Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

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Lacey
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SL Name: Lacey arentire
Caste: The White Ghost
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Location: South carolina

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Lacey » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:05 pm

Sasi wrote:
Tantus wrote:If you had ever managed a sim with 40-60 players online all day, you'd understand the challenges they face and why they process mass intakes of slaves as they do. I asked if you have better solutions, but you don't, all you have are complaints on how Lifestyle people run their sims.

It's not worth getting upset over. There are greater issues facing the world than these silly activities in an online game, put your mind away from them and onto things that really matter.


There is a simple solution: Give the slave players who don't have a RP partner for the role of their owner, a state slave tunic, tell them to play a state slave, without never controlling their RP (no slaver to annoy them with stupid rules, classes, non BTB intake process, chores...). Tell them to go seek their role-play, to interact freely with people, as they want, when they want. And if they find an owner for their character, the sale can just be emoted the way the 2 players choose to do it.

And allow as well the NPC owners for the slave players not interested in playing a state slave, a NPC they can keep for as long as they want.

This way, you will keep the most creative slave players, those who don't need to be babysitted. Others can stay in the old Gor crap sims where they will be treated like noob, given non sense boring and mundane RP, with ridiculous OOC rules to protect them from predators, because of course, in these sims, a slave player is not a mature adult.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
I should have never cut her hair!
Tantus
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:39 pm

Now you both understand how to manage slave players, have fun doing it on your own sims.

But you already did.... and.... nothing really happened. Maybe it's time to accept slave-players are mature enough to decide what interests them and for many, it isn't what you're offering.

Sasi wrote:And I have already explained to you that this first raid happened this way. And yes, they claimed having defeated Ar. Which made sense, because technically, they have won the raid, beat Ar. And I'm not putting the blame on Laura. I still consider that Ar totally failed at giving an authentic setting to the sim.


Except that, I was there and you weren't. So I would know how the raid unfolded but if you want to believe in a fabricated version of events then be my guest.

It's sounding like some bitter Arian related this tale to you upon their defeat and when it comes to your friends you're gullible to a fault. I respect your commitment to friendship but people who lie to you aren't your friends, they are using you.

For how many years were you on these forums insisting the players of ROIAF have no flaws, none at all, since Oor and Anarch filled your mind with a fantasy. I would like to see them take responsibility and apologize for misleading you and others on these forums, but really, you should take personal responsibility too and not believe everything everyone tells you as fact.


Sasi wrote:I prefer characters played with good sense and realism. When so many men who play a low caste character, or a physician, a scribe, play it as if they had warrior skills, you are just totally messing with the Gorean lore. SL Gor is full of people who think they're unique. They believe they are creative because they built up a character which is so unique that it became a snowflake. And there, you have mambas in your city who are scribes or slavers...
You speak of character development? There is no development when you make your character totally extra-ordinary since day 1.
It's to ordinary characters that the extraordinary tends to happen.


The Red Caste do not have a license on being armed, all men can be so when their situation allows for it. And when a man is armed, he should know how to use his weapon. This is common sense from a world like Gor, it doesn't introduce them into the ranks of the warriors as you suggest it. Each man plays his part in the defence of his Home Stone.

Sasi wrote:In the books, the forces of Cos and Tyros, 2 powerful states, took over Ar. And yes, in book 1, a powerful mercenary army -helped by the treason of the White Caste-.
Oh, and yes, because it's Ar. Most powerful city of Gor.


Whilst you're patiently waiting for all of these elements to come together in SL Gor, the rest of everyone is getting along with the tools they have and making the best of it.


Sasi wrote:"Elitist" is your own term, not mine. The sim to which I refer, that I co-owned or administrated, were not elitist sims. They were basic RP sims, with strict OOC / IC separation, everyone OOC equal, respect of the RP etiquette, solid lore, people with RP skills making them able to post more that one line.
ORS, as I told you, hit 20/25 K traffic. And Malignance, where I was a mere player, had a lot of people in the streets, traffic over 40K. This sim lasted 5 or 6 months, I guess.
Both sims had fractions, houses and intrigues based on power fight, conflicts, rivalries.
And yes, these people are fickle, keeping them interested for more 6 months is almost impossible. Once they achevied a storyline, their interest fade, they seek something new. It doesn't deny the fact they are still advanced RPers. Not those who are just happy for years with their dovey lovey family RP and consider their sim as their home, the local ubar as a kind of God and and call family the player base of their sim (which I find just ridiculous).
And actually, I prefer a sim where, for a few months, I will get some intensive RP, than one which will last for months with the same boring Gorean lifestyle, where the most thrilling sim event will be the companionship ceremony of the local blacksmith and the female high scribe and some raids.


It's more a case of players realizing the IC power on these political conflict sims, tends to transition from one Admin/Mod family to another. When the sim's direction is scripted and controlled OOC'ly, players rapidly lose interest.

When you have Admins/Mods, in roleplay, competing against others for political power, there will be conflicts of interest.

I'm not going to claim I remember entirely the course of these sims, but I don't recall Malignance as being active beyond its initial opening, the sim was rolling on life support for months before someone pulled the plug.

Sasi wrote:Clearly, you have not even a clue about what is political RP. It's a conflicting lore that make people intrigue and plot for gaining power, there is corruption, character (even those in position of authority) who betray, who lack honor... The only moments where you roll the dices is for the purpose of determing the outcome of some basic action, usually something simple as being wounded because your opponent had attempted to stab you. Little things like that.... The only time when I rolled the dices, I remember, was to determine if my character got pregnant, then, the baby gender (in ORS, there was a inheritance conflict after the pasha had been murdered).

The table about which you spoke, in one of the Ar sims, was just a map of the whole war that Ar conducted to gain more territories, more vassals. The OOC rules of this table made the moves hazardous but they gave a background in which we played (the legatus were in charge for their own legions). Some move could lead to a problem of supplying the armies, or the city itself. Other people played these things, merchants could speculate on cereals and other goods. But this table was not a political RP in itself.

And sorry, in the political RP, there is danger. Your character can totally be killed or enslaved. You seriously think that danger only comes from metered combats?


I've been part of teams who carried politically charged scenarios for months, with my character's life literally on the line. I'd say I understand the challenges a little better than someone who barely managed it for weeks before collapse.

