RP Terms and Misconceptions

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Tantus
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RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Tantus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:37 am

Whilst seasoned roleplayers in SL think they have reached the pinnacle of RP etiquette, they haven't understood the definitions of common Roleplaying terms. The following is my interpretation and certainly open to debate.

IC/OOC Separation

The most misunderstood of all terms, its only usage now is in promoting bigotry, the mocking and the marginalisation of an entire RP community.

Does IC/OOC separation only apply to Lifestyle-Emoters who believe they are themselves online?
Lifestylers aren't roleplaying, they aren't roleplayers, so roleplaying etiquettes do not apply to them. Their activity online is entirely another realm of emoting. It's not for Roleplayers to vilify them and demand Lifestylers follow the same rules.

IC/OOC Separation in the context of roleplaying means, separating your OOC wants and ambitions, from your character's actual circumstance.

Person-A wants to FC Person-B because they're OOC'ly compatible and into one another. But the RP scenario favours Person-C. So does Person-A throw an OOC drama and get the partner they want, or go with the IC arrangement and roleplay out a mundane union.

I could fill a thread with scenarios of people OOC'ly manoeuvring and manipulating the opportunities available to their character, for keeping their IC progression aligned with their OOC interests. This is where IC/OOC Separation applies. And there are swathes of roleplayers frequently crossing this boundary but they won't see it, from believing IC/OOC only applies to kooky Lifestylers.

When you only roleplay with a select group of friends, it's an IC/OOC offence.

The last IC/OOC offence I witnessed was a funny one. This girl, who's probably a good roleplayer and has owned RP sims in the past, turned up on this freshly opened RP sim. So her first question in GC was, 'Who are the IC leaders on the sim'. One of the people roleplaying within a small crowd was named, so she heads directly to him, plants herself into that scene and over a few emotes, chases everyone off until that IC leader was controlled by her.

Given that she was a triple-paragraph roleplayer, from SL's society of good roleplaying. Could she say she didn't metagame her way in, but her entourage of NPCs enabled her introduction to a prominent character. And there is my personal issue with NPC employment. Even I use NPCs to fill in a background, they are ghosts without any tangible effect upon the roleplay, at the most they will serve food or carry messages. But modern NPC use has evolved to the level of enabling metagaming and even godmodding, when you're protected by an army, or spawn a dozen NPC guards to help you manage a situation. This, again, is forcing your OOC preference upon the IC direction of a scene, or just making your IC life easier by spawning NPCs to skip out on having to roleplay your way through.

Men are entirely guilty too when there's a female sim owner, she will be swarmed with Casanovas and every other stray IM'ing her with "Ohai sim owner, I'm your new best friend." All of these people will believe themselves the epitome of an excellent roleplayer, complete with a detailed back story, character flaws, strengths and all of those self-congratulating accolades these people carry around in their profiles.

The need, the greed, the hunger people have to feel important behind their keyboards absolutely affects the direction of sims, when they attach themselves to sim leaders and make themselves that person's priority. And when IC Leaders allow themselves to be smothered by groupies and don't have it in them to say 'Bitch, back the fuck up', then this group they were responsible for and consequently the sim are going down.

It all comes about from people parenting their characters and not allowing them to just drift with the roleplay. There will always be some control over your character's situation and placing them where you want them to be. Whether that's in a relationship, a rank or confined to a particular clique, it's a failure of IC/OOC separation.


Conflict RP

The second most misunderstood term in SLRP. My perspective on Conflict RP isn't what you do onto others, it's what you can endure when your character is on the bottom. That's the only gauge of how well you handle Conflict RP.

For anyone who says they like Conflict RP, they're only thinking of being on top, taking captives, committing atrocities, making other people's roleplay difficult. And these sorts of people will never accept the same being done onto them.

So the very mention of Conflict RP just makes me frown, because those who say it are often the worst at handling it. Very few people will roleplay through a dire situation, and the people on top will call the losing group the weaker roleplayers. But it's not the whole truth, because when the group on top comes into hard time, they will prove to be sore losers too.

