Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

This forum is for General topics not otherwise covered in other forums.
Tantus
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:55 am
SL Name: Inactive
Caste: Scribe

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:34 am

I'm not going to circle around the slave-kennel debate, it's non-issue, but highlights the way a modern generation perceive roleplaying.

There was a time people asked, "what can I do for a sim."
Now people are all about, "what can a sim do for me."


Sasi wrote:Most raids are just a non sense.. I remember when a small town like Laura took over Ar (I don't remember what version of it) in a raid... How realistic was it?


The actual war involved Hochburg, Laura and Northern mercenaries against Ar, there was no occupation of the city. The conflict lasted around 3 months with some seven skirmishes fought, each side took victories and losses. Factoring in for the additional sims who funded the war effort, there was a heavy emphasis on trades, treaties and diplomacy and less so on the raiding.

If the Arians(whom likely related this event to you) felt like they'd been taken over, it's a testament to the pressure put upon them, diplomatically and politically with their internal factions turned against one another.

Now whilst you may want to take a dig at the event, which 'political' roleplays have you ever managed involving multiple other sims. And now I'm interested, which 'political' roleplay have you done where you weren't an admin on the sim, roleplaying with your close friends.

Sasi wrote:In the books, a raid upon Ar is made of a few tarnsmen, they take time to capture some women, then, flee as soon as Arian Tarnsmen start chasing them. Simple like that. But in SL Gor, a raid organized in the purpose of capturing women is just not a valid reason.


Are you intentionally contradicting yourself here or expressing how little you understand of SL Gorean raids.


Sasi wrote:It's a good training if your sim focus more on raids and tournaments, and not too much on political intrigues, conflicts, long term storylines.... Because when you have the new warriors spar and spar, when do they find time to just, RP?


The two are not mutually exclusive, every sim should have a variety for keeping their men engaged. And I say men, because women can roleplay, roleplay, roleplay with no break in between. I liken it to the situation where some women can talk endlessly and men generally don't. It translates into how frequently you can emote too.

I remember when groups of women would be in Group Chat, complaining about 'boys playing with their toys', and how a 'real man' would be sitting with his companion. With that attitude it's really no mystery why these women are single in RL and looking for meaningful companionship online.

And you're making a similar statement in pressing a divide between raiding and roleplaying. But I can tell you the experience is most potent when both are combined. Men who raid do find the time to roleplay too and their roleplaying is better because of it.


However - for the sake of argument - let's look at your division of "political intrigues, conflicts, long term storylines" minus the "training and raiding'.

I've seen instances on these sims where men are roleplaying:

| Sloshes falarian wine around his gilded cup and with a sweep of his imperious hand, positions the Fourth Legion at the foothills of Venna. A further well executed sweep directs the Fifth Legion towards Rarn. His hand doth put the lives of legions on the balance. Men shall perish, few will return, but cities shall be conquered.|

Give it a few more days of this intriguing roleplay and then the penny drops. It's all a big fucking farce. There's no conflict but a map table, your greatest enemy is the little pair of dice rolling around it. There's no actual substance to this war but endless emoting of how great and important you all are. There's no enemy to challenge you, no danger coming back to you, nothing intriguing beyond an hour of seeing what this scene was about and it's certainly not longterm.

None of these sims are populated beyond the first month. I think you had a sim, Sasi, where you probably pressed your attitude that men shouldn't raid, spar or do what interests them. Fuck no. They should be sitting down with women entertaining your needs alone. And that's how you ended up with the only sim in the history of SL Gor overpopulated by bisexual thralls. I don't recall its name but you should have called it Tharna.


Sasi wrote:Yes, some sims have standards, they ask you to prove you can type 5 lines to figure an action properly emoted. And so what? Is it a crime, in role play, for a sim, to fix some standards and build a community where people's RP style will match well? Able to fight? The Gorean sims with high standards tend to favor text combats, so, your metered combat skills seldom matter...