Talking of Ar and their laughable bouts of 'Political RP', weren't you on sims run by Cali and also Erwin?
I'd have more respect for your political campaigns if you travelled to Disneyland and picked a fight with Pluto, than roleplaying with those characters. Don't ever assume your involvement in ORS/Kaelus/Ars where you've been an admin/mod/or immediately part of admin run families, is anywhere close to how dangerously I roleplay with my characters.

When I was involved in sims it was at the expense of personal roleplay, I literally had no time to take slaves or companion. It's the commitment you give towards making a sim work.


Sasi wrote:Tell me, were you not the high scribe, in Tarnwald, who sent this BS notice requiring people get a slave exam for their slaves and register them to the library with the slave papers and exam (notecarded)? This lame idiocy of non BTB RP / Old Gor crap is one of your solutions to give people something exciting to RP, Tantus?
A group of people left the day after they saw this notice.


I did send this notice since it was required by the sim and I recall that some FW I'd never seen before, very randomly and very angrily raged in my IMs, We're talking paragraphs of rage here, I've no idea what her life's issues were but I highly doubt a single Notice had set her off to being so rude. By the end of it, I genuinely felt for her companion. When a person that dramatic leaves your sim, good fucking riddance. I should have sent that notice sooner.

But I told her it could be completed in just a couple of minutes, the NCs were very brief, there's no requirement for lengthy slave exams. The idea around NCs is, if there's a future dispute to the slave's ownership then we can play it out IC'ly. It gives people opportunities to attempt forgeries too and it all plays out smoother than people pulling imaginary papers out from their buttocks.

When spending 2 minutes on helping a sim facilitate some legal roleplay is too much for a player, then their departure isn't a loss. An enraged woman dragging her obedient companion and slave out from the city isn't losing a 'a group of people', to me it was a relief because I can tolerate rudeness without becoming upset, but someone that unstable would have eventually attacked others and that wouldn't have been nice.

I'm now not surprised to learn she was a friend of yours.

Sasi wrote:So, in order to keep men interested, you have only to set metered combats? I find this statement a little bit demeaning for men...
But I agree with the fact that tournaments are something people enjoy. We had a fighting slave one (100% IC, no OOC reward) almost every Sunday in Kaelus. Some men of the sim even used an alt to play a fighting slave and fight in the arena. Our traffic during the week turned around 35K. The Sundays, with the tournament, it reached 45K.
In Capua, many gladiators were GE fighters who showed up for the combats and never RPed with other people, though. And if my memory is good, the political RP didn't cause the sim to close. After months, people lose interest and moved on. Capua closed when the traffic dropped to 15K after a few months. So, it looks like even these combats are not the magical solution to make a sim last.


When I'm being demeaning to male roleplayers, it's far worse than that :)

It's not metered combat, but variety which keeps men interested. A whole lot of sims hold a very narrow focus and expect to contain everyone within a single activity. It... doesn't last.

A whole bunch of Capua's gladiators were very actively roleplaying on the sim., perhaps 5-10 online in each Ludus at any given time. So you can denounce them as GE alts but they probably did more roleplaying on the sim than you did.

The city faltered when gladiators were no longer being paid over some political issues. My character probably became the wealthiest on the sim from his tournament wins, and these were perma-death fights for the loser. When his earnings were withheld he refused to risk his life further, it was fun playing a Gannicus themed character but good things come to an end so he bought out his freedom, retired out in the Italian hills with plenty of whores and wine, the best send off I've done to a character of mine as he had earned it. Whilst I can't speak for the specifics after I stopped roleplaying, I expect the loss of a gladiatorial scene had its repercussions upon the wider sim.

It seems the men on your sims were shy about roleplaying enslaved characters so they used alts to fill a tournament. Once in Gor we had a Ludus with some talented men playing fighting thralls. The FW who mistook them for submissive were the ones being violated indoors whilst others trained out in the yard.

Sasi wrote:It's hard to be in a public area and organize a scheme... I seldom RP in the streets myself. But I get people to come see me in my house or I visit them for my own schemes in their house. And RP in the streets is usually deeply boringly mundane...

A new GoT sim will open soon... Lot of political RP, conflicts. Not a lot of raids and metered combats to come, I fear, for you, Tantus :D


Roleplaying on the streets isn't exciting but it's necessary, otherwise people meet nothing and no one they can interact with, then leave. When I've been involved in a sim, I'll leave my character parked somewhere close to the entrance. People have the option to stop and RP with him or not, and if someone emotes, I'll switch into SL and help them along. Does it help to encourage new people onto your sim? I believe it does, a steady stream of newcomers keeps the sim alive for all.

Whatever this new GoT sim is, I don't even need to see it to know they'll attract the same crowd of coolkids from ROIAF with their same issues. If I held any interest for loitering in skyboxes with entitled millennials, I would have done it years ago in ROIAF.
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Sasi
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:02 pm

Tantus wrote:Now you both understand how to manage slave players, have fun doing it on your own sims.

But you already did.... and.... nothing really happened. Maybe it's time to accept slave-players are mature enough to decide what interests them and for many, it isn't what you're offering.


We already understood you were totally old fashioned when it came to Gor RP. I explained to you what kind of slave player this system that both Lacey and I support, we wanted to keep in a sim. Certainly not those who want to waste their time with the same boring slave exams, think SL Gor is a dating center to meet the dom of their dreams and are happy to RP chores, while calling you master / mistress in OOC talks. Yes, cookie cutters are definitely lost when told to take the control of their RP.

Tantus wrote:Except that, I was there and you weren't. So I would know how the raid unfolded but if you want to believe in a fabricated version of events then be my guest.

It's sounding like some bitter Arian related this tale to you upon their defeat and when it comes to your friends you're gullible to a fault. I respect your commitment to friendship but people who lie to you aren't your friends, they are using you.

For how many years were you on these forums insisting the players of ROIAF have no flaws, none at all, since Oor and Anarch filled your mind with a fantasy. I would like to see them take responsibility and apologize for misleading you and others on these forums, but really, you should take personal responsibility too and not believe everything everyone tells you as fact.


