IC Paperwork

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On IC communications being "physically" (virtually?) created:

Anything that is not a direct, face-to-face scene is bad.
1
8%
Some OOC time spent creating IC communications/papers is fine, but doesn't enhance RP.
0
No votes
Some OOC time spent creating IC communications/papers is fine, and enhances RP, but should not be compulsory for everyone.
10
83%
IC communications/papers are vital to role play, and unless a contract or letter is written out on a notecard, it does not exits.
1
8%
Other (explained below)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 12
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Oor
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IC Paperwork

Postby Oor » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:08 am

So SL Gor seems pretty split by this topic. You have some people who think slave papers etc in note card form are vital and some who think they are an evil infringement on OOC time.

Personally, from my experience in other genres, I think that IC communications that have been created in notecards or sent by IM etc. can be role play enhancing. SMS messages and emails in urban settings, letters, wedding invitations, dowry offers, etc. in Game of Thrones - I've seen all of them used to good effect in RP, and in ways that can make an otherwise unmanageable amount of people to interact with more manageable.

On the other hand, being obliged to write out endless slave papers and companionship contracts is some other, special kind of hell. A dowry offer is an interesting, unique document that can offer RP hooks depending how generous (or not) it is, what sort of alliances and enmities will be affected, etc. A companionship contract is usually... just that, same as the last, and so are slave papers.

So in Gor, I kinda wish people did more of the "sending an NPC slave to deliver a letter that will add to RP" type thing and less writing pointless documents that will never see the light of day again type thing.

How 'bout you guys?
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FeorieFrimon
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby FeorieFrimon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:32 pm

I kind of like having an actual object, even if it is a notecard, for letters and contracts. It makes it easy to reference what was exactly in there later.

But, that's just me.
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serene mistwood
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby serene mistwood » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:40 pm

Oor wrote:
Personally, from my experience in other genres, I think that IC communications that have been created in notecards or sent by IM etc. can be role play enhancing.


I agree with this. Serene, as a Musician, traveled with her troupe and caste members (NPC's) often and an IC notecard letter of introduction to the Ubar/Ubara or whoever was the aim of the nefarious plot was often used to instigate RP. One of the best examples below. I am sure Dove won't mind me posting :lol: This simple notecard was to provoke some very memorable and fun RP in a sim I otherwise would probably never have visitied.

The 9th day of the month of September, in year of the Priest Kings, 2010.

Unto the Ubar Jake and Most Magnificent Lovely Ubara Felicia

From Lady Dove

It's been some time since I've been able to visit, I hope all your people and the land of Soaring Herlt flourish. I find myself with a bit of longing for the fresh chocolate cherries you once gifted to me, and wonder if there is a possiblity of again getting those in my possession, for a short period of time, well long enough for me to devour them fast So I send this almost whining plea to find out how to obtain another box of them, with one musician. Her name is Serene, she's a thief, steals and lies, but her tunes are fantastic and ballads are wickedy so, and since she is able to travel freely from one land to another I give her this letter to carry. Please gift her some coins, she is greedy in that manner, and enjoys the rich life

I have no little personal news to give, other then my life is much the same, I now reside in Ka`Zahr a city that suits me rather well, within the Voltari Mountains, oh yes, and while we're disussing such matters, can you have a few tarnsmen bring me a few wild eggs from the mountains surrounding you? I always need more fresh new blood within my breeding program.

I hope you enjoy prosperity and richness within your lands with my deepest respect and regard

Lady Adoveea Rau

Dictated to the Lady Regan McCallen, Scribe of the City of Ka'Zahr.
"She still had all of her marbles, though every one of them was a bit odd and rolled asymmetrically." Firebirds Rising.
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Glaucon
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby Glaucon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:57 pm

I agree that stuff like this can be a plus. As long as it is fun. Obliging players to produce loads and loads of texts or accounts for the sake of realism would be silly. But does that really happen (ICly)?
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:04 pm

Glaucon wrote:I agree that stuff like this can be a plus. As long as it is fun. Obliging players to produce loads and loads of texts or accounts for the sake of realism would be silly. But does that really happen (ICly)?