Those elitist GE sims back in the day went beyond setting standards, being a good paragraph-roleplayer wasn't enough to join them. Imagine a time where groups only accepted the top 5% of players who can 'fight' and make violent-emoting look like an artform. Then you're understanding how elitist some sims became.
User avatar
Sasi
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:16 am
SL Name: Sasi

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:55 pm

Tantus wrote:There was a time people asked, "what can I do for a sim."
Now people are all about, "what can a sim do for me."


Nope, that doesn't work this way. Players owe nothing to a sim, at the end. They have many where they can go if they are not happy in one.
Sim owners opens a sim first and before all, for their own fun, for experiencing their own vision of Gor, of role-play. But if they want their sim get RP, they need to attract a player base. The players can't play if they don't have a sim, but the RP sim cannot exist without the players. It's 50/50.
The players bring their RP and traffic, the sim owners have to bring a setting that will keep the players happy.

It works that way:
Sim owners: What can we do for keeping the players happy ?
Players: What can we do for keeping the sim alive.

Too many sim owners tend to forget this simple principle.

Tantus wrote:The actual war involved Hochburg, Laura and Northern mercenaries against Ar, there was no occupation of the city. The conflict lasted around 3 months with some seven skirmishes fought, each side took victories and losses. Factoring in for the additional sims who funded the war effort, there was a heavy emphasis on trades, treaties and diplomacy and less so on the raiding.

If the Arians(whom likely related this event to you) felt like they'd been taken over, it's a testament to the pressure put upon them, diplomatically and politically with their internal factions turned against one another.

Now whilst you may want to take a dig at the event, which 'political' roleplays have you ever managed involving multiple other sims. And now I'm interested, which 'political' roleplay have you done where you weren't an admin on the sim, roleplaying with your close friends.


The first raid which happened in this sim (I was a mod at that time), was only run by Laura. They entered by the gate, left by the gate, claimed that Ar was defeated. After, yes, some war had been structured. But I didn't last long in this sim after it started to welcome too many snowflakes. I finally left and went to play in another RP environment.
Also, I don't consider that involving multiple other sims is a factor of success. In SL, too many people spend a lot of time at trying to organize storylines involving many sims, instead of first, focusing on the storylines which could happen in their own sim and involve their sim members. Which most RP sims do, off-Gor....

Tantus wrote:Are you intentionally contradicting yourself here or expressing how little you understand of SL Gorean raids.


Nope nope... You have a good description of a raid in "Prize of Gor", book 27, on Ar. There is definitely a difference between a group of Tarsmen who come pick up some women, slaves or free, and a bunch of guys who enter by a gate, assault the city walls, down everyone and exit by the gate.

It's true that the way the cities are built in SL suck. There are no high bridges... With a friend, we had built a Ko-ro-ba, for a sim owner, in 2013 or 2012 with functional high bridges. Sadly, the chosen meter turned people off. But it was probably the closest representation of a Gorean city as described in the books.

Tantus wrote:The two are not mutually exclusive, every sim should have a variety for keeping their men engaged. And I say men, because women can roleplay, roleplay, roleplay with no break in between. I liken it to the situation where some women can talk endlessly and men generally don't. It translates into how frequently you can emote too.

I remember when groups of women would be in Group Chat, complaining about 'boys playing with their toys', and how a 'real man' would be sitting with his companion. With that attitude it's really no mystery why these women are single in RL and looking for meaningful companionship online.

And you're making a similar statement in pressing a divide between raiding and roleplaying. But I can tell you the experience is most potent when both are combined. Men who raid do find the time to roleplay too and their roleplaying is better because of it.


They are not mutually exclusive if you don't require your warriors to spend much of their time in the arena.

As for women in group chat, well, they probably whine less, but is the lovey dovey family RP a thing of the past? No, as you know. And a woman cannot play alone that mundane crap. So, there is still a bunch of men enjoying this kind of RP. And don't let me start about those men who look in SL Gor for a sub....... Tantus, men are not better than women, in SL Gor... Both may equally suck, whatever their role.