I was there as well, with 2 friends, following the raid with our cameras, and we were "wtf is that? Is our sim not supposed to be the city of Ar...?"
And I'm not putting the blame on your ex sim, Tantus... All the opposite. I put the blame on the owner of Ar who has been unable to create an environment where you could truly get the feeling of immersing your character in the most powerful city of Gor.
I never said the players of ROIAF had no flaws. But they're definitely people to whom you never need to explain how not to godmod, what is a NPC, how to write a decent emote.
And I already played in ROIAF, some years ago, before the sim close for a rebuild and re-organization, if my memory is good. And in other RP settings as well, urban or fantasy.

Tantus wrote:The Red Caste do not have a license on being armed, all men can be so when their situation allows for it. And when a man is armed, he should know how to use his weapon. This is common sense from a world like Gor, it doesn't introduce them into the ranks of the warriors as you suggest it. Each man plays his part in the defence of his Home Stone.


I have read the entire series of Gor books... I have yet to read the one, I suppose, where scribes and physicians wear a sword, are skilled at using it and behave like warriors and fight during raids, the way it's done in SL Gor.
Must be, because in the books, the art of mastering a sword is not part of their training.

Tantus wrote:Whilst you're patiently waiting for all of these elements to come together in SL Gor, the rest of everyone is getting along with the tools they have and making the best of it.


It's perfectly possible to bring these elements in SL Gor, actually... As for making the best of the tools the sims have to their disposal, I tend not to share your opinion on this point....
Also, you're the one who said he seldom played in SL Gor... Really, SL Gor does the best of the tools they have? I suspect it's not, neither, a "best" that suits your personal tastes.

Tantus wrote:
It's more a case of players realizing the IC power on these political conflict sims, tends to transition from one Admin/Mod family to another. When the sim's direction is scripted and controlled OOC'ly, players rapidly lose interest.
When you have Admins/Mods, in roleplay, competing against others for political power, there will be conflicts of interest.
I'm not going to claim I remember entirely the course of these sims, but I don't recall Malignance as being active beyond its initial opening, the sim was rolling on life support for months before someone pulled the plug.


Malignance hit 40K traffic for a few months and almost each week-end, a popular event. The only event which has been a fail, was the flood... Which didn't surprise me, these "natural disaster" events are always a flop. But this sim has been successful for months, sorry. Oh, and I'm talking of the first Malignance, of course.
Else, I have been a co-sim owner and admins in some sims where I involved into politicall schemes. Must be that OOC position which led sometimes, to the defeat of my character, ending up in collar.
And people around me had no issue about losing neither. In Kaelus, I remembered Theoden, who played the Arian regent, speaking of what would follow in termes of intrigues, once the rebellion would have defeated the occupation because it was totally what he expected.
There are players who can perfectly accept a defeat, even when they are OOC admins. And yes, they are too, sim owners, admins, who can't stand the idea of losing... I experienced that (with male sim owners, always....).

Tantus wrote:I've been part of teams who carried politically charged scenarios for months, with my character's life literally on the line. I'd say I understand the challenges a little better than someone who barely managed it for weeks before collapse.

Talking of Ar and their laughable bouts of 'Political RP', weren't you on sims run by Cali and also Erwin?
I'd have more respect for your political campaigns if you travelled to Disneyland and picked a fight with Pluto, than roleplaying with those characters. Don't ever assume your involvement in ORS/Kaelus/Ars where you've been an admin/mod/or immediately part of admin run families, is anywhere close to how dangerously I roleplay with my characters.

When I was involved in sims it was at the expense of personal roleplay, I literally had no time to take slaves or companion. It's the commitment you give towards making a sim work.


The best political intrigues in which I was involved, lasted for months. I remember you in Tarnwald, barely leaving your room. And the incorrect descriptive you gave about political RP, the contemptous words you use to speak of this genre and the emphasis you put on the metered combat, make me wonder what kind of political RP you have been part of, at the end.
And yes, I was in sim run by these 2 individuals. The first one would perfectly illustrate the conflict of interest a sim owner can create when he gives himself a role that make his character even more powerful than the ubar and uses his influence as sim owner to get aways with actions that would put another in big troubles, His last sim had been a flop when once again, he acted like a freak control, causing a big active group to leave (was not playing there, but I knew the guy who led this group).
The second one was basically a lifestyler, claiming there was no IC, no OOC, just Gor, requiring slaves to give tours, and pushing his traffic in logging 15 bots during the night (+ the few animals which were constantly spread around the sim). I guess this sim ended up in a huge drama. I played there... Hmmm... 2 scenes and went back to another genre.
But you have people who claim that female sim owners are the pleague of SL Gor...


Tantus wrote:I did send this notice since it was required by the sim and I recall that some FW I'd never seen before, very randomly and very angrily raged in my IMs, We're talking paragraphs of rage here, I've no idea what her life's issues were but I highly doubt a single Notice had set her off to being so rude. By the end of it, I genuinely felt for her companion. When a person that dramatic leaves your sim, good fucking riddance. I should have sent that notice sooner.

But I told her it could be completed in just a couple of minutes, the NCs were very brief, there's no requirement for lengthy slave exams. The idea around NCs is, if there's a future dispute to the slave's ownership then we can play it out IC'ly. It gives people opportunities to attempt forgeries too and it all plays out smoother than people pulling imaginary papers out from their buttocks.

When spending 2 minutes on helping a sim facilitate some legal roleplay is too much for a player, then their departure isn't a loss. An enraged woman dragging her obedient companion and slave out from the city isn't losing a 'a group of people', to me it was a relief because I can tolerate rudeness without becoming upset, but someone that unstable would have eventually attacked others and that wouldn't have been nice.

I'm now not surprised to learn she was a friend of yours.


Actually, Tantus, no friend of mine yelled in your IMs and was rude to you. My friends, as I said, packed their shit and left. There was, I guess, one FW with us, 2 or 3 FM and a few slaves. None of them were companions. They come from Ko-ro-ba which had closed. My best friend (who played a FM, although she was a female typist), at this moment, decided to open... Kaelus. I myself ended my story in Tarnwald and joined her. I didn't IM you neither. In fact, I'm the one who was left behind because I needed to end my story there and continue it in Kaelus.