It does. It's one of the more ridiculous aspects of BtB Gor, some part of the playerbase feel like they need to be kept busy with chores like these (slave exams, scribe documents and files, certificates etc), often going as far as claiming that RP isn't RP if the Free are 'lazy' and don't 'do their duty'.

It happens even with Warriors: "Uh, our Warriors are lazy, they should rotate standing guard at the city-gates."
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serene mistwood
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby serene mistwood » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:12 pm

I think some folk and hence their characters genuinely do enjoy that kind of stuff. It shouldn't be compulsory though for those of us that don't. Spend a couple of hours on a slave exam or FTB it. It should be an individuals preference.
"She still had all of her marbles, though every one of them was a bit odd and rolled asymmetrically." Firebirds Rising.
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Sasi
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby Sasi » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:28 am

I have no issue with a letter or a paper using to communicate some information or particular message, but what I don't accept to fill and use, are notes like this:

► Show Spoiler


And this kind of imposed RP (With notes to fill):

► Show Spoiler


And this other crap:

► Show Spoiler


Countless sims still using these craps forms, requiring slave exams, slave papers (when in the books, many slave owners don't have papers), manumission papers, citizen registration, etc etc etc.

In some sims, FM/FW characters are required to fill an application, they must give some infos about their experience, their background, etc. But the sim owner and sim admins are not interested by experience and background of those who play a slave. No, to join these sims if you play a slave, just, fill the "slave paper" form.

I don't see how it enhance RP. It's just a waste of time. Not to mention that the slave exams are repetitive scenes playing following a particular process. Don't try if you are the slave player to make it interesting, unusual, etc. The lame physician player will follow the process. Rigorously, with zero creativity.
Tantus
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby Tantus » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:05 pm

Why is it, whenever there's talk of NCs it always comes back to slave papers and slave exams!

I would support doing away with them both and issuing NCs only for more important uses. And before anyone jumps up and says "wow! you really do hate slaves!". I don't. I'm just practical.

Alternatively, slaves should be given a template to fill in, then a physician can stamp it and a scribe can file it. Simple.


A city should have templates for most uses, and you can fill in a name, a date, seal it and it's done! In less time than it takes for someone to emote. I don't understand why it's seen like a lengthy chore when you can literally fill a document between emotes, if it's taking any longer then the city needs to review their process.


When is IC paperwork fun?

Fun is subjective here. There are people I enjoy roleplaying with who absolutely despise IC paperwork. They will tell me "No. NO! We don't need another form." But in the end they see the light!

And I know people who roleplay amazingly well, but they are terrible at creating IC documents. And there are some mediocre roleplayers who issue very professional looking papers. Making something reasonably official is part of the fun of roleplaying. Laurilana Infinity(Kaissa of Sais) does both, she's an excellent roleplayer and her papers are always nicely done with all the right terminology.


City Roleplay.

One of the more detailed roleplays I've been through was in a city with an actual budget. For this case, we used the system of 3 RL months = 1 Gorean year. The budget was calculated on the revenues gained through taxation and pillaging. Then we subtracted the costs of city maintenance, hiring guards, etc. And finally gave each caste a budget to work from.

This is where it became interesting for each caste's head, they became responsible for their budgets and considered it during recruitment, promotions and extensions. At the end of the year(3 months) we all had to hand in our expenditures for our castes.

It's not all mindless, petty, book keeping simulator. It definitely added to roleplay from Caste to Caste. At the bottom level, one of our people was being harassed and needed a guard. I stretched our budget to hire 1 NPC guard for the year. This is an NPC entity I was comfortable with, because he came from the caste's budget, it was roleplayed and he's on the books. At the mid-level every person in the caste is aware of their salary and how they're affecting the overall budget.

These are both important factors. How many "Followed by 5 NPC Guards" types do you think have roleplayed acquiring their guards and feel any responsibility for their cost? Secondly, having fixed annual salaries gives roleplayers an appreciation for the local currency. Otherwise you end up with a skewed economy where people are tipping bakers with 2 gold tarns like it's loose change.