The only individuals you can count on are those who've been through torture and legitimately roleplayed out their deaths. Then they can say they like Conflict RP. But the vast majority of others using this term will throw an OOC fit on breaking a fingernail.

Other ways of spotting cowardly Conflict RP, are male characters who randomly kill slaves. And those who challenge clearly inferior fighters to the death.
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Sasi
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Sasi » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:18 pm

When I chat with friends who RP in other environments and have experience with Gor, they always point out the lack of IC/OCC separation in SL Gor.

Second, we should not give a fuck about lifestylers. As soon as they set a foot in a sim that is labeled ROLE PLAY, they should follow the RP etiquette and separate themselves from their character. They should accept that people won't care about their real feelings, won't give a fuck neither to their lifestyle and will not accept that their lifestyle interfere with their role play nor will accept these so called real Goreans call a slave player "girl" or a slave player address those who play a free with master/mistress.

Else, they are welcome to stay in labeled "lifestyle" sims. But in role play sim, RP etiquette and IC/OOC separation applies and take priority.

But most people in SL Gor pretend they are not lifestylers and still, are just unable to separate IC and OOC, taking personal offense for actions directed against their character and consider that players should be treated OOCly like their character.

Also, players who try to influence the IC scenario with OOC means do metagaming (influencing the RP with OOC knowledge and means). If they use a powerful character for the story follow their way,they do powergaming (happened to me and my RP partners by a sim owner, once, who had created a character who basically, made him even more powerful than the local IC ubar...).

A role play is a game. In a game, you tend to play with your friends and people with whom you have connections. I don't cross the IC / OOC boundaries because I will play with X, whose RP I love, and who is an OOC friend.
But I will cross the IC / OOC boundaries if my OOC friendship with X interferes with the story in making me refuse to alter my character's relationship with X when I should logically, for the story sake, give a chance to Y.
Actually, I have always followed this principle with my FW characters. I didn't accept FCs for my chars, (high caste FW) with characters owned by OOC friends when those didn't have themselves a character whose social position matched my FW's statut.

But I won't consider I mix IC and OOC if I'm no longer willing to play my character with guy whose RP won't entertain me just because he captured my char. I tend to para-rp, I won't be happy with a one liner. Too, if I love the RP in the sim that I joined and my char is capped by a guy who plays in a sim with crappy rules, I will decline the RP. As I said, it's a game, you don't have to accept all crap because it's IC....

It's perfectly normal for Rpers to play with people with whom they have affinities, whose RP you naturally enjoy. As I said, SL Gor is just a role-play game, and you don't play a game with people who bore you.

The use of NPC is very useful for a realistic background. There is nothing wrong with a character having a NPC army, when the player doesn't forget that his NPC army might have to face the NPC armies of another character... In RP sims where they are familiar with the use of NPC (so, not Gor), there are rules which fix the use of NPCs. It's not a big deal. Also, wanna defeat the NPC guards of this FW? Roll the dice with the NPC's owner, if they roll in your favor, get rid ICly of the NPC. But don't forget that if you are a baker, it's unlikely that you should be able to defeat an armed guard with your French baguette...

In sims that I administrated /co-owned, we had fixed a limit to the number of NPCs you could use, following your character's station. But people should understand that if you play a local potter, no, you cannot slap, in the street, that arrogant and disdainful high caste and high status FW who will treat your char with pettiness, without your char suffer consequences... Most people in SL Gor have just no understanding of hierarchy, positions and status. They bitch if the ubar doesn't hang out in the streets like your average fellow but only receive important people in his palace.
They don't understand neither that they should always assume that an important person, of high status, has guards that will fall on their head like the misery on the poor world, if they spite in their boss' face.