And this notice was pure crap (Is it your conception of political RP...?). You required slaves to get a slave exam. Slave exams are boring, they are useless, and unless they have a particular purpose or can be played with creativity, they can as well be FTB.
But you are so old fashioned, Tantus, laugh... It is always possible to play a dispute around a slave's ownership, no need for a slave papers on a NC and the boring registration. I played a lot with no NC. And same for people around me. Papers can be emoted. It's easy, you should try. Of course, you will always find people who will require a NC... As if the NC proved anything... It's so easy to cheat with that, you take an old one in your inventory, you erase the text, you put whatever you want.
But between mature players, not having a NC for some papers, contracts, is never a problem, believe my experience. The old Gor crap people, of course... But we're not forced to play with them, at the end.


Tantus wrote:When I'm being demeaning to male roleplayers, it's far worse than that :)

It's not metered combat, but variety which keeps men interested. A whole lot of sims hold a very narrow focus and expect to contain everyone within a single activity. It... doesn't last.

A whole bunch of Capua's gladiators were very actively roleplaying on the sim., perhaps 5-10 online in each Ludus at any given time. So you can denounce them as GE alts but they probably did more roleplaying on the sim than you did.
The city faltered when gladiators were no longer being paid over some political issues. My character probably became the wealthiest on the sim from his tournament wins, and these were perma-death fights for the loser. When his earnings were withheld he refused to risk his life further, it was fun playing a Gannicus themed character but good things come to an end so he bought out his freedom, retired out in the Italian hills with plenty of whores and wine, the best send off I've done to a character of mine as he had earned it. Whilst I can't speak for the specifics after I stopped roleplaying, I expect the loss of a gladiatorial scene had its repercussions upon the wider sim.

It seems the men on your sims were shy about roleplaying enslaved characters so they used alts to fill a tournament. Once in Gor we had a Ludus with some talented men playing fighting thralls. The FW who mistook them for submissive were the ones being violated indoors whilst others trained out in the yard.


I recall most of these gladiators sitting in the ludus and other actually very active at raiding in SL Gor :) I tend to think that a minority were actually RPers. And Capua's traffic dropped after months. Sorry, but whatever the RP, it's always what happens to these sims with a focus on political RP. People start losing interest after some months. It's as if they had spent so much energy in their story that they ended exhausted, mentally exhausted and needed to cool down, to take a break. Sometimes, a direction taken by an ongoing storyline becomes the fuse.

And my character in Kaelus owned a fighting slave stables. The main character of some was definitely a male slave. In fact, I remember that I have been impressed when I started to recruit, by the number of men who were willing to play a slave. But I had guven a description of the role which was conform to the one given by the books. Men who were slave, not submissives, hating their collar. Kajirus (called Kajirus in the South whatever silk/labor/fighting slave, thralls for the Torvaldsland) are not submissive men, in the books.

The champion of Kaelus whose main character and avatar was an assassin, had specifically created this slave character because my notice where I mentioned I needed players who were skilled in metered combat (the tournaments were metered combats). Surprisingsly enough, he invested a lot of time in this char, and played it every day for hours. He has been part of the sim wide-storyline and played many 2 scenes with his former assassin main avatar. I guess I was not to bad at recruiting fighting slaves.
With the success of our tournaments, some men who played initially a free man, decided for the fun, to use an alt and participate.

Tantus wrote:Roleplaying on the streets isn't exciting but it's necessary, otherwise people meet nothing and no one they can interact with, then leave. When I've been involved in a sim, I'll leave my character parked somewhere close to the entrance. People have the option to stop and RP with him or not, and if someone emotes, I'll switch into SL and help them along. Does it help to encourage new people onto your sim? I believe it does, a steady stream of newcomers keeps the sim alive for all.


When I RP in the streets, it's mostly with slaves, the way FW are with them in the books. I pride myself at being rather creative, at involve them in my scenes as active and important part. I especially like to play this latent rivalry between slave girls and FW and noticed that my RP partners enjoyed it as well. When one of my characters is in the streets, it's not to help people along. I'm never the local guide (even if playing a slave). I have zero interest in playing these boring scenes with new people who shop for a new sim and limit the scene to a casual IC chat about the city, what to expect, what jobs, how nice are the other citizens and what they would expect to find there. Fucking boring. If you shop for a sim put an observer tag, watch the RP around you, stay in chat range with people who RP behing the walls.
Most visitors expect a warm IC welcome. It's ridiculous. Strangers are looked upon with suspicion in Gor. FW should know that they cannot expect the protection given by the home stone, as they don't share it with the locals. What was the last time I felt threatened while setting a foot for the first time in a foreign city...? I just don't remember. Usually, a kind slave all happy to serve a FW came kneel at my character's feet... But dare to enter as an assassin and even the local potter feel allowed to defy you instead of trying not to piss in his pants. Siiigh.

Tantus wrote:Whatever this new GoT sim is, I don't even need to see it to know they'll attract the same crowd of coolkids from ROIAF with their same issues. If I held any interest for loitering in skyboxes with entitled millennials, I would have done it years ago in ROIAF.


That will be terrible... Go figure: A RP environment where in OOC, you're not explained how to handle a slave, no whining about princess slaves, nobody considering you like a proud and honorable man of Gor, no rant against NPCs or these slaves who dare to have RP standards and velcro collars, no "heeeey, bros, we raid today???".
Yeah, that's lame...
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Qingwen » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:46 am

Oor wrote:
Tantus wrote:About Illyros, if your stated intention was building a sim solely to test a stringent application process, then it succeeded. So far as I know, no actual progress was made on the roleplay front. People just didn't leave their cosy houses or make an effort to roleplay with others, so it may have been open for 2 months, but 90% of the duration was as an inactive sim.

I'd suggest your next 'Elite Application-Only' sim should maybe like... recruit people who roleplay too.


I'd describe the Illyros experience as "cosy". The population was low, but those who played there regularly (there were a good handful of us!) tended to follow up on story threads and share info through the RP. While it lasted, it was fun.


Yeah Illyros was a good attempt, it just died an early death when the sim owner went *poof*. I didn't find the application process difficult at all - and I am an extremely lazy app-filler. I don't understand why it was considered so hard tbh. Overall I had fun there too, and didn't lack for roleplay.
"Who are you people?!" - Patrick Star
Qingwen
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Qingwen » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:51 am

Tantus wrote:The game is including all sorts of mechanics, they possibly will have a moonblood stat too! :shock:

Each server will have a unique map(US, EU, AUS) which their communities are voting on this month. The maps show Kingdoms(Player-Monarchs paid $10,000 per title), divided into Dutchies, divided into Counties(the dark, thin borders). Within those counties will be player constructed towns, villages, farmsteads run by Mayors, who report up to Counts, to Dukes, to Monarchs.

