a big deal in SL Gor, why some sims even forbid the use of NPCs, why you need different rules for slave players, etc etc.


Men who want roleplay can make it for themselves, that's my attitude.

Women, in general, aren't so confident in pushing storylines. There are some who do and are fun to engage with for that reason, but the majority are happy to react at situations posted towards them.

At this stage you're deflecting a very simple question with wistful fluff. I asked if any Arian household through their six or seven iterations, managed to depose the sim-owner's family and take control of the city. In these supposedly political environments?

Or through the years have they only every amounted to households expressing emotions, sentiments, character development and all that tea-partying nonsense you couldn't pay me to sit through. Paragraphs and paragraphs of mundane drivel? No thank you, I don't do Reality TV.

To my knowledge, in 10 years of 'elite' Ar sims, the only successful transition occurred when Arians declared war on my character. This cannot be right? Were we really the only ones to have ever affected Ar's politics, whilst Arian's rolled around roleplaying their emotions.

Character growth comes when my character has faced intense situations, when he passes milestones and actually develops. Everyone fakes it now, rolling wealthy and important characters, having pretend backstories they won't shut up about, imagined weaknesses, strengths and attributes. It's all very superficial.

When I roleplayed a character, his backstories were actual events, his weaknesses were everything he'd learned about himself, his strengths were discovered through periods of adversity. It wasn't made up on a piece of paper, his traits emerged as a consequence of roleplaying. That is character development.

Sasi wrote:You're quite persistant at giving your opinion on places where you never played and ROAIF is definitely your bugbear....


Evidently you weren't roleplaying at ROIAF either, but continually reference the sim's alleged standards. But don't let the facts of the sim's demise affect your perceptions, your friends sold you a cosy fantasy so by all means, believe it.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:39 pm

Tantus wrote:The concept was to open under occupation then transition towards a liberation. Were there factions actively opposing the Arians, or were events unfolding as part of the OOC storytelling.
Being RP banned is generally detrimental to roleplaying, but if you guys marched through it without having your stories disturbed with Hochburg, then good on you. If I put these pieces together it sounds like you roleplayed with Hochburg's sim owner, then he RP banned your sim.
It's alright, I've had those experiences too in getting my sim/group banned because I roleplayed.


We had factions actively opposing the Arian occupation. People chose their camps. was used as a pawn by the regent, against whom she plotted as well to serve her own personal agenda.

But I suspect you don't understand how this war worked... It was not made of constant raids upon the involved cities.... No ban occured. Hochburg decided to end it, simply. Each part roleplayed the outcome of this war the way they wanted.

Here the lore and the logistic:

► Show Spoiler



Tantus wrote:When you intend to settle in a city, make it your business to know the sim's admins and who they mingle with. It reveals the potential of the sim and whether you should join them for the ride.
I cut people loose very quickly when I logged in and they expected I was online for them. The people who shared a household with me knew they needed to entertain themselves, and we would roleplay when my scheduled allowed for it.
These expectations are the very reason men disappear and a sim declines into spinster city.

I don't need to befriend the sim admins. Some names will of course be a turn off, but for the rest, I'm not interested in knowing their business, how they work together.

As for long term RP, you seem to imply that it's a woman expectation. It is not. It's the expectation of most role players actually. It doesn't mean that people expect all your time and exclusivity. And you're annoying at constantly speaking of men as victims...

Tantus wrote:Given how narrowly you perceive the world, I can't imagine your moderation went beyond, "My friends are right and honourable and they told me this happened."
Which is... exactly what you're doing here absent proof, since not a single one of these girls possessed the foresight or basic knowledge to store logs from someone they'd later accuse of foul play. I can accept it, women aren't very technical. Like any silly gossipers you've lost all sense of anything you were accusing me of. I could post my IM logs with any of your friends and shed some truth on this fiasco. It would require them to man up.
But I'll not hold my breath, gossiping little bitches will be bitches for life :wave:
This sorry episode aside, I still encourage you to improve your definitions. Then you'll not be someone who enjoyed roleplaying on Lifestyle sims, by your own confession.

You're not close enough of me to know how I perceive the world, especially when we are only only talking about Gorean role play.... You're very quick at assuming and judging people and their motivations, even when you never interacted with them, then complain when you face this kind of situation yourself.
I'm all entitled to decide if a confidence sounds plausible or if not. That was not a rumor (and didn't come from women), only a confidence based on an -impression- you gave. And you have been able to give your own version which is fair.

Also, Tantus, if you already moderated in a sim, you should know that a serious moderator will never moderate a scene where his/her friends are involved. Because one of the parts could suspect that your decision was biased.

I never enjoyed to RP in lifestyle sims. Second, your definition of "lifestyler" is a non sense. As you said, a lifestyler is someone who doesn't play by the theme of Gor. I disagree. People who don't play by the theme of Gor are snowflakes or players new to the genre, or players who didn't study their role.
A lifestyler is a person who embraces the Gorean philosophy as a lifestyle, either in RL or just online. These people behave OOC'ly as if they were their character, they don't distance themselves from the fictional character. They embrace the non sense values supported in the books, such as woman's inferiority, naturally submissive.