Most people in SL Gor are UNABLE to play their character in a plausible and realistic context. How many times in a Gorean big city environment, do you have people who introduce themselves in telling "I am THE baker of X..." "I am THE tavern master of this city", "I am the slaver...." Really, dude? In a city that has dozens of thousands of citizens, you own the only bakery/tavern/slave house / whatever....?"

NPC are an amazing RP tool when properly used and should never be used in powergaming. But too many people in SL Gor are definitive RP noobs who never evolve, never learn and can't use them, can't create a realistic environment for their RP scenes neither.

As for conflict RP, I won't gainsay what you said. People mostly want to win, when losing can be so fun and intense. People in SL Gor play in a lore where anyone can be casually enslaved, but they refuse this outcome. I'm seriously puzzled when I see limits such as "no forced collar, no brand, no slavery" in the limits of people who play a free character. Seriously, why do you play in SL Gor if you cannot deal with that possibility?
Anyway, in SL Gor, people are not much interested by IC conflicts, political plots. They want to play the lovey dovey family RP.
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Tamar Luminos
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Tamar Luminos » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:21 pm

Hey, look a new post! :D

For anyone who says they like Conflict RP, they're only thinking of being on top, taking captives, committing atrocities, making other people's roleplay difficult. And these sorts of people will never accept the same being done onto them.


I'm someone who likes Conflict RP, and I'd have to say no to everything else in this quote. So that skews the whole "everyone" thing there...I'm one of those freaks who actually loves playing a victim, or losing, or when something bad/twisted/fucked up happens to my characters. I have so much more fun with that shit, drama, angst, kinky sex, character development. Yeah, bring on that Conflict RP, I don't mind letting someone else win and be the badass long as I get some fun out of it too.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Leah » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:58 pm

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This isn't fucking Survivor. We aren't a tribe.

If I won't put up with an in-character owner trying to control my OOC life, what makes you think I'll put up with you trying to do that?

My Store: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/165499
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby DarbyDollinger » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:44 am

A lot of people in SL Gor probably aren't even sure if they're role playing or lifestylin'. They may never have thought about the difference. In a way, D/s is just a sort of role play anyway.
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Tantus » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:36 am

You're right about that Tamar, I was thinking along the lines of male roleplayers who're more likely to promote it and less capable of roleplaying it. Women are definitely better at enduring IC conflict, they aren't trying to be macho and can better immerse themselves into a challenging scenario.

The Gorean setting lends itself well to Conflict RP, a quiet place with just a captor and a captive. But somewhere along the way Capture-Roleplay became dirty words in SL Gor, it was replaced by Storyline RP, which is just another way of saying Live-Happily-Ever-After-Romance-RP.


Sasi wrote:When I chat with friends who RP in other environments and have experience with Gor, they always point out the lack of IC/OCC separation in SL Gor.


I've had these encounters too and when I ask where they've roleplayed in Gor, some haven't ever been but they're happy to vilify Gorean Roleplayers. Some have roleplayed in Gor and they'll describe something I can only surmise to be some obscure Lifestyle sim. The opinions of those who've never committed to Gorean roleplay but still want to criticise it, are irrelevant.

Back when I was involved in Gor, I was probably banned from more sims for my roleplay than anyone, so I know how lame Gor can be, but I'd also say Gor has produced some of SL's finest roleplayers. When I roleplay on Earth or Fantasy sims, I find people are very limited, they have a set way of performing or understanding roleplay and its like you're speaking a different language. In contrast, when you roleplay with someone in Gor, they just flow with the scene.

That's when people on Earth sims will engage with my avatar at all, people actively discriminate when they see Gor in your profile. I've had male roleplayers verbally attacking my character from just assuming him to be a misogynist, the moment I walk into a bar. Roleplaying with female characters has a reduced chance too as many won't roleplay with 'Goreans'. These are the types of people who say Gorean Roleplayers cannot separate IC from OOC.

At one time I would remove Gorean tabs from my profile when visiting Urban sims. But then I stopped, as I figured they were helping to filter out the chaff from those worth engaging with.