Definitely much scope for GoT style politics and betrayals 8-)



$10,000 like real money? dayum... :shock:
"Who are you people?!" - Patrick Star
Tantus
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:20 am

Yes, real money! :D

During the Kickstarter campaign it was:
$10,000 a Kingdom
$3,500 a Dutchy
$500 a County.

There are now 16 monarchs across 4 servers. I like that players have real money invested into the world, it should make for interesting times ahead.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:41 am

Sasi wrote:We already understood you were totally old fashioned when it came to Gor RP. I explained to you what kind of slave player this system that both Lacey and I support, we wanted to keep in a sim. Certainly not those who want to waste their time with the same boring slave exams, think SL Gor is a dating center to meet the dom of their dreams and are happy to RP chores, while calling you master / mistress in OOC talks. Yes, cookie cutters are definitely lost when told to take the control of their RP.


Absolutely I believe in good old fashioned, immersive roleplaying. Not the mix of OOC cliques and cronyism commonly seen on 'advanced' roleplay sims.

And I hardly ever roleplayed with slaves, this whole thing is a non-issue for me. I once encountered a slave in Salernum, she posted a scandalous emote then sprinted off towards her tavern. That level of flirting is something you don't see in Gor any longer, since whether it's a lifestyle, cookie-cooker(whatever they are) or advanced slave-player, they all play these mundane, asexual females waiting for the right man to come along and awake her sexuality.

Sasi wrote:I never said the players of ROIAF had no flaws. But they're definitely people to whom you never need to explain how not to godmod, what is a NPC, how to write a decent emote.


If I were so inclined, I could dig up old forum posts where you and Oor were insisting ROIAF players were entirely without flaws. Its worse when players understand these definitions and still cheat, metagame and godmod to get an advantage over their competition.

Knowing definitions is not a qualification for good roleplaying.

Sasi wrote:I have read the entire series of Gor books... I have yet to read the one, I suppose, where scribes and physicians wear a sword, are skilled at using it and behave like warriors and fight during raids, the way it's done in SL Gor.
Must be, because in the books, the art of mastering a sword is not part of their training.


I get that you subscribe to a submissive view of Gor, where men lay down and roll over for an enemy. But I will explain it this way, in actual Gor a city has thousands of defenders ready to man the walls. The citizens aren't in any immediate danger. But when a city is invaded then every man is expected to defend his home.

In SL Gor, you're always at the stage of heightened danger and you respond by being permanently armed.

Outlaws wrote:"Indeed, frequent enough were the stories where even a warrior was overcome by an angry peasant into whose hut he had intruded himself, for in the vicinity of their Home Stones men fight with all the courage, savagery and resourcefulness of the mountain larl.



Sasi wrote:It's perfectly possible to bring these elements in SL Gor, actually... As for making the best of the tools the sims have to their disposal, I tend not to share your opinion on this point....
Also, you're the one who said he seldom played in SL Gor... Really, SL Gor does the best of the tools they have? I suspect it's not, neither, a "best" that suits your personal tastes.


Go ahead and bring three active sims to SL Gor, each manned by responsible roleplayers.

Sasi wrote:Malignance hit 40K traffic for a few months and almost each week-end, a popular event. The only event which has been a fail, was the flood... Which didn't surprise me, these "natural disaster" events are always a flop. But this sim has been successful for months, sorry. Oh, and I'm talking of the first Malignance, of course.
Else, I have been a co-sim owner and admins in some sims where I involved into politicall schemes. Must be that OOC position which led sometimes, to the defeat of my character, ending up in collar.
And people around me had no issue about losing neither. In Kaelus, I remembered Theoden, who played the Arian regent, speaking of what would follow in termes of intrigues, once the rebellion would have defeated the occupation because it was totally what he expected.
There are players who can perfectly accept a defeat, even when they are OOC admins. And yes, they are too, sim owners, admins, who can't stand the idea of losing... I experienced that (with male sim owners, always....).


It doesn't sound like the RP lasted for long after those defeats. Events occur, roleplay simmers down, sim goes quiet.

Sasi wrote:The best political intrigues in which I was involved, lasted for months. I remember you in Tarnwald, barely leaving your room. And the incorrect descriptive you gave about political RP, the contemptous words you use to speak of this genre and the emphasis you put on the metered combat, make me wonder what kind of political RP you have been part of, at the end.
And yes, I was in sim run by these 2 individuals. The first one would perfectly illustrate the conflict of interest a sim owner can create when he gives himself a role that make his character even more powerful than the ubar and uses his influence as sim owner to get aways with actions that would put another in big troubles, His last sim had been a flop when once again, he acted like a freak control, causing a big active group to leave (was not playing there, but I knew the guy who led this group).
The second one was basically a lifestyler, claiming there was no IC, no OOC, just Gor, requiring slaves to give tours, and pushing his traffic in logging 15 bots during the night (+ the few animals which were constantly spread around the sim). I guess this sim ended up in a huge drama. I played there... Hmmm... 2 scenes and went back to another genre.
But you have people who claim that female sim owners are the pleague of SL Gor...


I haven't emphasized metered combat over roleplay, ever, but I found it works as a balancing factor. GM combat also exposes those most inclined to cheat and interrupt roleplaying with their juvenile attitudes. I got to learn which sort of characters are frauds and those worth investing RP time in.

Considering how many lifestyle sims you've joined 'by accident', you could do with learning to spot the frauds too.

At times my avatar was parked away looking AFK, it's when I'm working. With an avatar logged in for communicating with those who might need caste things.

Sasi wrote:Actually, Tantus, no friend of mine yelled in your IMs and was rude to you. My friends, as I said, packed their shit and left. There was, I guess, one FW with us, 2 or 3 FM and a few slaves. None of them were companions. They come from Ko-ro-ba which had closed. My best friend (who played a FM, although she was a female typist), at this moment, decided to open... Kaelus. I myself ended my story in Tarnwald and joined her. I didn't IM you neither. In fact, I'm the one who was left behind because I needed to end my story there and continue it in Kaelus.

