Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

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Ceri the Urt
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Ceri the Urt » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:14 pm

I am not sure it is Gorean Locusts. Yes there is a set of rpers that jump homes when the next best comes out...but I think that speaks more for a lack of motivation to stay rather then the need/want to leave.

Anyone who has enough money can build a gorean sim, You can make it big and beautiful, but if there is no substance to go with the build, then all you basically have is a big beautiful sim and no potential for anything to happen in it.

So you get these rpers who come in with the hopes of something more, and they develop their own storylines but the sim is basically just a box for them to toy around with.

What I have seen is this.
1. New sim gets built, talked up, it's going to be amazing.
2. Sim opens to a ton of fanfare drawing everyone in to check it out. It looks exciting and shiny and beautiful with tons of promise of amazing storylines.
3. Sim Builders/Owners want control of what goes on however, and are reluctant to really turn the sim over to the people, but they want to promote rp so they give up a bit.
4. People start their own storylines, villains are born, power struggles happen.
5. Sim owners feeling their place in this world is threatened try to shut down the more controversial rps.
6. People get frustrated and start to filter out to the next best thing.
7. Sim closes cause everyone leaves.

What almost ALL sims do wrong, is that once the sims are made, the owners are so exhausted from just getting it up and going that they burn out when it comes to running it. They don't have any real sim wide rps besides maybe a tournament or a festival, but nothing to really get the rpers on the same page. No one has a common goal, a need to stay in the home...it's just a pretty stage to play on, but they have no true connection to it. Which makes it easy to up and leave to the next place once it opens.

Sim owners make crucial mistakes. They try and eliminate all rp that could cause strife, anything with spies, treason, an overthrowing of the leaders, villains, anything that isn't "perfect". In return they get a sim that grows stagnant. The beauty of a sim only lasts so long, if the rp dwindles because the sim leaders don't encourage it, then people get bored and move on.
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Tantus
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Tantus » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:40 am

About 20-40 online is optimal for roleplaying.
At 50+ is when anyone and everyone starts joining out of curiosity, whilst the high traffic reassures the residents they're on the right sim, it's also a beginning of the end. Those numbers aren't sustainable and when a family throws a tantrum and leaves, their friends and their friends will panic-migrate out of there too.

The sim returns to being 20-40 avatars online but now feels a depleted shell of its former self and continues to bleed traffic until the end. Those departing SimX will start landing on SimY, all of the issues they caused previously will repeat until SimY falters, then they'll jump ship to SimZ - and repeat.


Ceri the Urt wrote:I am not sure it is Gorean Locusts. Yes there is a set of rpers that jump homes when the next best comes out...but I think that speaks more for a lack of motivation to stay rather then the need/want to leave.

Anyone who has enough money can build a gorean sim, You can make it big and beautiful, but if there is no substance to go with the build, then all you basically have is a big beautiful sim and no potential for anything to happen in it.


It's an important point, how much responsibility do sim owners/admins have for leading roleplay?

I'm of the opinion they are responsible-to-a-point, after building a sim, IC/OOC leaders need to be on hand and it's a busy role which leaves you zero-hours for personal roleplay. Many sign up for IC leadership without understanding the intensity of people IM'ing you from the moment you login, to logout. Then they start bringing you their RL issues and that is no joke!

You: "That's real heavy... hold on, I have to take care of this person."
Them: "Are you RP'ing now? OMG, my pet/friend/family member is about to die and I'm crying! And you're roleplaying."

When you're going through these conversations on a weekly basis, anyone is going to step back after a couple of months. Being an IC/OOC leader somehow flags you as the sim therapist.


Civil-war and internal conflict is a double-edged sword. 'Families' who land on a sim want recognition, respect and responsibilities equal to their ego. Should a sim-owner give them responsibility will they honour their obligations to the entire population and provide ongoing RP opportunities, or continue to isolate themselves into a box -as their family is known to do- and only take care of themselves whilst hoarding the throne.

In almost all cases 'civil war' is a terrible idea, whichever way it falls the sim will lose people.
In almost all cases, those who push for 'civil war' aren't thinking of the sim's future, only what's exciting for them in the short term. And then they will be gone. In these cases sim-owners have legitimate cause to protect their investment from random lunatics.

And there's nothing ambitious in starting a civil war, it's easily done. A real RP challenge is seeding civil strife within your enemy's walls, spot the influential ones, take your time in turning their loyalties, support the people turning to you and make their war, your war. It's painful. Imagine watching hours of 'social media influencers' styling themselves for selfies and whatever else their lives are about... and how empty you would feel. That's how it is roleplaying with random people, but you need them, like advertisers need these influencers, so we court their attention with the end-goal in mind. It really takes a group effort and tons of emoting.