About Lifestylers, I don't much care for the practice. I once warned people that Lifestylers were taking over BTB, people didn't heed my doomsday warnings, and now BTB has become a byword for a Lifestyle Gorean sim. It was like a virus that began to spread, nothing can be done for it now but to cut away the healthy tissue, and quarantine all BTB sims. But I don't appreciate people saying that these hybrid Lifestyle/BTB communities define Gorean Roleplayers.

Sasi wrote:Most people in SL Gor are UNABLE to play their character in a plausible and realistic context. How many times in a Gorean big city environment, do you have people who introduce themselves in telling "I am THE baker of X..." "I am THE tavern master of this city", "I am the slaver...." Really, dude? In a city that has dozens of thousands of citizens, you own the only bakery/tavern/slave house / whatever....?"


This is an effect of what I think of as the SL Persona. A regular Roleplayer is their RL Self and the character they're portraying. Then some people have become so invested in SL, they form a second identity. They roleplay as their SL Persona and the character they're portraying.

Their imagination is limited to what their SL Persona perceives, a 'city' is quiet when only three people are online. It has only one bakery, only one blacksmith in the city who's been away for weeks, which has endangered the Red Caste which consists of four warriors. And it takes them precisely one minute to cross the world, have breakfast on another continent, then return in time for lunch.

It's a particular sort of person who leans towards the Lifestyle spectrum and not someone I'd consider representative of an actual Gorean Roleplayer. I've seen people with an SL Persona outside of Gor too, they live in the world they see on screen.


The point of this thread isn't to bait or troll anyone, but to explain 'Gorean Roleplayers' have always been a separate group from Lifestylers(who aren't roleplayers). Gor brought some of SL's most capable roleplayers together, and maybe that was all in the past, and even I don't see a prosperous future for SL Gor. But a distinction should always be made between a Gorean Roleplayer and the BTB/Lifestyle community.



P.S. About NPCs being used properly, I've endured the unfortunate experience of having roleplay spammed my way, with paragraphs of details on someone's NPC family members, their traits, habits, quirks and everything that makes for deliriously dull reading. I'll admit to being a narcissistic roleplayer, unless an emote is about my character or relating to his interests, he's going to end that discussion and move people along. NPCs and their deployment is largely a nuisance for fluffing up emotes and unnecessarily extending the length of posts.
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:58 am

I can on some level agree about the IC/OOC separation part.

OOC manipulation of RP is always an issue. It especially happens when people are OOC friends, they'll often have a tendency to -also- in RP help each other with everything even if the history or reasons behind it don't make any sense. In a 'Game of Thrones' setting this becomes especially apparent when Houses who have ancient feuds suddenly become each other's best friends because someone's bestie joined the other house. This is something that I imagine is a lot harder to encounter or notice on SL Gor sims, because sims tend to be these mostly homogeneous groups of friends already anyhow. Personally it's a pet peeve, in my opinion people should either:
A) Play as within the same faction / family if they know they're OOC friends and will never go against each other
or
B) even better, and it can be loads of fun and the base for drama-free role play, if they know they're close OOC friends play as each other's IC enemies for a change instead.
There is a risk here too though, using your OOC friends as your IC enemies can sometimes lead to discovering that your taste of RP isn't exactly the same and that they might be prone to do some things which makes your eyes roll.


NPC usage for me is purely about realism and political storylines.
I'd say that my main annoyances with lack of NPC usage is why I've a hard time taking SL Gor sims seriously as RP settings. Two or three or four guys shouldn't be able to "attack" an entire city or 'capture' the Ubar or other high ranking members of that society, because realistically they'd all have their own armies of guards. I roll my eyes when I'm in a tavern and the tavern girls there complaining nobody has visited for weeks. Just role play that the place is full with NPC patrons and guys getting drunk and orgies and what not in your role play.