And yes, I agree, a raid is fun. But I prefer when it's done realistically. I remember, in one of the Ar sims, an outpost setting had been built in a skybox. The attackers had too conquish it. Some FW, companions, daughters of warriors or just bold women, came to the outpost. They were the loot.

Also, another issue, is the rescue... One hour after is a ridiculous delay.... Give no time for the captor to play with their captives. No wonder why so many players, those not playing a warrior, tend just to turn afk or lock themselves in their house when a raid starts.

But anyway, the real problem of metered battles in SL Gor, are those players who behave like teens... Often, it just takes one to ruin an entire raid.

Tantus wrote:However - for the sake of argument - let's look at your division of "political intrigues, conflicts, long term storylines" minus the "training and raiding'.

I've seen instances on these sims where men are roleplaying:

| Sloshes falarian wine around his gilded cup and with a sweep of his imperious hand, positions the Fourth Legion at the foothills of Venna. A further well executed sweep directs the Fifth Legion towards Rarn. His hand doth put the lives of legions on the balance. Men shall perish, few will return, but cities shall be conquered.|

Give it a few more days of this intriguing roleplay and then the penny drops. It's all a big fucking farce. There's no conflict but a map table, your greatest enemy is the little pair of dice rolling around it. There's no actual substance to this war but endless emoting of how great and important you all are. There's no enemy to challenge you, no danger coming back to you, nothing intriguing beyond an hour of seeing what this scene was about and it's certainly not longterm.

None of these sims are populated beyond the first month. I think you had a sim, Sasi, where you probably pressed your attitude that men shouldn't raid, spar or do what interests them. Fuck no. They should be sitting down with women entertaining your needs alone. And that's how you ended up with the only sim in the history of SL Gor overpopulated by bisexual thralls. I don't recall its name but you should have called it Tharna.


There was a game in one of the Ar sims, with a giant map, where the legatus moved the legions. They had fun apparently and used it for their RP. Yes, definitely, that war was only a background on which we based all our political intrigues. But still, it was fun (at the begining, until some people start metagaming and godmoding...).

And no, I had not such a sim. I co-owned a sim for 5/6 months, where one of our talented RPers (Theoden) had organized an incredible setting for a very well structured war, figuring the progression of the armies. Every Saturday, a big battle was organized, anyone was free to join and fight for a camp (it involved 4 sims). Metered combat. But well, at the end, some people caused problems. You have always SL Gor teens who don't like to lose or systematically break the rules, causing OOC conflicts. I didn't interfere in this organization, it was the work of Theoden (his idea) that he executed in partnership with admins of the partner sims. The "thrall" thing, as you say, was another issue, caused by an external factor and I certainly didn't cause it because I wanted men just sitting down with women (which I never encouraged, as I told you, I hate the dovey lovey family RP, courting, babies). It was a city, occupied by Ar, with a focus on political schemes, an Arian faction, a resistance faction (My greedy FW was rather serving Ar, spying for the Regent, trying to infiltrate the resistance, betraying her guardian, while making her fighting male slave, the champion of the arenas, quite miserable who was growing hating her and plotting to get free). Almost every Sunday, we had a fighting slave tournament (totally IC where everyone could emote, no OOC reward). Many men had a fighting slave alt just for these tournaments.

Tantus wrote:Those elitist GE sims back in the day went beyond setting standards, being a good paragraph-roleplayer wasn't enough to join them. Imagine a time where groups only accepted the top 5% of players who can 'fight' and make violent-emoting look like an artform. Then you're understanding how elitist some sims became.