I don't play with these people. There is nothing favoring more a drama, that people who can't realize that they are not their character.

I played in many sims, some with poor standards, despite decent rules. And when I'm tired of interacting with snowflakes (usually quickly) I leave or just keep playing with my friends.

Tantus wrote:Men who want roleplay can make it for themselves, that's my attitude.
Women, in general, aren't so confident in pushing storylines. There are some who do and are fun to engage with for that reason, but the majority are happy to react at situations posted towards them.


You forget a detail. There are more men in SL Gor than women. It's easy for a man to find RP as soon as one show up, he is very welcomed. It's easier, because he is a man in a genre where men are the natural authority, to lead the RP. Plus, a woman in SL Gor faces a few disadvantages. She cannot travel without escort and in some sims, NPCs are not even allowed. She is often required to have a protector. If she is a slave player, her possibilities are limited if she doesn't have a RP partner to play her master. She is not offered many choices, just one: the city kennels where all her RP will be controlled. 99,99% of Gorean sims won't allow her to use a NPC for her owner. She may be enjoying a scene with another player and have this scene broken because the slaver or the first girl decided she was needed in the tavern to serve random visitors.

I remember, with a friend (FW) we asked to open a brothel in a sim we had joined, with no a big traffic. We had excellent ideas, a good lore, we were ready to work non stop for the recruitment, the IC events, etc. The sim owner said no, because he was convinced that a tavern was a brothel and that two free women couldn't run a brothel. The quotes we provided never convinced him that he was wrong. We left. So, as much as for women pushing storylines...

But for men pushing storylines... Sorry, they are a minority as well, anyway...

Tantus wrote:At this stage you're deflecting a very simple question with wistful fluff. I asked if any Arian household through their six or seven iterations, managed to depose the sim-owner's family and take control of the city. In these supposedly political environments?
Or through the years have they only every amounted to households expressing emotions, sentiments, character development and all that tea-partying nonsense you couldn't pay me to sit through. Paragraphs and paragraphs of mundane drivel? No thank you, I don't do Reality TV.
To my knowledge, in 10 years of 'elite' Ar sims, the only successful transition occurred when Arians declared war on my character. This cannot be right? Were we really the only ones to have ever affected Ar's politics, whilst Arian's rolled around roleplaying their emotions.


10 years of "elite" Ar... Where you didn't play... But still, you talk like a specialist of this question...

In all these Ar, the ubar was not always the sim owner. But the last Ar where I played, the sim owner had created a character who was even more powerful than the ubar, then micromanaged the RP when he understood that his character would lose. He influenced the RP in using his OOC position of sim owner. He got away with actions that would have not been accepted from a mere player and ruined a whole storyline.

The interactions in a household may be made of emotions, sentiments, character development with nothing of tea party or mundane. You're full of prejudices and as I said, prompt at judging the RP of people with whom you never played.

Tantus wrote:Character growth comes when my character has faced intense situations, when he passes milestones and actually develops. Everyone fakes it now, rolling wealthy and important characters, having pretend backstories they won't shut up about, imagined weaknesses, strengths and attributes. It's all very superficial.
When I roleplayed a character, his backstories were actual events, his weaknesses were everything he'd learned about himself, his strengths were discovered through periods of adversity. It wasn't made up on a piece of paper, his traits emerged as a consequence of roleplaying. That is character development.


No Tantus, it's how you build a character. Everyone fake it? But all our characters are fake, they are creation of our imagination. You give your char a personality, some merits, some weaknesses, some strengths an age, a societal status. You must do it because in RP, you start portraying an adult character, not a new born baby... And adult people have already a personality, strengths and weaknesses.
When you build a character, you give him an age, an experience. And he can be whatever you want. As long as the backstory is plausible. You need different types of characters in your Gorean city. The low caste, the high caste, the wealthy merchant, the poor one, the artisans, the warriors, etc. Unlike you want all the base player in a sim which newly opened, be made of young people of 18 and those of experience and wealth being all NPC? I'm a strong supporter of NPCs, but at the end I interact with players and I don't think it would be fun to play with a bunch of "post-teen" characters...

You should know as well that you can start a character with strengths and weaknesses and everything can change, evolve, while your char confronts other characters and faces different situations. Nothing is written in the stone. Do you think that starting with the backstory of a wealthy character, will make this one immune of changes, that his personality won't evolve, he won't discover weakness in himself, couldn't grow stronger or the complete opposite?
Your statement explains maybe why so many people keep the same character, years after years, even it doesn't make sense after their char changed home stone 3 times per year, joined a few castes....

Tantus wrote:Evidently you weren't roleplaying at ROIAF either, but continually reference the sim's alleged standards. But don't let the facts of the sim's demise affect your perceptions, your friends sold you a cosy fantasy so by all means, believe it.


I already told you that I played in one of the versions of ROAIF (my char was a bastard of an noble house) a few years ago. A few weeks later, the sim closed for a complete rebuild and I turned my interest toward a fantasy sim. But just with the application process, I had understood that it promised standards you seldom get in SL Gor (a pic of your avatar dressed for the genre was even required). I was not disappointed.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:02 pm

Sasi wrote:We had factions actively opposing the Arian occupation. People chose their camps. was used as a pawn by the regent, against whom she plotted as well to serve her own personal agenda.