This isn't a way for me to try and create a 'happy-ever-after' RP environment, on the contrary, I despise tea parties. To me the existence of NPCs that force a realistic setting, are so there can be role play and storylines and great battles between armies of NPCs, but also so NPCs can be used to harm, assassinate and foil others from time to time. NPC baddies are a great way to get at some of those entrenched large OOC cliques. Of course such all needs fair rules to keep everything in order, but it can lead to great role play and storylines that otherwise is often overlooked: The wrong people getting accused and arrested as being behind it, investigations that can span weeks (instead of getting solved near instantly because everyone cammed and metagames knowing 'who did it').

People know that I mostly only RP in ROIAF nowadays, but isn't it realistic that two guys can't just barge into the throne room and take the Iron Throne, what about the thousand guards in the Red Keep? Why would it be any different in Gor for Ubars and Magistrates or the head of a House etc? The lack of acknowledgment of NPCs and letting everything be decided in raids and meter combat causes a giant swath of storylines becoming unplayable in the setting, or lose their importance. Does that mean I want people to be untouchable? Hell no. I just prefer it all to be part of realistic storylines instead of Ned Stark TPing back home and resurrecting after he had his head chopped off and Rob Stark TPing to King's Landing with his army of 4 dudes to conquer the city and capture all the Lannisters. There are entire books of storylines that could be role played out instead as slow and longterm conflict if people stuck to realism.

That said, it's obviously entirely possible that some people abuse certain tools and aspects in RP, such as NPCs. People will always find ways to abuse something. The main goal is though that people should hold -themselves- responsible, despite the tribalism mentality that is persistent in SL Gor - RP really is about OOC cooperation and fair play, even with those who you have as IC enemies.


Conflict RP

I'm all for it. I've role played out my own deaths and enslavement a great number of times. It's tricky though, it requires a lot of goodwill from both sides, once again referring back to how RP is an OOC cooperation. I have sinned against that in the past myself by raging against certain outcomes of RP, but for me RP is at least a learning experience and rage and disappointment are emotions that play part with even the most experienced RPers. The trick is to learn self-control and not to let crazy affect your role play. It can be -especially- tough in SL Gor where these OOC relationships exist in a very sexual environment - I think it brings men on edge twice as fast, because they're afraid of feeling 'cucked' or whatever, but honestly it's fucking pixels and some dude raping my slave-girls just means I''ll rape some of his or others in due time. :p

People have this tendency of only wanting happy-family-RP in other genres too though, it's not unique to SL Gor. It's just ten times as grating in SL Gor because all the source material, all the canon lore on Gor involves massive battles, murder, torture and the glorification of raping and enslaving women. The Gor of the books also follows a moral code and culture which is OPPOSITE of the happy family and honorable white knight RP you'll find most of the time in SL Gor. But 90% of the role play community being cookie cutter lawfully just and 'good' characters who do fuck all but sit on their asses isn't unique to Gor. That said... I often find RP communities a lot more 'experienced' and enjoyable outside SL Gor. There is near 0% chance that I can drop on an SL Gor sim and won't instantly get bombarded with a lack of RP etiquette or considerations which I've grown used to in other settings. It's hard to say this without sounding like a pompous arse, but it's my personal experience. SL Gor is -very- infected with bad RP habits and people who keep reinforcing each other in their bad RP habits.
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Sasi
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Sasi » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:32 pm

I agree with Anarch's comments, especially regarding the use of NPC. And sorry, Tantus, if Gor produced the finest RPers of SL, how would you explain that the use of NPC is so frowned everywhere in SL Gor?

Also, it's only in Gor that I felt like a second class SL citizen because I play a slave girl... It's only in SL-Gor that people IMed me, calling me girl, slave, or even slut... It's only in -labeled- Gor RP sims have discriminative rules following the role you play.