I was only talking about the BTB sims. I raided for one season in a GE sim, that was raids, raids and raids against other sims. Fun for a time, after, I got tired. People RPed randomly, privately, else, they hanged up OOCly, laughing, joking, etc. I remember, around Christmas, some of us raided in pajama suit (unicorn, goat, frog themed...). I don't remember even one GE sim, at this time, which had these standards you cited.
And if you want an example of sim which definitely got the reputation of being an elitist one, it was Illyros. The sim didn't interact with other sims, you were required to fill a detailed application on the website, based on the model of those applications you have to fill if you wanted to join a sim such as ROIAF and prior to be allowed to play in the sim (what is commonly required in other RP environments). And your background had to be solid, realistic and really BTB. If you came with a character who had claimed a bunch of previous home stones, who was a FW having been free, then slave, then free, etc, if your char was a mamba, if he had been a member of several castes, if you were the offspring of a Torvi man and Tuchuk woman, etc etc, you were asked to re-write your background. Also, you had to prove you could type a well constructed emote.
In SL Gor, this sim (meterless) definitely got a quick reputation of being snob and elitist. Of course, it lasted only 2 months, Our player base was essentially made of players from ROIAF who didn't even share the same timezone.... Most people in SL Gor don't want to make any effort and are very attached to their non sense character, the same they play since years, who claimed many home stones, joined many castes and belong to a dovey lovey family made of different castes and home stones where each member is loyal to each other, love and peace.
Qingwen
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:32 am
SL Name: Akane Nacht

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Qingwen » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:56 am

Tantus wrote:
The next roleplaying I intend to do will be in Chronicles of Elyria, humanoid races, a PvP world, contested territories and trade routes all make for a potent setting. I have $200 on this game so it had better deliver.


Looks ideal for GoT fans. I read your character ages and dies in that game. I wonder do we get a temp random power boost for virtual menopause? :D
"Who are you people?!" - Patrick Star
Tantus
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:55 am
SL Name: Inactive
Caste: Scribe

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:38 am

Sasi wrote:Nope, that doesn't work this way. Players owe nothing to a sim, at the end. They have many where they can go if they are not happy in one.


Great attitude! :thumbup:
It was always my experience that the more you put into a sim, the more you take out.

I thought you had roleplaying figured out but the further this thread grows, the less certain I am.

Sasi wrote:Nope nope... You have a good description of a raid in "Prize of Gor", book 27, on Ar. There is definitely a difference between a group of Tarsmen who come pick up some women, slaves or free, and a bunch of guys who enter by a gate, assault the city walls, down everyone and exit by the gate.


In your perception a raid could only be plausible if 200,000 avatars crammed into a sim defended by 200,000 men. Must I explain why raids haven't happened with half a million avatars on the sim?

In my perception when we raid it's not just a 'bunch of guys' downing 20 defenders.
Every combatant can represent 10,000 men, the IC implication is of a breach in their defences letting in an invasion(Like it happened to Turia in Nomads). There is absolute carnage upon the streets, you can roleplay markets burning, the slaughter of men and women outside their homes and admist this chaos of battle you take home your prize.

Very few roleplayers understand the concept of a city being populated by hundreds of thousands of NPCs, even when only 10 avatars are online, those few who expand their perception are the ones worth roleplaying with as then you can exchange some very potent emotes.


Sasi wrote:The first raid which happened in this sim (I was a mod at that time), was only run by Laura. They entered by the gate, left by the gate, claimed that Ar was defeated. After, yes, some war had been structured. But I didn't last long in this sim after it started to welcome too many snowflakes. I finally left and went to play in another RP environment.


Exactly what were you doing as a moderator for Ar, was it a fancy title for your avatar or had you served some purpose? It doesn't seem like you were informed in the slightest.

If you were moderating the first raid, you'd recall Laura's team approached Ar on tarnback and landed atop a tower, sprinted down into the city, captured some men and rushed them back up the tower for extraction. Everything from the scouting prior to the raid and the speed of execution was as realistic as you could be in SL Gor.

Ar had declared war on Laura some weeks earlier and it was in Laura's best interest to reach a peace agreement, so captives were taken towards arranging an end to hostilities. It may be there was some battlefield banter with shouts of victory over Ar, but that's just IC roleplay, it's how men express themselves in the heat of battle. And you're totally crossing IC/OOC if you're bringing it up a year later on an OOC forum. IC there was no declartion of victory, occupation or conquest over Ar, Laura played it as a skirmish and sought a lasting peace.