But I suspect you don't understand how this war worked... It was not made of constant raids upon the involved cities.... No ban occured. Hochburg decided to end it, simply. Each part roleplayed the outcome of this war the way they wanted.


This post was eye opening, Ivar's Landfall and Maelstrom too, a BTB Lifestyle sim and a GE Lifestyle sim, respectively.

If Hochburg was a dubious choice, these two sims were scandalously idiotic in all their iterations. I wouldn't use a latrine in Maelstrom since I have greater respect for my virtual faeces than dumping it on their sim.

And now I do recall this was the occasion where Hochburg roleplayed winning the war and Kaelus also roleplayed winning the war. So you're correct, each side roleplayed the outcome how they wanted.

Having read the war's setup, it describes the conflict external to Kaelus. Within the city itself, I was asking how the occupation was overturned by the citizens. Presumably it was a predefined event set to occur after the Hochburg war.

So Kaelus roleplayed victory, then a shift of power occurred within the city. And the occupiers were arrested or it happened another way?


Sasi wrote:I don't need to befriend the sim admins. Some names will of course be a turn off, but for the rest, I'm not interested in knowing their business, how they work together.

As for long term RP, you seem to imply that it's a woman expectation. It is not. It's the expectation of most role players actually. It doesn't mean that people expect all your time and exclusivity. And you're annoying at constantly speaking of men as victims...


I mentioned before, my female friends on Urban sims insist the men are needier there, with so many expecting commitment after a scene. Any expectation of another's availability without mutual agreement is detrimental to roleplaying.


Sasi wrote:You're not close enough of me to know how I perceive the world, especially when we are only only talking about Gorean role play.... You're very quick at assuming and judging people and their motivations, even when you never interacted with them, then complain when you face this kind of situation yourself.
I'm all entitled to decide if a confidence sounds plausible or if not. That was not a rumor (and didn't come from women), only a confidence based on an -impression- you gave. And you have been able to give your own version which is fair.

Also, Tantus, if you already moderated in a sim, you should know that a serious moderator will never moderate a scene where his/her friends are involved. Because one of the parts could suspect that your decision was biased.

I never enjoyed to RP in lifestyle sims. Second, your definition of "lifestyler" is a non sense. As you said, a lifestyler is someone who doesn't play by the theme of Gor. I disagree. People who don't play by the theme of Gor are snowflakes or players new to the genre, or players who didn't study their role.
A lifestyler is a person who embraces the Gorean philosophy as a lifestyle, either in RL or just online. These people behave OOC'ly as if they were their character, they don't distance themselves from the fictional character. They embrace the non sense values supported in the books, such as woman's inferiority, naturally submissive.

I don't play with these people. There is nothing favoring more a drama, that people who can't realize that they are not their character.

I played in many sims, some with poor standards, despite decent rules. And when I'm tired of interacting with snowflakes (usually quickly) I leave or just keep playing with my friends.


Yet you classified Tarnwald as a Lifestyle sim, where you apparently enjoyed some roleplaying too.

What began as my bragging to several people is now turning into an impression of something or other. It's irrelevant to me, these friends of yours probably came from Maelstrom.

Sasi wrote:You forget a detail. There are more men in SL Gor than women. It's easy for a man to find RP as soon as one show up, he is very welcomed. It's easier, because he is a man in a genre where men are the natural authority, to lead the RP. Plus, a woman in SL Gor faces a few disadvantages. She cannot travel without escort and in some sims, NPCs are not even allowed. She is often required to have a protector. If she is a slave player, her possibilities are limited if she doesn't have a RP partner to play her master. She is not offered many choices, just one: the city kennels where all her RP will be controlled. 99,99% of Gorean sims won't allow her to use a NPC for her owner. She may be enjoying a scene with another player and have this scene broken because the slaver or the first girl decided she was needed in the tavern to serve random visitors.

I remember, with a friend (FW) we asked to open a brothel in a sim we had joined, with no a big traffic. We had excellent ideas, a good lore, we were ready to work non stop for the recruitment, the IC events, etc. The sim owner said no, because he was convinced that a tavern was a brothel and that two free women couldn't run a brothel. The quotes we provided never convinced him that he was wrong. We left. So, as much as for women pushing storylines...

But for men pushing storylines... Sorry, they are a minority as well, anyway...


They are, and I really felt it was a confidence thing. I tried to encourage people with minor missions just to start them along a path of meeting with strangers and making some progress. In Gor it was just assumed everyone could, but sometimes you need to introduce the process of negotiating into people.

The pressure builds with leading raids or larger storylines, equally. The pressure is on you to succeed else you'll be letting down your group. It's also seen in MMOs where very few people are willing to lead dungeon raids, whilst it may sound far from roleplaying, it's actually very similar pressure. Most people would rather follow.

Sasi wrote:10 years of "elite" Ar... Where you didn't play... But still, you talk like a specialist of this question...

