Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:55 pm

Tantus wrote:You're a better person than I since you credit the standard SL Gor community with being roleplayers. I don't. I'm not that generous. The blend of Lifestyle, noobery, romancing and everything wrong with SL Gor happened from the beginning of BTB. Before then you could still find immersive roleplaying in GE.


Yeah sure. I can understand that view. The only remark I'd add to that then tho is that as a consequence, in my opinion, in SL Gor you can't avoid the 'others / non-RPers' because that is by default how SL Gor is setup. People can visit and start RPing on each other's sims without much of anything required, which is also what people do... As a role player and as an admin you'll constantly have 'encounters' with people that frankly make it hard to continue carrying a story that makes sense.

The majority of SL Gor are community sims, the same as you'll find across the grid in MC, civil war, urban and historic themed venues. Even GoT community sims exist, but I've never referenced them as the example of GoT roleplayers. Unless I was trolling a forum, why would I?


Sure, I get that too and yup, sure you're right about there being some lifestyler sims out there too. The biggest difference though, the actual RP sims don't have to deal with those lifestylers or community players, because they'd not be able to even get to the IC floor without getting booted or told to have an application vetted and approved.

Out of actual Roleplaying sims, fantasy, sci-fi, survival, urban, GoT and even Gor, they all experience largely the same issues. Granted, you won't have random lifestyle guys wandering in, demanding slave exams. But you will host a large proportion of players who's sole motivation is to find their IC soulmate, in any genre. No one confesses to seeking online companionship so they call it Longterm Storyline RP.


I don't disagree with that.

That is perhaps one of the issues you'll keep finding in any RP genre. There are many others:
- Cliques & OOC coordinating RP (up to the point it almost becomes meta gaming or making the RP of non-clique members pointless
- People avoiding negative consequences
- Drama when one side starts to realize they're on the losing end of a conflict

I'd almost describe those as issues which are somewhat 'hidden'. They're not issues which you'll instantly stumble upon or over when you start a few RP scenes in a place.

Gor however suffers from those as well AND then a whole bunch of other issues, maybe because there is a constant passing through of 'non-RPers' or 'community players' through Gor RP sims.
Issues which are very obvious and 'in your face' when you come across them:
- power emoting
- thought emoting
- post order shenanigans

For me personally... it causes me to instantly lose any desire or enjoyment from RP when I come across them. It's why I find it very difficult to RP in SL Gor whenever I tried again (a long while ago).

There are very few sims where the players took charge and by their own volition evolved the sim's lore, by their actions, drove the sim's story. Very few sims. And this is where I feel every setting should begin, by providing players with the background, tools and encouragement to carry a theme forwards. It shouldn't have to resort to a handful of admins writing the weekly events whilst the bulk of players float around online relationships.


Yeah sure. I understand that criticism quite well, but on the other hand... It's like hoping you'll get a pack of unicorns together. The people that actually push and create RP for others is a small minority, they're great for a RP sim and making everyone feel engaged and motivated to RP, but those kind of people are very rare.

If I was in SL and someone says:
This sim's players are evolving the story without admin involvement : "That's interesting, I'll take a look."


Yeah, of course that would be interesting... because it requires the stars to align and all these amazing RPers to suddenly hang out together. I would argue that in some cases people probably found that community of people whom they feel is scratching that itch for them the best they can possibly find a RP community.

One of my own personal 'complaints' whenever I'm RPing in any genre always is:
"Why isn't anyone else making anything happen or doing anything?"

But I do pose the question: Why does it matter if I'm pushing a storyline or new ideas in RP whether I'm just a player or an admin? Maybe it depends on the sim rules setup, but I don't really see the difference, even less when nobody actually (for certain) knows you're an admin or not.

Having the admins push a new story or setup or 'world situation' just seems like an incentive to me to make sure that:
A) At least the admins are doing the effort to make things happen and change things up (with it giving players opportunities to react or grow their characters)
B) the players are encouraged to do the same when they see others doing it too


But on to the future, with the advent of Animesh finally making NPC involvement possible, some genres will evolve to incorporate PvE elements too. Something I've always felt the scene was missing. Since the trouble with PvP and conflict roleplaying is, 5% of the players win, 95% lose.

In PvE, everyone can be a winner and work it into their character's roleplaying. And I think it would be fun to do a PvE raid with a small group of people roleplaying our way through it.


I actually pushed PvE encounters quite a bit in ROIAF.

Making people go fight a group of NPC bandits or the likes, rolling for the loot or other RP relevant items they might find. etc... so, no. I don't disagree there, those events were in my own eyes some of the most exciting experiences one could have, especially if there is the potential for deaths or having to choose between several 'lesser evils'.