I want to return to this statement, as a Mod of Ar, I think it deserves some explanation:
"They entered by the gate, left by the gate, claimed that Ar was defeated. After, yes, some war had been structured.

The 'war' had been in operation for almost a month, and there was much roleplay being done on the Laura side. So what led you to believe the roleplaying from Laura started only after the first raid?


As a side note, the Arians who declared war on Laura were the swiftest to abandon Home Stone and bail out of Gor when they lost that first raid. So much for the Political, Longterm Roleplay, ICA=ICC crowd. :shakehead2:


Sasi wrote:Also, I don't consider that involving multiple other sims is a factor of success. In SL, too many people spend a lot of time at trying to organize storylines involving many sims, instead of first, focusing on the storylines which could happen in their own sim and involve their sim members. Which most RP sims do, off-Gor....


Well you wouldn't, you've yet to meet the challenge of making roleplay happen on your own sims.

If you provided examples of the times you've achieved Political Roleplaying success, I would believe you were on to something. But so far as I'm aware, the sims you've been involved with amounted to nothing. Weren't you the Admin in a former incarnation of Ar, who reacted to a storyline turning against you by godmodding the death of her character. That's the real benefit of being an Admin, why bother following the raid rules or sims's activities, so long as you get to control your personal character's fate.

Have you ever roleplayed on a Gorean sim where you weren't an admin or moderator, where you weren't roleplaying exclusively among your OOC friends?


On another side-note, 'most sims off-Gor' concentrate on intra-city storylines from an absense of compatible sims to engage with. Sci-Fi and Fantasy sims are set in unique worlds. GoT sims are in different eras and really, ROIAF had its swollen head too far up its ass to do anything other than masturbate alone. Now Urban players do cross storylines between cities, though they don't exactly go to war with one another as that doesn't happen in modern America.

These venues aren't enhanced by internal roleplay, it's the only option they have, and if you believe these sims aren't affected by all the drama and issues of Gorean sims, then your understanding of SL Roleplay is becoming less and less relevent.
Tantus
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:55 am
SL Name: Inactive
Caste: Scribe

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:25 pm

Sasi wrote:I was only talking about the BTB sims. I raided for one season in a GE sim, that was raids, raids and raids against other sims. Fun for a time, after, I got tired. People RPed randomly, privately, else, they hanged up OOCly, laughing, joking, etc. I remember, around Christmas, some of us raided in pajama suit (unicorn, goat, frog themed...). I don't remember even one GE sim, at this time, which had these standards you cited.


GE took a tumble after 2008 and never recovered. I could mentions the groups and sims where roleplay was found, but I'll link a list of names someone had once uploaded to SL, of some GE roleplayers from that era. I could easily double this list because there really were that many competent, paragraph-roleplayers in GE at the time.

► Show Spoiler



About Illyros, if your stated intention was building a sim solely to test a stringent application process, then it succeeded. So far as I know, no actual progress was made on the roleplay front. People just didn't leave their cosy houses or make an effort to roleplay with others, so it may have been open for 2 months, but 90% of the duration was as an inactive sim.

I'd suggest your next 'Elite Application-Only' sim should maybe like... recruit people who roleplay too.
Having people who roleplayed in ROIAF is really not an indication of any standard, they're one of SL's most toxic communities.


Sasi wrote:As for women in group chat, well, they probably whine less, but is the lovey dovey family RP a thing of the past? No, as you know. And a woman cannot play alone that mundane crap. So, there is still a bunch of men enjoying this kind of RP. And don't let me start about those men who look in SL Gor for a sub....... Tantus, men are not better than women, in SL Gor... Both may equally suck, whatever their role.

And yes, I agree, a raid is fun. But I prefer when it's done realistically. I remember, in one of the Ar sims, an outpost setting had been built in a skybox. The attackers had too conquish it. Some FW, companions, daughters of warriors or just bold women, came to the outpost. They were the loot.