In all these Ar, the ubar was not always the sim owner. But the last Ar where I played, the sim owner had created a character who was even more powerful than the ubar, then micromanaged the RP when he understood that his character would lose. He influenced the RP in using his OOC position of sim owner. He got away with actions that would have not been accepted from a mere player and ruined a whole storyline.

The interactions in a household may be made of emotions, sentiments, character development with nothing of tea party or mundane. You're full of prejudices and as I said, prompt at judging the RP of people with whom you never played.


I haven't been involved in these Ars, it's true. But I'm not prejudiced, I'm only looking at the results of six Political Ar sims and zero achievements. Something is clearly wrong with this scene and it's not my judgement.

Sasi wrote:No Tantus, it's how you build a character. Everyone fake it? But all our characters are fake, they are creation of our imagination. You give your char a personality, some merits, some weaknesses, some strengths an age, a societal status. You must do it because in RP, you start portraying an adult character, not a new born baby... And adult people have already a personality, strengths and weaknesses.
When you build a character, you give him an age, an experience. And he can be whatever you want. As long as the backstory is plausible. You need different types of characters in your Gorean city. The low caste, the high caste, the wealthy merchant, the poor one, the artisans, the warriors, etc. Unlike you want all the base player in a sim which newly opened, be made of young people of 18 and those of experience and wealth being all NPC? I'm a strong supporter of NPCs, but at the end I interact with players and I don't think it would be fun to play with a bunch of "post-teen" characters...

You should know as well that you can start a character with strengths and weaknesses and everything can change, evolve, while your char confronts other characters and faces different situations. Nothing is written in the stone. Do you think that starting with the backstory of a wealthy character, will make this one immune of changes, that his personality won't evolve, he won't discover weakness in himself, couldn't grow stronger or the complete opposite?
Your statement explains maybe why so many people keep the same character, years after years, even it doesn't make sense after their char changed home stone 3 times per year, joined a few castes....


There's absolutely no chance of picking weaknesses and strengths from a predefined list then calling it your imagination. The guys who choose 'drunkard' don't act affected by alcoholism, the women who take 'glutton' still keep slender avatars.

I would prefer a person begins as a struggling or mildly successful merchant, thereafter his business is limited by the contracts he secures with other players. It encourages interaction and creativity. When a character begins with vast wealth his inspiration is stunted. At this point you may want to refer back to the wealthy characters across six iterations of Ar, whom were collectively useless.

I have no issue with characters who've been in game for years, not all of them are Home Stone hoppers.

Sasi wrote:I already told you that I played in one of the versions of ROAIF (my char was a bastard of an noble house) a few years ago. A few weeks later, the sim closed for a complete rebuild and I turned my interest toward a fantasy sim. But just with the application process, I had understood that it promised standards you seldom get in SL Gor (a pic of your avatar dressed for the genre was even required). I was not disappointed.


A pic to join an RP sim? That alone would turn me away, asking for free RP is one thing, but now they want your pics too. Because having an avatar decked out in gachas makes you a better roleplayer.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:26 pm

Tantus wrote:This post was eye opening, Ivar's Landfall and Maelstrom too, a BTB Lifestyle sim and a GE Lifestyle sim, respectively.
If Hochburg was a dubious choice, these two sims were scandalously idiotic in all their iterations. I wouldn't use a latrine in Maelstrom since I have greater respect for my virtual faeces than dumping it on their sim.
And now I do recall this was the occasion where Hochburg roleplayed winning the war and Kaelus also roleplayed winning the war. So you're correct, each side roleplayed the outcome how they wanted.
Having read the war's setup, it describes the conflict external to Kaelus. Within the city itself, I was asking how the occupation was overturned by the citizens. Presumably it was a predefined event set to occur after the Hochburg war.
So Kaelus roleplayed victory, then a shift of power occurred within the city. And the occupiers were arrested or it happened another way?

Your definition of what is a lifestyle sim, a lifestyler is irrelevant and totally incorrect. You sound like a lifestyler, to me, when you support specific rules written to protect slave players against SL predators...

Sais has a lifestyler as owner... Remember? Did you oppose to Tarnwald raiding Sais? Or other lame sims like Fina, etc...?
We didn't need to rp with Maelstrom (who were those who definitely caused the biggest issues). They were essentially presents as fighters. Hochburg and Maelstrom freaked out as Kaelus was winning battle after battle. We never found an agreement.

Kaelus played the outcome as the winner. That was legit. Hochburg considered themselves as winner. Not a big deal.

The internal conflict within Kaelus, between the Arian occupation and the rebellion, was not a simple event, but the sim lore itself. Each part played their role. At the end, the rebellion was about to take over, but the admin team split at the beginning of the summer. We had worked too much, often at the expense of our own RP, for a high maintenance crowd (as I said, the issue with this kind of player base is definitely that: High maintenance).

Tantus wrote:I mentioned before, my female friends on Urban sims insist the men are needier there, with so many expecting commitment after a scene. Any expectation of another's availability without mutual agreement is detrimental to roleplaying.

Once again, expectation is not demand... You can expect, nothing wrong with that. But you cannot demand. An expectation only engage yourself. A demand requires a mutual agreement from all involved parts.