And this notice was pure crap (Is it your conception of political RP...?). You required slaves to get a slave exam. Slave exams are boring, they are useless, and unless they have a particular purpose or can be played with creativity, they can as well be FTB.
But you are so old fashioned, Tantus, laugh... It is always possible to play a dispute around a slave's ownership, no need for a slave papers on a NC and the boring registration. I played a lot with no NC. And same for people around me. Papers can be emoted. It's easy, you should try. Of course, you will always find people who will require a NC... As if the NC proved anything... It's so easy to cheat with that, you take an old one in your inventory, you erase the text, you put whatever you want.
But between mature players, not having a NC for some papers, contracts, is never a problem, believe my experience. The old Gor crap people, of course... But we're not forced to play with them, at the end.


So we're back to claiming those players who understand etiquettes will never exploit the game? It's admirable to believe the best in people, but it's a naive attitude to take.

In the context of IC documents, I consider it godmodding when people randomly produce papers without having acquired them through prior roleplay. Even if someone sent you a forged NC, it's preferable to godmodding, because that forgery is IC. It's something tangible which may return to incriminate them.

As to your friends this just gets better. I had no idea a group of some five people left the sim? It tells me how irrelevant they were. So these guys passed through a Ko-ro-ba, then Tarnwald, then Kaelus and clearly your sim wasn't up to their standards either as it was hardly a Longterm RP. In the absence of NCs to whine about they found other reasons not to extend their roleplay in Kaelus. Your judgement in making friends is about as poor as the sims you've settled on.

I would never associate with people as unproductive as these. And more to the point, I value my time, I expect every member of the group is as committed as I am.

The notice I sent obviously wasn't part of any political campaign, but learning how it expelled some whiners from Tarnwald, I can contentedly say it served a political purpose. They should have read the IC Laws of City which clearly stated the requirement for registering slaves. Advanced roleplayers who've yet to understand the basics of roleplaying? Total shocker.

If anyone needs to ask, who decides who is an Advanced Roleplayer?
It's basically like the guys who decide they're RL Masters, and add it into their profile.

Also, I wasn't the head scribe at Tarnwald, neither did I write their laws. Being about the only active scribe in town meant I was representing defendants in court, running diplomacy for a trade alliance, helping out with forms and registrations as with anything else the sim required. Everyone invests their time to help a sim and I do my part where I'm needed.

So when some crybaby complains they won't spend 5 minutes to help a sim's process, they can leave. I have absolutely no care for these dramatic groups who leave and take their whole family with them.


And back to Notecards, I've always found them an excellent tool for roleplaying. Used responsibly.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:03 pm

Tantus wrote:
Absolutely I believe in good old fashioned, immersive roleplaying. Not the mix of OOC cliques and cronyism commonly seen on 'advanced' roleplay sims.

And I hardly ever roleplayed with slaves, this whole thing is a non-issue for me. I once encountered a slave in Salernum, she posted a scandalous emote then sprinted off towards her tavern. That level of flirting is something you don't see in Gor any longer, since whether it's a lifestyle, cookie-cooker(whatever they are) or advanced slave-player, they all play these mundane, asexual females waiting for the right man to come along and awake her sexuality.


What you described, above about these mundane slaves, is exactly that. Old fashioned RP. No immersion at all, IC and OOC mix, where people expect you will still behave like your character, in all OOC contexts.

You should maybe, sometimes, better choose your RP partners. Because for those with whom I played in SL Gor, flirting, sex, violence, conflicts, rivalries, were the daily RP. No mundane (like going to record a slave to the library). My RP partners who depicted a slave girl character, did it the way it's done in the books.
If you don't try actively to RP with slaves, of course, you are not going to get rid of your prejudices.

I could as well point out that most men in SL Gor are boring puritans, who freak out when a slave girl approaches them in emoting her sexual needs, begging for their touch. SL Gor is the place where you have men emoting they prefer FW, that they are not attracted by slave girls who beg for sex, blah blah blah....
In SL Gor, most people play a Gorean character who has a mentality from Earth.


Tantus wrote:If I were so inclined, I could dig up old forum posts where you and Oor were insisting ROIAF players were entirely without flaws. Its worse when players understand these definitions and still cheat, metagame and godmod to get an advantage over their competition.

Knowing definitions is not a qualification for good roleplaying.


I always stated one important point: These people in ROIF have a far better understanding of role-play rules. Godmodding, metagaming etc, certainly happen. But not at the same level you observe in SL Gor. In SL Gor, for example, it's ok to slap a slave, to grab her, drag her, etc without never phrase these actions as an attempt, without giving the typist a way to react. If the slave player dares to express an objection, she gets a lot of OOC crap. In SL Gor, it's ok to walk straight to a scene and emote, without checking first what was going on. In SL Gor, shot gun your one lines posts is acceptable and if as a slave player, you ask people to take turns, expect being treated like shit. You will never see that crap in ROIF.

Being familiar with the RP etiquette, is definitely not a qualification for good roleplaying, I agree. Messing with this etiquette, disqualify you definitely for any roleplay. These rules are the basics. No role player should ignore them.

Tantus wrote:I get that you subscribe to a submissive view of Gor, where men lay down and roll over for an enemy. But I will explain it this way, in actual Gor a city has thousands of defenders ready to man the walls. The citizens aren't in any immediate danger. But when a city is invaded then every man is expected to defend his home.

In SL Gor, you're always at the stage of heightened danger and you respond by being permanently armed.

Outlaws wrote:"Indeed, frequent enough were the stories where even a warrior was overcome by an angry peasant into whose hut he had intruded himself, for in the vicinity of their Home Stones men fight with all the courage, savagery and resourcefulness of the mountain larl.



With the 34 books I read, I think I have a far better grip of the context for this situation you talk about. And still, you have no description of scribes, physicians, wandering in their city with a sword and a bow. Because the use of these weapons are not part of their training, simply. In SL Gor, it's not uncommon at all to meet a scribe armed like a warrior when it should be justified as an exception with the according background supporting it.
My view of Gor is the one described by the books, where men fiercely abide by their caste skills, where not all men have honor and courage, where nothing is all black and white, where slaves are considered like real women and FW rather as an annoyance.