As they say in mafia movies, you don't shit where you eat. The same applies to BTB rolepay, unite your own city and go wreck havoc on someone else's sim.

I have to give credit to Alexander(Shinobi Barret), his organisation, planning and the objective he draws up for a conflict are on another level. IC'ly it delivers a sense of being at war with a tight-budget against impossible odds. But we distribute objectives between ourselves, become 'handlers' for agents on enemy sims, together guiding our people towards the eventual goal. It takes weeks/months to turn a population against their administration and finally install councillors who favour you. But it's possible, with warriors, merchants, ambassadors and legislators united towards a single cause. Which makes more IC sense to me, than the routine "Let's get some Discord buddies online and conquer our own sim for lols".




After 3-4 months of high traffic, you'll see the difference between RP Creators and RP consumers. The former need a break, the latter will forget all the fun and entertainment provided to them over the previous months and will happily hop off to join some new sim. RP consumers are only loyal to those actively feeding them, drop the hand for a minute and they'll be gone.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:13 am

I don't really believe in the "Gorean model". Conflict between sims only to get RP banned. I think the entire setup is the reason why there is so little RP and most of it is limited to peaceful family or Master/slave stories.

What reason do people have to RP with each other when everyone on the same sim is getting along? And the other alternative then is raiding other sims... and getting RP banned. But then there is the other problem when a little bit of IC conflict is created people just flee to another sim to avoid it. I don't really get what these 'peaceful' type RPers get from RPing at all. For some I suppose it's a substitute for having a decent RL or something, no clue.

If I wanted peacefulness I'd just lounge IRL and visit my grandma or something. That isn't what I login to SL for. SL is for all the good stuff: conflict RP, adventure, kinky abusive sex and orgies and both preferably with a slow paced longterm build up and a strong climax.
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Sasi
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Sasi » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:01 pm

Tantus wrote:
After 3-4 months of high traffic, you'll see the difference between RP Creators and RP consumers. The former need a break, the latter will forget all the fun and entertainment provided to them over the previous months and will happily hop off to join some new sim. RP consumers are only loyal to those actively feeding them, drop the hand for a minute and they'll be gone.


Exactly. It's rather exhausting for the sim admins to constantly provide the stories which motivate people and help them to build their own stories. At the end, if the sim members just wait for the next exciting plot and nothing come, instead of becoming storystellers and launch the next plot, they just leave... And they are the same people who complain, later, because all the good sims are gone...
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Oor
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Oor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:50 am

Anarch Allegiere wrote:strong climax.


Teehee.
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

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Oor
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Oor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:19 am

I don't really jive with Gor any more. I still have a lot of affection for the genre and I think it has the potential to be a really immersive and evocative venue for role play, but I also feel like I've done most of the "close-in" role play arcs that are possible in the genre, and there's just too much missing for me in terms of "bigger picture" play.

There's no congruous timeline for a start. Nobody knows when they are, and sims don't tend to try and remedy that on a sim-by-sim basis. Sim backstories tend to include info about the geographic area, climate etc. Maybe a line or three about the Ubar (who will never be usurped, killed, removed). But nothing about historical conflicts or recent political history.

Power hierarchies are generally missing, thus so is the delegation that tends to foster misunderstanding and/or conflict. I've only ever seen two types of "leaders" in Gor - the ones universally loved IC/OOC, or the ones universally hated IC/OOC. I've also never had conflict play in Gor without my character's sass being taken as an OOC insult - except one time when I happened to meet a player I knew from another genre and our slave characters (coin girls) brawled in the street over territory.

Intersim conflict can be grand, but without factions in the place you mostly play, without conflict there, everything that isn't a raid feels safe. And that's something I never want to feel in role play. Aside from that, focusing conflict entirely on intersim interactions tends to have the effect of excluding the already-undervalued female populace. Can skipping to the gates to greet your returning warriors with cookies and blowjobs be fun? Sure! But if the most danger you can feel in a day is that of potentially being admonished for kneeling wrong then it's just not that exciting.

I think concepts like Vex's new slave house venture can be fun, and remedy some of the issues that female characters come up against in terms of finding a place in RP that makes them relevant... but I also think a standalone slave house (depending what you're looking for) could get very limiting after a while if you're interested in things beyond the m/S training stuff.