Tantus wrote:Yet you classified Tarnwald as a Lifestyle sim, where you apparently enjoyed some roleplaying too.
What began as my bragging to several people is now turning into an impression of something or other. It's irrelevant to me, these friends of yours probably came from Maelstrom.

By your definition, Tarnwald would be a lifestyle sim.
And I told a few times already, that the way you talk of this trade alliance gave some people this impression, one you don't acknowledge. You said "rumor", I told you it was not.

Tantus wrote:They are, and I really felt it was a confidence thing. I tried to encourage people with minor missions just to start them along a path of meeting with strangers and making some progress. In Gor it was just assumed everyone could, but sometimes you need to introduce the process of negotiating into people.
The pressure builds with leading raids or larger storylines, equally. The pressure is on you to succeed else you'll be letting down your group. It's also seen in MMOs where very few people are willing to lead dungeon raids, whilst it may sound far from roleplaying, it's actually very similar pressure. Most people would rather follow.

I won't gainsay that.

Tantus wrote:I haven't been involved in these Ars, it's true. But I'm not prejudiced, I'm only looking at the results of six Political Ar sims and zero achievements. Something is clearly wrong with this scene and it's not my judgement.

But what sim has an achievement? Most Gorean sims don't even have a lore! They open with zero backstory. You focus on these AR sims where actually, most sims in SL Gor don't last longer and often, when they last for years, they are just lame. Don't pretend that Rorus and Sais were the quintessence of amazing RP....

Tantus wrote:There's absolutely no chance of picking weaknesses and strengths from a predefined list then calling it your imagination. The guys who choose 'drunkard' don't act affected by alcoholism, the women who take 'glutton' still keep slender avatars.

I would prefer a person begins as a struggling or mildly successful merchant, thereafter his business is limited by the contracts he secures with other players. It encourages interaction and creativity. When a character begins with vast wealth his inspiration is stunted. At this point you may want to refer back to the wealthy characters across six iterations of Ar, whom were collectively useless.

I have no issue with characters who've been in game for years, not all of them are Home Stone hoppers.


I'm not especially fond of these lists, but they are only there as a way to assist people. You are totally free to pick something that is not in the list. And you have still to integrate these strengths and weaknesses in your background.

If you have to rely on other characters to become a wealthy one, good luck... Just take the example of a tavern master... The guy got 4 or 5 patrons per week, and he can be glad when they toss him some RP coin (most people don't even RP they pay, especially when the tavern master player is offline. At the end of the week, our guy earned, maybe, 10/15 copper tasks... Good luck to run a tavern with such a profit and become a wealthy tavern master....
I often played wealthy characters, even, of red caste (so, for a FW, zero caste work). I have always been able to make my char evolve, to learn from her mistakes, get in troubles, succeed of fail in her schemes. In Tarnwald, if my character had not been a woman belonging to a wealthy family, she would have been immediately collared by her captor. But she was capable of paying a ransom (although, she cheated in valuing herself for a 100 tarns ransom -her big ego-, a prize that her guardian would never accept...). Her wealth created RP.

You make me think of these people who advocated for the assassin players start playing their role in participating to a mandatory SL-Gor training and tried to get banned those who played such a character without having followed that training, even if they had read the books and studied their role...
But some of these approved assassins were lame RPers, messing with the RP etiquette, not even well familiar with the Gorean culture.

What is important is to be able to play a plausible character. With or without experience, poor or wealthy, it doesn't matter as long as the typist can play it in giving people an illusion of realism. As a good actor would do.

Tantus wrote:A pic to join an RP sim? That alone would turn me away, asking for free RP is one thing, but now they want your pics too. Because having an avatar decked out in gachas makes you a better roleplayer.

The pic was a part of the application. When you have a beautiful build, you don't want it ruined by outdated avatars. It's SL, so, a visual environment. Nothing wrong at making it visually enjoyable. If a sim owner pays for a beautiful build, it's just courtesy to put some effort in your avatar's appearance.
But ROIAF is kind of a medieval genre. So, I see nothing wrong neither in asking applicants to show how their character will be dressed accordingly.
It's annoying to have to ask people, later, once they joined your sim, to adjust because their outfit doesn't fit the environment... If it was required with the SL Gor applications, a FW player with a sheer veil on her pic could be asked to adjust and explained why this veil is wrong. The guy with Christian tattoos and piercing all over, could be refused a membership if refusing to adjust.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:27 am

Sasi wrote:Kaelus played the outcome as the winner. That was legit. Hochburg considered themselves as winner. Not a big deal.

The internal conflict within Kaelus, between the Arian occupation and the rebellion, was not a simple event, but the sim lore itself. Each part played their role. At the end, the rebellion was about to take over, but the admin team split at the beginning of the summer. We had worked too much, often at the expense of our own RP, for a high maintenance crowd (as I said, the issue with this kind of player base is definitely that: High maintenance).


This is where we have a disconnect, in how frequently you've named Kaelus as an impeccable example of lore-rich and story-driven roleplaying. The reality was a lore enriched by elements of Maelstrom, Ivar's Landfall and Hochburg.