Also... In SL Gor, people don't even understand what is a home stone. They confuse it with the place where their character live. So, as soon as their sim close, they join a new city and swear loyalty to the local home stone, without realizing that in doing this, they basically reny their former home stone, a part of their identity. They are reluctant at creating a new char or writing a background justifying they left their city, joined another one but without changing home stone. Home stone velcro....

Tantus wrote:Go ahead and bring three active sims to SL Gor, each manned by responsible roleplayers.

Why should I do that? You're the one who is defending and supporting this environment. Not me. I'm not even playing in SL Gor, actually. I guess I took a look at the BTB sim list in "search", maybe, this summer...?

Tantus wrote:I haven't emphasized metered combat over roleplay, ever, but I found it works as a balancing factor. GM combat also exposes those most inclined to cheat and interrupt roleplaying with their juvenile attitudes. I got to learn which sort of characters are frauds and those worth investing RP time in.

Considering how many lifestyle sims you've joined 'by accident', you could do with learning to spot the frauds too.

At times my avatar was parked away looking AFK, it's when I'm working. With an avatar logged in for communicating with those who might need caste things.


You don't emphasize metered combat over RP?

Tantus wrote:When I roleplayed a Red Caste character, I would bring new additions to our Caste into the arena. It didn't matter where they came from, whether this guy was a veteran or First Sword from his former city. They would be made to spar, and spar, and spar until I was satisfied they had their shit together.


I wonder what it would be, in this case, if you emphasized metered combat, lol... Because excuse me, but with such a training, when do these new additions have time to RP...? In this comment, you obviously prize more the combat skills of these players than their abilities to role play and create good storylines.

Also, I never joined a lifetsyle sim. The majority of SL Gor sims label themselves "role play sim" (was as well Lacey's point). But as I demonstrated earlier in this thread, in posting a common example of slave rules and so-called slave training courses, there is definitely a part of lifestyle in most sims. Should I mention how common is it, and never corrected, to see players speak and behave in the group chats of these RP sims, as if they were their character? Men and women addressing slave players with "girl", slave players addressing those who play a free with master / mistress.... That shit is lifestyle.
When you accept specific rules to protect slave players against OOC predators, you, too, support a lifestyle rule.

Tantus wrote:So we're back to claiming those players who understand etiquettes will never exploit the game? It's admirable to believe the best in people, but it's a naive attitude to take.


I already replied. See top of this post.

Tantus wrote:In the context of IC documents, I consider it godmodding when people randomly produce papers without having acquired them through prior roleplay. Even if someone sent you a forged NC, it's preferable to godmodding, because that forgery is IC. It's something tangible which may return to incriminate them.


So old fashioned, Tantus...

Let's take this example of a dispute about a slave ownership. First, in the books, not all slaves have papers. Second, why do you assume, because there is no notecard, that the players didn't RP their part? Why do you assume, for example, that a sale has never been effectively played, involving the owner of the slave, a slaver, and the slave, maybe, months ago, just because they didn't bother with a NC they would have to write in taking on their RP time?
Last times my FW got companioned, the contract, its writing, were played, but we never wrote a NC.

With your reasoning, Tantus, we could invalidate all RP from people playing a caste, under the pretext that their training is a part of the background they wrote and had not been effectively played, because they have no NC of a paper signed by the head of their caste council, which could prove it.

Plus, who are you to decide that people who wrote together their background, are goddmoding because they can't provide a NC? When my FW char got enslaved by an assassin, my RP partner and I RPed that for hours, during 15 days of intensive RP.
And because my RP partner couldn't provide a NC, you would call him a godmodder...?

It's a non sense, Tantus, totally silly.

Tantus wrote:As to your friends this just gets better. I had no idea a group of some five people left the sim? It tells me how irrelevant they were. So these guys passed through a Ko-ro-ba, then Tarnwald, then Kaelus and clearly your sim wasn't up to their standards either as it was hardly a Longterm RP. In the absence of NCs to whine about they found other reasons not to extend their roleplay in Kaelus. Your judgement in making friends is about as poor as the sims you've settled on.

I would never associate with people as unproductive as these. And more to the point, I value my time, I expect every member of the group is as committed as I am.

The notice I sent obviously wasn't part of any political campaign, but learning how it expelled some whiners from Tarnwald, I can contentedly say it served a political purpose. They should have read the IC Laws of City which clearly stated the requirement for registering slaves. Advanced roleplayers who've yet to understand the basics of roleplaying? Total shocker.


That was a little more than 5 people and they were an active group. Ko-ro-ba had closed (Tarnwald, I guess, closed before Kaelus, btw....), 2 of my friends joined Tarnwald where I was to play with me and join the ongoing story I played in Tarnwald. Then, some ex Ko-ro-ba members followed, and later, 2 of these people -opened- Kaelus (I joined them as co-sim owner a few days later) and a former Tarnwald member became an admin and one of the key players (and one of the most creative on I must say). As for the lifespan of a sim, I guess we already treated this point.

Regarding the productive players, in Tarnwald, I especially remember Anarch who wrote the most important -political- storyline of this sim. For the weeks where I played there, Anarch was the most active and committed RPer of this place.

And what was written in the IC laws is one thing but it's another issue when you impose a RP via a notice in requiring people produce a NC when they could just FTB that shitty slave exam.

Tantus wrote:If anyone needs to ask, who decides who is an Advanced Roleplayer?
It's basically like the guys who decide they're RL Masters, and add it into their profile.


An "advanced RPer" in SL Gor, is the average RPer in other RP environments. Basically, a player who distances himself from his character, is familiar with the RP etiquette (won't shot gun his posts, take turns, phrase his actions toward another character as attempts etc...) and can write a detailled emote allowing other people to react.

Tantus wrote:And back to Notecards, I've always found them an excellent tool for roleplaying. Used responsibly.


They are useful as a letter, for the IC laws, for proclamations you put on IC boards for all people to read them, for example. But when some categories of players spend at the end, several hours per year, taken on their online time, in order to fill forms, slave exams, slave papers, slave sale papers, FC contracts, etc etc, these NCs become a burden and you can play without them.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:46 am

Sasi wrote:What you described, above about these mundane slaves, is exactly that. Old fashioned RP. No immersion at all, IC and OOC mix, where people expect you will still behave like your character, in all OOC contexts.