Which is actually another issue I noticed in SL Gor, a lot of sims don't allow the use of NPCs. I use them a lot to push sensible storylines... but I suppose 'community players' or 'lifestylers' just can't wrap their head around the notion of NPCs, and even less the idea that NPCs might be a combat threat or such. *shrugs*
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Sasi
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:58 pm

Tantus, you don't stop repeating yourself with the same arguments, whatever the precisions and explanations I provide to correct your statements about places where you never RPed. You keep calling "lifestyle" or "GE" all place with which some sims, like Kaelus, interacted.

But I'm curious... You know, this trade alliance you settled, in Tarnwald... What were the involved sims...?
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Manon Seid
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Manon Seid » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:27 pm

Forgive me, I don't have the energy to read through the entire conversation here. I need a tl;dr badly here! - i'll just go YES PLEASE to the animesh npc upgrade.
A Demon Sin - Thanks for the gift Judas
Tantus
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:51 am

Hi Manon, will you be making animesh yourself? Being that SL's content is sexually driven, high quality animesh will probably take the form of NPC escorts, pole dancers and victims rezzed on BDSM props. Before reaching the PG markets.


I guess the TLDR is, whether 'advanced' roleplaying sims with an exclusive membership accomplish more during their lifestime, than regular sims.


Sasi wrote:Tantus, you don't stop repeating yourself with the same arguments, whatever the precisions and explanations I provide to correct your statements about places where you never RPed. You keep calling "lifestyle" or "GE" all place with which some sims, like Kaelus, interacted.

But I'm curious... You know, this trade alliance you settled, in Tarnwald... What were the involved sims...?


These aren't arguments, I state the irrefutable facts.

All I've asked you is, which of these sims have accomplished anything. The only revelation here is how differently we define a sim's success, I don't value a sim's traffic, application process, lore and such superficial details. I want to know whether these players reached their potential and navigated their sim to a worthwhile conclusion.

You base a sim's worth with the values it opened with. I look at the end. The sims you perceived as successful, I felt they flopped. It's why we don't agree and that's fine.

If you can find anyone who'll claim Maelstrom wasn't a GE group, or that Ivar's wasn't a Lifestyle sim, send them my way :)
The only GE group to flop harder in BTB was Boatgaard. As I recall it, Boatgaard fell into a category lower than GE when they built a fort with a 1:1 ratio, fishbowl and a tunnel network with kooldoors enabled. If you don't raid you won't understand how ridiculous this is. I can only explain it as each of those features increasing your Noob Factor. No other GE group had ever reached a Noob Factor of five, but Boatgaard. It's why they sit lower than Maelstrom in my estimation.

About Tarnwald, our trade alliance targeted around 20 cities and brought most of them into the fold. Many of whom were Lifestyle sims too. However, it wasn't an obstacle for myself and too, I've never been on forums claiming to have rolepayed at the highest standards with 'advanced' roleplayer. I roleplayed with anyone regardless of ability, grammar, translator, dyslexia, my only requirement was they should be a fun character.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:02 am

Anarch Allegiere wrote:One of my own personal 'complaints' whenever I'm RPing in any genre always is:
"Why isn't anyone else making anything happen or doing anything?"

But I do pose the question: Why does it matter if I'm pushing a storyline or new ideas in RP whether I'm just a player or an admin? Maybe it depends on the sim rules setup, but I don't really see the difference, even less when nobody actually (for certain) knows you're an admin or not.

Having the admins push a new story or setup or 'world situation' just seems like an incentive to me to make sure that:
A) At least the admins are doing the effort to make things happen and change things up (with it giving players opportunities to react or grow their characters)
B) the players are encouraged to do the same when they see others doing it too



I actually pushed PvE encounters quite a bit in ROIAF.

Making people go fight a group of NPC bandits or the likes, rolling for the loot or other RP relevant items they might find. etc... so, no. I don't disagree there, those events were in my own eyes some of the most exciting experiences one could have, especially if there is the potential for deaths or having to choose between several 'lesser evils'.

Which is actually another issue I noticed in SL Gor, a lot of sims don't allow the use of NPCs. I use them a lot to push sensible storylines... but I suppose 'community players' or 'lifestylers' just can't wrap their head around the notion of NPCs, and even less the idea that NPCs might be a combat threat or such. *shrugs*


When you analyse the history of film, they will call you a critic. When you analyse roleplaying sims, they will call you a weirdo!