The major activity on this sim were the weekly raids and tournaments involving GE fighters.

The actual storyline faltered before the headline event, the occupation never faced repercussions since these GE guys were happy to play the occupier but they all bailed-the-fuck-out when the tables turned. Not my definition of ICA = ICC.

But in a former thread, I think you mentioned your character did face repercussions since she was enslaved by your SL partner, so you guys roleplayed out your private story in a skybox. Not my definition of IC/OOC separation.


But the most appalling revelation of Kaelus wasn't anything above, it's this circus who dragged you around since Ko-ro-ba, it sounds like you joined four sims in as many months and were never satisfied with the quality of roleplay. Then you all opened Kaelus to show Gor how a real roleplaying sim was done, then turned into a GE raid fest with none of the principles I associate with intelligent storytelling and good roleplaying. The same group who criticised every other sim, also bailed out of Kaelus, their own project, after a month.

It's not the indicator of an individual with standards, these people are whiners, wastrels, to be avoided at all costs as they'll never accomplish anything.

Sasi wrote:But what sim has an achievement? Most Gorean sims don't even have a lore! They open with zero backstory. You focus on these AR sims where actually, most sims in SL Gor don't last longer and often, when they last for years, they are just lame. Don't pretend that Rorus and Sais were the quintessence of amazing RP....


Here our opinions on roleplaying diverge too, since you often offer up the Ars as an example of politically charged roleplaying. Seriously?

They attract the laziest individuals imaginable. And this is online. I dread to think how some of these people work and get through life when they struggle to accomplish anything in an online game. Anything but roleplaying pampered little princes, being waited on by NPCs and slaves.

Backstory counts for nothing when not a single participant is motivated towards enacting the lore. The fact that six Ar sims have drifted by with not a single shift in power, tells you how worthless Ar's roleplayers are. They're good for nothing but being pampered and though I don't want to drive this point, the only occasion an Arian Ubar was removed from power, was when he threatened my character.

I wasn't alone, the people of my town came together and we had some great roleplayers who made a fantastic effort towards manipulating Ar's politics towards a peace. That's how political roleplaying is done, when competent roleplayers make an effort.

To even suggest the Ars were an example of political roleplaying is disrespecting those who actually did something with their characters.


Sasi wrote:If you have to rely on other characters to become a wealthy one, good luck... Just take the example of a tavern master... The guy got 4 or 5 patrons per week, and he can be glad when they toss him some RP coin (most people don't even RP they pay, especially when the tavern master player is offline. At the end of the week, our guy earned, maybe, 10/15 copper tasks... Good luck to run a tavern with such a profit and become a wealthy tavern master....
I often played wealthy characters, even, of red caste (so, for a FW, zero caste work). I have always been able to make my char evolve, to learn from her mistakes, get in troubles, succeed of fail in her schemes. In Tarnwald, if my character had not been a woman belonging to a wealthy family, she would have been immediately collared by her captor. But she was capable of paying a ransom (although, she cheated in valuing herself for a 100 tarns ransom -her big ego-, a prize that her guardian would never accept...). Her wealth created RP.


It describes the routine within a Lifestyle sim's tavern.

Actual roleplayers who make an effort will be motivated to meet other characters, involve them into schemes and investments and there's no necessity for actual accounting. With a few contracts under your belt, you can legitimately roleplay being on the up.

In Tarnwald you were roleplaying with friends, I doubt your character was ever in any real danger as your friends weren't going to kill you. It's time you left your comfort zone and started playing on sims where everyone's a strangers, where your RP partners aren't your OOC friends, when absolutely anything can happen to you.

These are my conclusions after learning the truths behind the oft-mentioned Kaelus, Ar and even ROIAF. They worked for you, entertained you and that's great. As a roleplayer myself, I've learned more from their failings than anything they accomplished.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Leah » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:16 pm

Tantus wrote:In Tarnwald you were roleplaying with friends, I doubt your character was ever in any real danger as your friends weren't going to kill you. It's time you left your comfort zone and started playing on sims where everyone's a strangers, where your RP partners aren't your OOC friends, when absolutely anything can happen to you.


Why?

I'm serious. Why should she?

The vast majority of RP you'll find in those places is complete shit, unless the sim itself is app-only and they're actually serious about vetting people.

Why should she expose herself to that? Why should she take the risk that her character will be killed just because some rando got bored? I've done RP in those kinds of environments, and you know what? It's really not worth it.

It doesn't make you a "better" role player, anymore than stabbing yourself in the hand somehow makes you more "awesome." Both are equally stupid. What investment would anyone place in a character that Joe Blow can just whack for any reason, or no reason at all?

And don't tell me players aren't like that. Yes, they are. I've lost multiple characters to players just like that. Not for anything my characters did. Not for anything they provoked, but because other players were bored, or they were targeting my characters to get to someone else, or they just didn't like me, the player.

'Cause screw story. Joe Bob needs to be entertained, ladies and gentlemen, and if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, his character squishing yours is the height of entertainment. He's not interested in actual RP, he's interested in getting his jollies off.