You should maybe, sometimes, better choose your RP partners. Because for those with whom I played in SL Gor, flirting, sex, violence, conflicts, rivalries, were the daily RP. No mundane (like going to record a slave to the library). My RP partners who depicted a slave girl character, did it the way it's done in the books.
If you don't try actively to RP with slaves, of course, you are not going to get rid of your prejudices.

I could as well point out that most men in SL Gor are boring puritans, who freak out when a slave girl approaches them in emoting her sexual needs, begging for their touch. SL Gor is the place where you have men emoting they prefer FW, that they are not attracted by slave girls who beg for sex, blah blah blah....
In SL Gor, most people play a Gorean character who has a mentality from Earth.


You're an idealist, it's not a picture of reality, you paint scenarios as you want to see them. It's why you haven't learned anything in the slightest about people roleplaying online, nothing since the days you mingled with Lifestylers pre-BTB.

Now you're trying to paint me as some 'old Gor' roleplayer, when I was probably the first person on these Forums and in SL Gor, highlighting the fact that the lifestyle was spreading into BTB sims. That was in 2009, when it could have been contained but people were too naive to see it.

So, I was visiting a friend at Khalida earlier this year and after camming the sim and looking through their groups, I told her it was a Lifestyle sim and nothing was going to happen there. And I recall seeing you across the sim too settled into your house. It's like you have this attraction to Lifestylers, Khalida in 2018, Lifestyle Ar in 2017, probably if we looked through your RP history, you've made an annual pilgrimage to Lifestyle sims since the good times you had with them in Old Gor.

With your past experiences, I can't believe you have this difficulty identifying Lifestylers now. There must be some intent, something which draws you to the flame.

Somehow I'm meant to believe you have a good judgement in choosing RP partners? Hi Erwin.

So far as I'm concerned, if I happen to see you on a Gorean sim(Like the many Ar failures), I immediately know it's going to have high ideals but zero substance.

But you're Sasi, you don't do mundane roleplay, it's all "...flirting, sex, violence, conflicts, rivalries" in your daily RP, which lasts for your average lifespan on a sim, of a week, two weeks? If your RP Life is this exciting then why are you always on the move.

I'm amazed with all of this exciting roleplay on deep and cohesive RP sims, you abandon it all to answer the call of Lifestyle sims. The only reason these lifestylers keep IM'ing you with "kajira", is they keep seeing you on their sims, they think you're one of them.



As for anything else, it's clear we do things differently. My whole concern with these threads on the Gorums is, when a group of people claim they do it better, with deep characters, lore-rich sims and whatever buzzwords are tossed into the mix, I have higher expectations from them.

But if these sims average shorter lifespans and routinely end in drama, then it's nothing to write home about. So far as I'm aware, not a single 'Advanced RP' with select membership sim has lived up to its potential in SL Gor. Outside Gor, these sims all open with the same fanfare, backstories, applications and still follow the 3 month route to closure.

It wouldn't happen this way if your playerbase were as advanced as you believed them to be.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:23 pm

Tantus wrote:I'd suggest your next 'Elite Application-Only' sim should maybe like... recruit people who roleplay too.
Having people who roleplayed in ROIAF is really not an indication of any standard, they're one of SL's most toxic communities.


The Illyros application was basically just any other SL's RP sim application, but for some reason this was too difficult for 90% of the people who were used to playing in Gor. (Which tbh we kinda expected it to be anyway.)

On one end you could argue I'm an elitist, maybe I am, but my own true feelings about it all is that most RPers in Gor are pretty fucking shite and are used to some extremely low standards in SL Gor in terms of everything... RP rules, RP etiquette and even how to write a proper background. After having spent the past few years being the lead admin on several of the highest traffic (non-Gor) RP sims in SL it became increasingly obvious how a big majority of people which came over from SL Gor just always had major pains and issues fitting into other RP genres and communities. They were very often the main offenders of breaking sim rules or starting OOC fights over RP.

Most applications in Illyros got denied because we wanted believable characters while most applications came with backgrounds having been of caste x, then caste y, but also half a bit caste z ... while also having a panther mother and their uncle being Ubar of Ar. I don't mind unique characters (we even had feature roles for that), but too much is too much. Actually it didn't surprise me much, I kinda knew before someone submitted their application whether they'd write something proper within the guidelines or not already... for some reason sensible people who had always been fun to RP with in the past managed to fill out their applications (or make requested adjustments) without any issue at all. And then you've got the other bunch who've gotten so entitled in SL Gor that they got pissed off the moment you suggested some changes to their backstory to make it less of a brain sore.

Or well, some people really couldn't even wrap their head around the concept of a stand-alone Gor sim.

As for ROIAF being the most toxic community? Maybe. But it's also one of the few RP sims on which I've actually seen people play out unexpected defeat, and something I orchestrated myself rather recently (read: half a year ago): mass death scenes without anyone raging about it. Which for me will remain one of the most epic and most satisfying grand RP scenes I've ever witnessed.

I don't think people in SL Gor, those who still play in it nowadays, really grasp story. Most of the time it's just some singleton slave-girl RPer who against all odds tries to push her own personal story through a sea of less than mediocrity and then in the end gives up because it's too difficult to keep making any sense out of it.

Maybe compared to all these people I'm elitist, or maybe I just don't find enjoyment in people's ignorance and misbehavior. I guess it all depends from what perspective you look at it. As a RPer I used to love RPing with everyone and engaging new people all the time...

In the meantime I'm still trying to understand why I always get so salty and negative when RPing in SL Gor, while in other RP genres I find myself much more engaged with actual story and role play, instead of having to get distracted by someone not grasping the basics of RP etiquette over and over and over again. And this might come across like someone preaching about absurd standards, but in truth all I'm expecting from people is: don't be a cunt and try to have fun with the story instead of turning it into some OOC competition where you're no longer separating between yourself and your character.

SL Gor is a great genre with some good ideas that are definitely fun to RP, but it's just the community and the extremely low / non-existing standards towards RP etiquette and not being open to new ideas or new approaches to RP that ruins it for me. SL Gor is stuck somewhere in the year 2008 or so and seems to slowly be dying until everyone grows bored with that approach.

Oh and as for being able to RP? Yeah, I totally was guilty of that while we were trying to get Illyros going. I personally was too busy with work to have much energy to RP in the evenings when I got home. It's the same reason why I probably don't have time to RP at all right now. Adulting sucks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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