I found roleplaying was more entertaining than watching routine Hollywood flicks and TV. Why sit and view another's take on old fables, which most stories take inspiration from, when you can create your own. At times you feel compelled to write and let your imagination flow and that's the height of Rolepaying for me. I like to write. With the right partner it's a healthier pursuit than film for the immoral depths you can reach, far beyond anything sensible in RL.

When a scene has reached extremes, there were many who wouldn't continue and I took their departure as a positive result. These are the casualties on the path to finding those few who'll go the distance with you. Just to be clear, I don't roleplay gruesome or domestically violent scenes, it's all psychological. And it's nice when a person tells you they weren't comfortable and wanted to leave, but they're glad they stayed... because it was an experience.

And that's where I felt roleplaying was most powerful, when it's unlike anything you've ever encountered in RL, when your character is having to question everything they know. When they feel so isolated and desperate, only bad decisions remain to them.

How do you bring so personal an experience to the masses? You don't. But you can steer people away from the perceived benefits of character backgrounds, traits and all of that superficial dressing people wear in profiles. They should be encouraged to create scenes which upset their partners, it may end friendships and that's okay. Those people weren't on a Roleplaying sim for the right reasons. Roleplaying shouldn't be your standard Hollywood script suitable for a young audience, it should be everything you wouldn't watch on TV, anything you wouldn't do in RL. It should be something making you sit back and think, "What the actual fuck just happened." Like a book or a story which holds your thoughts for days later, is where roleplaying should be.

Every character should experience these harrowing questions they never wanted to face. But this is their moment. It's happening now. And your only options are to TP out or entertain awful choices.

The point is, we all roleplay for different reasons. I just feel some communities lost sight of why they roleplay at all. Then they became a Hollywood repetition. But millions of fans love drab sequels and these new Star Wars movies so repetitions aren't all bad, there's a huge audience for it. But anyone telling me the last Star Wars was the best ever movie because it had a huge budget, amazing CGI, an international cast, LGBT friendly characters, merchandise tie-ins which major cereal brands and everyone tweeted it rocked the socks off them!

I'd ask, but what about the actual movie? Maybe I am just odd like that.
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Sasi
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:28 pm

Tantus wrote:
These aren't arguments, I state the irrefutable facts.

All I've asked you is, which of these sims have accomplished anything. The only revelation here is how differently we define a sim's success, I don't value a sim's traffic, application process, lore and such superficial details. I want to know whether these players reached their potential and navigated their sim to a worthwhile conclusion.

You base a sim's worth with the values it opened with. I look at the end. The sims you perceived as successful, I felt they flopped. It's why we don't agree and that's fine.

If you can find anyone who'll claim Maelstrom wasn't a GE group, or that Ivar's wasn't a Lifestyle sim, send them my way :)
The only GE group to flop harder in BTB was Boatgaard. As I recall it, Boatgaard fell into a category lower than GE when they built a fort with a 1:1 ratio, fishbowl and a tunnel network with kooldoors enabled. If you don't raid you won't understand how ridiculous this is. I can only explain it as each of those features increasing your Noob Factor. No other GE group had ever reached a Noob Factor of five, but Boatgaard. It's why they sit lower than Maelstrom in my estimation.

About Tarnwald, our trade alliance targeted around 20 cities and brought most of them into the fold. Many of whom were Lifestyle sims too. However, it wasn't an obstacle for myself and too, I've never been on forums claiming to have rolepayed at the highest standards with 'advanced' roleplayer. I roleplayed with anyone regardless of ability, grammar, translator, dyslexia, my only requirement was they should be a fun character.



No Tantus, you deformed my comments many times, you assumed facts which never existed and you continue to do it.

Kaelus didn't RP with Maelstrom. No story occured with them. Maelstrom was ally of Hochburg for the battles. They were merely like NPCs. They came to support Hochburg in the battles, they had warriors, and that was all. Just guys able to fight for fun weekly battles in a built skybox.

The sims where I got my best RPs accomplished what your trade alliance has never done: They offered the opportunity of good RP to their members and good stories with no old Gor crap but with respect of the RP etiquette. Not the old fucking old school Gor crap RP with lifestylers who can only RP the mundane and can't even open with an interesting lore that is not the usual boring mundane crap "A ubar happily lived with his beloved ubara in a welcoming city of Gor, with their citizens who were family and slaves who served with passion and fire".