Yeah, no, thank you. I don't have a problem with the threat of character death, and I for damn sure will go with the flow if it's part of an actual story, but I'm not going to traipse over to some sim full of asshats where "anything can happen" just to make some dude on the internet think better of me. :roll:

And it doesn't make me - or Sasi - a "bad roleplayer," or a "coward," or any other one of your ridiculously little insults to refuse to place ourselves into a situation where we're not going to enjoy ourselves. Ain't no martyrs here, dude.
This isn't fucking Survivor. We aren't a tribe.

If I won't put up with an in-character owner trying to control my OOC life, what makes you think I'll put up with you trying to do that?

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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:43 pm

Tantus wrote:This is where we have a disconnect, in how frequently you've named Kaelus as an impeccable example of lore-rich and story-driven roleplaying. The reality was a lore enriched by elements of Maelstrom, Ivar's Landfall and Hochburg.
The major activity on this sim were the weekly raids and tournaments involving GE fighters.
The actual storyline faltered before the headline event, the occupation never faced repercussions since these GE guys were happy to play the occupier but they all bailed-the-fuck-out when the tables turned. Not my definition of ICA = ICC.
But in a former thread, I think you mentioned your character did face repercussions since she was enslaved by your SL partner, so you guys roleplayed out your private story in a skybox. Not my definition of IC/OOC separation.
But the most appalling revelation of Kaelus wasn't anything above, it's this circus who dragged you around since Ko-ro-ba, it sounds like you joined four sims in as many months and were never satisfied with the quality of roleplay. Then you all opened Kaelus to show Gor how a real roleplaying sim was done, then turned into a GE raid fest with none of the principles I associate with intelligent storytelling and good roleplaying. The same group who criticised every other sim, also bailed out of Kaelus, their own project, after a month.
It's not the indicator of an individual with standards, these people are whiners, wastrels, to be avoided at all costs as they'll never accomplish anything.

I'm getting tired of this discussion which is going in circles. Every time I correct one of your assertions, you just reply with a new one even more slanderous. This discussion is just that for you, a way to denigrate a category of players.

Maelstrom and Ivar participated in the combats only. We very seldom RPed with them in the sim. There was one battle per week (battle, not raid). The rest of the week, it was sim driven storylines, played within the sim, involving the participation of no other sim. Our tournaments were fighting slaves ones and 100 % IC. There was nothing OOC, no OOC reward (never an OOC event, not even an OOC charity one). During those IC tournaments, we RPed (there were gambles), sometimes, the unexpected happened (as when my char mocked Ar in presenting a fighting slave that she had called Marlenus, angering the Arian occupants).

Don't speak of GE raids when you raided with old school Gor sims like Sais, which are far more GE than BTB (and lifestyle as well).

Absolutely no GE guy played the occupiers, no one. When the battle was ended, our allies (Ivar) were back to their sim as well as Hochburg and their ally Maelstrom. The Arian characters were entirely played by sim members.

My character was never enslaved by my SL partner in Kaelus (who was not yet my SL partner). She was enslaved by her FC (a player I didn't know before we start playing together).

No group left Kaelus, their own project, after a month. We had a dedicated admin team. The sim lasted 5 months.

Instead of assuming, ask, Tantus....

Tantus wrote:Here our opinions on roleplaying diverge too, since you often offer up the Ars as an example of politically charged roleplaying. Seriously?
They attract the laziest individuals imaginable. And this is online. I dread to think how some of these people work and get through life when they struggle to accomplish anything in an online game. Anything but roleplaying pampered little princes, being waited on by NPCs and slaves.
Backstory counts for nothing when not a single participant is motivated towards enacting the lore. The fact that six Ar sims have drifted by with not a single shift in power, tells you how worthless Ar's roleplayers are. They're good for nothing but being pampered and though I don't want to drive this point, the only occasion an Arian Ubar was removed from power, was when he threatened my character.
I wasn't alone, the people of my town came together and we had some great roleplayers who made a fantastic effort towards manipulating Ar's politics towards a peace. That's how political roleplaying is done, when competent roleplayers make an effort.
To even suggest the Ars were an example of political roleplaying is disrespecting those who actually did something with their characters.


Says the guy who only RPed in 3 sims (his own words), whose level of activity was rather discreet in Tarnwald, who was not even the author of the best storyline which has been played in this sim, and speaks of a trade alliance like a thrilling RP.

I remind you that never RPed with the people you denigrate..... At least, when I talk of snowflakes and lifestylers, I can speak by experience because I have already interacted with these people.

I don't know of what Ar you're speaking. You should explain how you deposed a ubar, how you named another like a puppet one, how your town occupied Ar, imposed her peace, ruled the city, put your own people in position of power, crushed Ar under your boot, how you punished the Arian citizens who opposed, etc etc...

Because I assume you did it that way and not with a series of diplomatic missions followed at the end by a peace treaty signed by Ar and your city, then, peace and love...? It's the favorite thing, I noticed, in SL Gor: Bring peace everywhere... Perfect for tea party and lovey dovey family RP (and trade alliances).

Tantus wrote:It describes the routine within a Lifestyle sim's tavern.