Kudos to people like Tantus who manage to immerse regardless and get all these epic stories and wars out of it, but I think some effort to ground players in on-sim conflict, faction affairs, political and personal conflict and so on will do a lot more to keep people on sims than insisting that they just don't see the big picture and calling them locusts for continuing to seek out something more gripping.
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DarbyDollinger
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby DarbyDollinger » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:33 am

The last sim event I can remember going to was about ten years ago, so I'm not someone who's interested in that sort of thing. As far as I'm concerned, if you want conflict RP, you should restrict it mostly to your frenemies; people who know, like and trust you. Doing it with random people or acquaintances is an excuse for butthurt, especially in Gor, where many people can't cope with losing.
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Oor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:07 am

DarbyDollinger wrote:As far as I'm concerned, if you want conflict RP, you should restrict it mostly to your frenemies; people who know, like and trust you. Doing it with random people or acquaintances is an excuse for butthurt, especially in Gor, where many people can't cope with losing.


Yeah this.

Story without conflict is pointless to me. Conflict is what brings unpredictability, and unpredictability is the difference between collaborative writing and solo. I get that for many people the whole D/s thing is the point of RP, and sure it can be fun to play as part of your ongoing RP. But it's not an itch I'm looking to scratch in SL, so if and when that's all there is, it gets boring fast.

In any genre, conflict can go OOCly sour with unknown entities, but in Gor it's basically guaranteed. Because more often than not, when you enter into IC conflict with someone, you're not providing another branch to their story tree - you're interrupting their wank time or making them look bad in front of their OOC bf/gf. I'm interested in story, and in not being the "nice girl/guy", so Gor doesn't really work for me.
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Tamar Luminos
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Tamar Luminos » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:45 pm

Ceri the Urt wrote:I am not sure it is Gorean Locusts. Yes there is a set of rpers that jump homes when the next best comes out...but I think that speaks more for a lack of motivation to stay rather then the need/want to leave.

Anyone who has enough money can build a gorean sim, You can make it big and beautiful, but if there is no substance to go with the build, then all you basically have is a big beautiful sim and no potential for anything to happen in it.

So you get these rpers who come in with the hopes of something more, and they develop their own storylines but the sim is basically just a box for them to toy around with.

What I have seen is this.
1. New sim gets built, talked up, it's going to be amazing.
2. Sim opens to a ton of fanfare drawing everyone in to check it out. It looks exciting and shiny and beautiful with tons of promise of amazing storylines.
3. Sim Builders/Owners want control of what goes on however, and are reluctant to really turn the sim over to the people, but they want to promote rp so they give up a bit.
4. People start their own storylines, villains are born, power struggles happen.
5. Sim owners feeling their place in this world is threatened try to shut down the more controversial rps.
6. People get frustrated and start to filter out to the next best thing.
7. Sim closes cause everyone leaves.

What almost ALL sims do wrong, is that once the sims are made, the owners are so exhausted from just getting it up and going that they burn out when it comes to running it. They don't have any real sim wide rps besides maybe a tournament or a festival, but nothing to really get the rpers on the same page. No one has a common goal, a need to stay in the home...it's just a pretty stage to play on, but they have no true connection to it. Which makes it easy to up and leave to the next place once it opens.

Sim owners make crucial mistakes. They try and eliminate all rp that could cause strife, anything with spies, treason, an overthrowing of the leaders, villains, anything that isn't "perfect". In return they get a sim that grows stagnant. The beauty of a sim only lasts so long, if the rp dwindles because the sim leaders don't encourage it, then people get bored and move on.


Wow...this is a pretty excellent write up. This is pretty spot-on for what I've seen happen several times over the years. It's not -always- exactly like this, but often it's something like this. Other times, it's lack of money- Hollow's End just closed because of money and it had a pretty busy player base of the recently closed sim Convergence- which closed (for a few months, just heard it's reopening, or a new version of it anyway) because the owners were getting married and needed a break.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
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Qingwen
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Re: Gor? Where are you? Tal? Anyone home?

Postby Qingwen » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:28 am

Ceri the Urt wrote:Sim owners make crucial mistakes. They try and eliminate all rp that could cause strife, anything with spies, treason, an overthrowing of the leaders, villains, anything that isn't "perfect". In return they get a sim that grows stagnant. The beauty of a sim only lasts so long, if the rp dwindles because the sim leaders don't encourage it, then people get bored and move on.



Once (last year I think) a sim owner told me plainly she did not know how to roleplay with me unless I followed the script she had envisioned for my character. I'm not sure how this mindset shift has happened - roleplay used to be all improvisation, and we never knew if we'd win or lose that day, if all our schemes would come crashing down or we'd suddenly be in a position of power. I probably complained about the randomness at the time, but now I miss it! :lol:
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