If too many Gor players had not this habit to express their "gorean attitude" outside of their Gorean RP sim, their reputation would be better. Most of my friends who left Gor and play in other environments, or those who tried SL Gor after being familiar with other RP environments, pointed out to me the IC/OOC mixing and the many breaches to the RP etiquette. This reputation of Gor players have been deserved, sorry... When you see a Gor slave player who keeps her Gor etiquette in a fantasy sim (saw that 2 weeks ago), yes, no wonder why some fantasy sims add a warning to Gorean RPers in their rules...

Actually, I'm no longer capable of roleplaying in Gor... Having read the 34 books didn't help, for sure, my tolerance for snowflakes became extremely low. But it speaks volumes about the player base of a BTB popular sim when these kinds of FW can hanging out quietly in a city without never being ICly annoyed, collared (or told by an admin to adjust their outfit):
Image
Image

But a slave player dares to RP "you cannot punish me, you're not my master!" and people OOCly freak out about the princess without even considering she is just rping an ignorant slave (there is a similar scene in the books...).

There is only in SL Gor that I have been called a princess and ejected from a sim, because I asked a slaver to stop godmoding me and mixing IC and OOC... And don't argue, please, that it happened in some lifestyle sims... No, I assure you, it's really a common thing everywhere...

Maybe should you try to RP a slave girl for 2 or 3 months, Tantus...
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Adlai » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:04 pm

Tantus wrote:The point of this thread isn't to bait or troll anyone, but to explain 'Gorean Roleplayers' have always been a separate group from Lifestylers(who aren't roleplayers). Gor brought some of SL's most capable roleplayers together, and maybe that was all in the past, and even I don't see a prosperous future for SL Gor. But a distinction should always be made between a Gorean Roleplayer and the BTB/Lifestyle community.


You've articilated a point that I've been thinking about for awhile but couldn't get the words sorted in my head. :)

BTB used to be the nomeclature used to identify non-GE sims, but has been a term that's been redefined through the years to the point where "By the Book" really means just about anything accurately portrayed or not that is book-based. NOW it seems, that BTB is synonymous with "role play," and not something that describes what kind of roleplay you may be getting yourself into.

I see an advertisement for a BTB sim, and all that means to me really is that they're not advertising themselves as lifestylers.... but may actually be lifestylers within the SL context, short of giving out their RL phone number or Facebook info. A player might identify themselves as BTB, and that doesn't actually tell me much in terms of authentically portraying an environment. They will refer to their character's free companion as "My FC" in IMs. They use "Gorean" vocabulary, but in a very Earthlike context, i.e. "sipping my blackwine at the end of a hand" or having been head of caste across 10 cities, and have lived in "all the regions" no big deal.

There is no "authenticity police" for the genre, because really, who wants to see traffic dip under 12k? Or create a new character for the SAME avatar to pop into a city as "foreigner," or try and RP as a local and be questioned in General Chat saying "but you're not in our group, we're going to collar you for lying." :fryingpan:

I'm with you, the future looks bleak. I've moved on to another genre.
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Sasi
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Re: RP Terms and Misconceptions

Postby Sasi » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:53 pm

Adlai wrote:
I see an advertisement for a BTB sim, and all that means to me really is that they're not advertising themselves as lifestylers.... but may actually be lifestylers within the SL context, short of giving out their RL phone number or Facebook info. A player might identify themselves as BTB, and that doesn't actually tell me much in terms of authentically portraying an environment. They will refer to their character's free companion as "My FC" in IMs. They use "Gorean" vocabulary, but in a very Earthlike context, i.e. "sipping my blackwine at the end of a hand" or having been head of caste across 10 cities, and have lived in "all the regions" no big deal.


Yes, in the Gorean RP community, you don't look for a RP sim where you will play your character. You look for a -home- where you can build your -family-... You don't introduce your character, you introduce yourself, as a warrior, a FW, a slave... You're Lady Something, you're this girl, this ubar/warrior/scribe/physician...

Not to mention that at the end, yes, they don't even understand the basics of the Gorean culture, with their 10 previous home stones and the castes they only identify as a job that they can change when they grow bored...

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