No, it's the way a tavern makes money. Patrons who pay for their drink and the use of a girl. Also, it's very possible to have interestings stories within a tavern. The little schemes amongst the girls to get a better position, their rivalries, jealousies, how they fight to serve a man whose collar they would love to wear...

Tantus wrote:Actual roleplayers who make an effort will be motivated to meet other characters, involve them into schemes and investments and there's no necessity for actual accounting. With a few contracts under your belt, you can legitimately roleplay being on the up.

It's what you do in a tavern, you meet other people. And of course, a tavern master can be involved in other schemes to get more wealth. But at the end, a tavern is a place for men to enjoy some good time. Were you not the one who regretted there was no real good paga den / tavern RP to enjoy with slaves entertaining men the way they should do?

Tantus wrote:In Tarnwald you were roleplaying with friends, I doubt your character was ever in any real danger as your friends weren't going to kill you. It's time you left your comfort zone and started playing on sims where everyone's a strangers, where your RP partners aren't your OOC friends, when absolutely anything can happen to you.

In Tarnwald, I was not in danger of being killed. I was in danger of being enslaved (and I don't have 3 day collar limit). My captor was Anarch. Anarch is a friend, but see, he would have never hesitated to collar my char. And actually, as he suspected that my character lied to him (about her intentions to gift him with 100 tarns) and tried to gain time, he stabbed her hand on a table... I spent the following weeks at rping the wound and the consequences of this wound (a scar and the fingers mobility problems).
Also, I RPed a scene with you and the trial of my character has been a public event... Not so bad for someone who supposedly, don't rp with strangers. And note, I had been really compliant because the praetor who ran this trial, in Tarnwald, was a woman.... Which was definitely not BTB and utterly ridiculous.

In Kaelus, the role of my character's guardian was played by an old friend. But still, when he discovered that his ward had betrayed him, he had marked her on a cheek bone with the slave mark of the treators... Nothing had been OOCly discussed (I'm not of those players with ridiculous limits such as no mark, no brand, blah blah)

If you are used to your OOC friends sparing your character, saving him from damageable consequences, don't believe it applies to others. My OOC friends have been, sometimes, my character's worst enemies and have never spared her. We separate IC and OOC, we are not our characters.

Because at the end, I know what to expect when I RP with friends in Gor: No lifestyle bullshit, no IC/OOC mixing, respect of the RP etiquette, creativity without non sense, characters with a plausible backstory (no snowflakes) and stories that fit the Gorean lore and culture.
So, to tell the truth, I'm not much willing to go play with the crowd you meet in your old school Gor sims. I'm here for my own enjoyment, not for the fun of those guys who claim that FW must know their place and slaves should work and never been lazy. I'm not there to play with these people who sort out a conflict with a female character in killing the slave and slapping the FW. I'm not into this form of masochism.

Tantus wrote:These are my conclusions after learning the truths behind the oft-mentioned Kaelus, Ar and even ROIAF. They worked for you, entertained you and that's great. As a roleplayer myself, I've learned more from their failings than anything they accomplished.

I corrected your assumptions. And you never came to conclusions. You started this discussions in basing your point on your own prejudices that you couldn't even base on experiences as you never involved in storylines with these people. Also, you defended this point with incorrect statements.

Your conception of role-play is, in fact, something close to a video game where players are expected to pass levels, gain points, fill quests and reach an objectif in order to win the game. You never approached the emotional part which makes the real interest of role play. The events are not for you an opportunity to express your character, his emotions, etc. Just a way to fill an agenda and win the game.

These are my conclusions.
Tantus
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:55 am
SL Name: Inactive
Caste: Scribe

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:17 pm

Really, it doesn't matter what you've roleplayed in Kaelus, Ar, or anywhere. The primary purpose of roleplaying is entertainment, if you enjoyed it, you've succeeded. Other people may not meet your standards but if they're having fun, they're succeeding too.

When someone posts severe criticisms and dismissals of other venues. Then the question arises:
"How did you do it better."

The foundations of a sim, including the rules, lore, applications, emerging storylines and planned events all sound positive on paper. In practice the experience is only mildly enhanced. A significant effort from the admin team results in modest returns. Because the weakest link are your roleplayers.

How well you govern your sim is almost irrelevant when you attract the same groups of people who settle in and do... nothing. I don't consider that people sitting in their homes, posting masses of paragraphs are actively contributing, they do nothing for the sim and then they leave.

The Ars aren't sims I'm picking on, they're just a convenient example. And if you want the details of our interaction with Ar, you could ask Theoden.

Kaelus was likely a fun place to roleplay, but you've sold it on credentials which didn't exist. If SL RP was a business, you would have been taken before the Advertising Standards Agency several times already for false marketing. It's misleading to sell it as a story driven sim when the Arian occupiers were never charged with consequences.

Everywhere you go in SL RP, will be a group of people who believe they do it better than everyone else. When you roleplay with them and look at their past record, they're no different than anyone else. So excuse me for being sceptical when these claims arise on the Gorums and there's never anything of substance behind the hype.

But as I say, if you're personally enjoying it, then you're succeeding in roleplaying.
Last edited by Tantus on Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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