At the top level, there were some caste heads protesting at their meagre budgets. I had to reduce the office space for our scribes, just to reflect the fact we were surviving through times of austerity. And you can additionally roleplay your treasury is thinning out, it gives you reasons to raid or otherwise acquire funds before your administration is declared bankrupt! You can raise taxes, increase the fee for trade licenses, etc.

This is just one example of treasury RP, based on modest amounts of paperwork, which opens a whole lot of roleplay for a whole lot of people. People who otherwise wouldn't meet, now have legitimate reasons for networking. It encouraged the inter-caste roleplay which all sims want, and even inspired occasions for inter-city interaction.

The cost is, a handful of people to make it happen with additional effort from them all. But I'll say all of the roleplay I was involved in was all enjoyable and strictly IC.
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Qingwen
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby Qingwen » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:41 pm

Tantus wrote:This is just one example of treasury RP, based on modest amounts of paperwork, which opens a whole lot of roleplay for a whole lot of people. People who otherwise wouldn't meet, now have legitimate reasons for networking. It encouraged the inter-caste roleplay which all sims want, and even inspired occasions for inter-city interaction.

The cost is, a handful of people to make it happen with additional effort from them all. But I'll say all of the roleplay I was involved in was all enjoyable and strictly IC.


I like mini-economy play (I'm a natural loot-hoarder) and I think it does lend some realism and generate RP that otherwise wouldn't happen. It's hard to blackmail someone and extort gold when they can flip you a gold tarn out of their pocket change without suffering any sense of loss.

G&S system used to have a currency aspect (haven't use it in a while but I assume it still does) but unfortunately G&S got a bad rap for becoming mindless grind with all the little things that needed daily tending. But in the early days, it did generate a lot of RP. I don't really want to milk virtual verr anymore but I do miss the coin system. I played on another sim where you could bid on slaves using game currency (not lindens, just play money), which you earned by a daily wage in whatever your profession was. You could also pickpocket other players. Though you risked being caught and sold as a slave if you failed. Not always epic RP but still fun.


And by all means tear up slave papers.. I remember one that asked me "what I hoped to achieve by my slavery?" :eh:
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Sasi
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Re: IC Paperwork

Postby Sasi » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:42 am

Tantus wrote:Why is it, whenever there's talk of NCs it always comes back to slave papers and slave exams!


Because they are the NCs you see everywhere. I have yet to see a sim where some day, there is not some scribe who suddenly sends a notice for slave owners register their slave, get her examined then transfer the forms and attestions to the right official. Yourself, Tantus, I remember, required it in Tarnwald.
Else, it's required from any new citizen in a city, or even for slaves, as I said, as a susbtitue of application form (OOC discrimination)

Tantus wrote:I would support doing away with them both and issuing NCs only for more important uses. And before anyone jumps up and says "wow! you really do hate slaves!". I don't. I'm just practical.


I will not gainsay you on this. Slave and exams papers are a waste of time and an annoyance.

Tantus wrote:Alternatively, slaves should be given a template to fill in, then a physician can stamp it and a scribe can file it. Simple.


Alternatively, slaves should not be required to fill any NC, template or not. These NCs are useless.

Tantus wrote:A city should have templates for most uses, and you can fill in a name, a date, seal it and it's done! In less time than it takes for someone to emote. I don't understand why it's seen like a lengthy chore when you can literally fill a document between emotes, if it's taking any longer then the city needs to review their process.


/me gave the man the papers of the slave he had just purchased, they were perfectly conforme.

Or, I could emote that something was wrong with the papers, that they were falsified, because in reality, the slave is a fake blond, her hair had been dyed... And no need a NC to RP this issue.
Because yes, it's a lengthy chore, to fill a huge NC, with every detail about the slave... It's annoying. Between emotes, sorry, I prefer to read my emails, chat in IMs, be on facebook, shop on the marketplace or type a post on the Gorums...

Else, in the example you gave, for this city economic play, I see nothing wrong.

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