The only real wide sim storyline that Tarnwald got, was the one written by Anarch which ended with the death of the rebel.
With your trade alliance, in fact, you just did what Yuroki, super snowflake of Gor had already done with his own Southern trade alliance. He and some others who didn't like him and tried to make their own trade alliance. Seriously, the trade alliance RP is the biggest mundane boring crap that almost all Gor sims try to build.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:23 am

A very simple question was asked, which of these 'advanced roleplaying' sims managed a shift in power away from admin controlled factions. Do these players step up and control the sim's narrative to their benefit?

Although you repeat having 'corrected' me with some elusive details, the fact is, you haven't provided a single example of player participation in the political sphere of events. Your only example was the occasion in Tarnwald where I can remind you, the rebel leader was also Anarch's alt. Anarch makes an impressive effort in the places he's joined and this storyline was one of those projects.

When your nemesis is your alt, it works in the context of building an environment and guiding a player base. But is it actual political and conflict RP, where the stakes are stacked against your character?

It's why I've also said, roleplaying is best done when you aren't with friends. When your IC allies and rivals are all OOC strangers it's an immersive experience closer to reality. Uncertainty, challenge, surprises.. are the elements we want from our roleplaying, right? Or do you want to sit within a fixed narrative, knowing how the story will end and just play through the motions.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:02 pm

In the sims where I have been part of the admin team, either admin or co-owner, yes, the players got the control of the sim's narrative. It was the goal. In the Ar of Cali, you know perfectly it didn't happen since the sim owner powergamed and micromanaged all the RP.

The example of Anarch shows what an experienced player can do with an alt, without never going into alt-crossing and metagaming. In fact, it was a feat that few players in SL Gor can achieve. And he entertained a whole sim with this story, offering people to engage with one of the parties and take risks. Because see, Tantus, hostile factions are what bring a real interesting RP within a sim. You don't need to go to bring your own RP to other sims for some mundane alliance.

Roleplaying is best done when you don't cross IC and OOC. I got extremely intensive stories with people who were my OOC friends. It's one of my OOC friends, in Kaelus, who branded my FW on the cheek bone with the slave mark of the treators. It's an OOC friend, in Tarnwald, who stabbed my FW's hand onto a table. Nothing was pre-arranged.

There is an advantage at playing with people who are your OOC friends when you are an experienced player (I don't pretend I'm the best, but I'm experienced enough to be creative, in respecting the genre where I RP as well as the RP etiquette): they know they can harm your character without having to fear a drama. OOC strangers tend to take fewer risks.

But also, it's what happen when you play with people who don't cross IC and OOC. OOC friendships are ignored when you confront your characters. And the experience is immersive and emotionally intensive as well.

Plus, how not RP with friends? Even when you don't know them when you start RP, your RP partners tend to become your friends after a few weeks.... Not to mention the chat groups where players chat together, learn to know each other. OOC strangers, really?

Anyway, it's not because your friends can't bring you this kind of experience that it applies to everyone.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:19 pm

Of all the advanced roleplaying sims you've been involved in, the only occasion you've witnessed player involvement was when Anarch ran a story in Tarnwald, reportedly an Old Gor/Lifestyle sim.

It's proving what I've said all along, 'advanced roleplaying' sims are usually just a romance fest.

The rest is a personal preference, you have your ways of enjoying roleplay and others fill their individual tastes. There is no single path. It's only unusual when you become judgemental and criticise the style and sims of other roleplayers, implying yours is the better way.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:22 am

Tantus wrote:Of all the advanced roleplaying sims you've been involved in, the only occasion you've witnessed player involvement was when Anarch ran a story in Tarnwald, reportedly an Old Gor/Lifestyle sim.

It's proving what I've said all along, 'advanced roleplaying' sims are usually just a romance fest.

The rest is a personal preference, you have your ways of enjoying roleplay and others fill their individual tastes. There is no single path. It's only unusual when you become judgemental and criticise the style and sims of other roleplayers, implying yours is the better way.


Seriously? Are you in my head, Tantus? Where did I say I only witnessed one player involvement? Stop assuming and extrapolating, Tantus.......... I have an experience of almost 12 years in SL Gor. Anarch's involvement is not the only player's involvement I witnessed. I spoke of Tarnwald as an example of comparison between your own mundane "trade alliance" RP (already-seen-and-done-almost-everywhere) and a real story with conflicts & factions, where the players didn't have to spend their time and RP in other sims. Tarnwald, a sim where you and I played.

If you want romance, go to the old school Gor sims, with lovey dovey families, "serve with fire" kajirae, brave honorable ubar and his beloved ubara who welcome the visitors at the gates.

And about being judgmental, it's the pot calling the kettle black.... You're the one who makes judgements about places where you never played and players with whom you didn't interact.

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