I haven't claimed women are any worse, infact, I've routinely stated that Gor softened because of the men. My friends on Earth RP sims tell me it's most often men expecting an OOC relationship just moments after meeting. In Gor, I think it's the women, and men will exploit them because the week-long companionship is a simpler route to RP than capturing her.


How is a skybox/outpost any more realistic than raiding an actual city. I recall an Ar back in 2012(or so) who used a skybox for raids, but they lost one. The sim owner raged and called an early end to the war. The issue isn't with the locations you raid, its with these people who beat their "ICA=ICC" drums but really have no control over themselves.

So far as I know, the sims who've tested raid-platforms or alternate combat mechanics in Gor, all ended prematurely due to OOC dramatics.

I'll take an old school GM raid any day over Internet women theorycrafting. Since you all are too naive to account for the Human Emotion Factor, even your perfect "Real Roleplayers" suffer from it.

Sasi wrote:There was a game in one of the Ar sims, with a giant map, where the legatus moved the legions. They had fun apparently and used it for their RP. Yes, definitely, that war was only a background on which we based all our political intrigues. But still, it was fun (at the begining, until some people start metagaming and godmoding...).

And no, I had not such a sim. I co-owned a sim for 5/6 months, where one of our talented RPers (Theoden) had organized an incredible setting for a very well structured war, figuring the progression of the armies. Every Saturday, a big battle was organized, anyone was free to join and fight for a camp (it involved 4 sims). Metered combat. But well, at the end, some people caused problems. You have always SL Gor teens who don't like to lose or systematically break the rules, causing OOC conflicts.


People will always be drama, will always hate to lose, will always cross IC/OOC. I know you have this hope for a higher standard of roleplayer, but it isn't there. These "Real Roleplay" sims crash and burn with as much drama as their Lifestyle counterparts.

And I've seen the pitch that comes with every incarnation of Ar, or "Real Roleplay" sims. The boardgames, the political RP, the raids fought on platforms. I've not been personally part of them since the "Real Roleplayer" sims make me cringe with their naivety, but it doesn't surprise me when their well crafted and heavily regulated combat systems go to shit. Their planning wasn't the issue, it's their belief that a higher standard of roleplayer exists that comes back to bite them.

Everyone is drama. When you understand this, you factor in contingencies for all emotional eventualities. The first guy you believed was a responsible ICA=ICC, IC/OOC, W/E type, who spits shit on your game won't surprise you since you were ready for it.

But these "Real Roleplay" sims are always caught with their pants down, they don't understand how their carefully vetted and long-form application approved roleplayers turned out to be such bitches. It's disheartening and kills their will to roleplay further.
Tantus
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:55 am
SL Name: Inactive
Caste: Scribe

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:46 pm

Qingwen wrote:
Tantus wrote:
The next roleplaying I intend to do will be in Chronicles of Elyria, humanoid races, a PvP world, contested territories and trade routes all make for a potent setting. I have $200 on this game so it had better deliver.


Looks ideal for GoT fans. I read your character ages and dies in that game. I wonder do we get a temp random power boost for virtual menopause? :D



The game is including all sorts of mechanics, they possibly will have a moonblood stat too! :shock:

Each server will have a unique map(US, EU, AUS) which their communities are voting on this month. The maps show Kingdoms(Player-Monarchs paid $10,000 per title), divided into Dutchies, divided into Counties(the dark, thin borders). Within those counties will be player constructed towns, villages, farmsteads run by Mayors, who report up to Counts, to Dukes, to Monarchs.

Definitely much scope for GoT style politics and betrayals 8-)
User avatar
Leah
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:14 pm
SL Name: Liara Edring
Role: Rebel
Owner: My Internet Connection
AkA: Lailah, Lia, Liara
Location: Somewhere in Eorzea
Contact:

Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Leah » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:21 pm

Sasi has not, to my knowledge, ever been the Admin of any incarnation of Ar.
This isn't fucking Survivor. We aren't a tribe.

If I won't put up with an in-character owner trying to control my OOC life, what makes you think I'll put up with you trying to do that?

My Store: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/165499

Return to “General RP Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests