Slave player/character hating

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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:26 pm

BlueConover wrote:
Anarch Allegiere wrote:Well, people who separate IC and OOC -are better- role players. Those who don't are so much worse up to the point I'd simply not allow them to set foot on a RP sim.

Just like people who don't godmod, metagame, etc. are better role players than those who do.



Where is this idea coming from that we suddenly should treat all misbehavior as equal and acceptable? There is such a thing as self-destructive tolerance.


I know some rpers who do and are extremely difficult to rp with throwing their dummy out their pram the moment you go outside the box.

Others cant role play worth a damn because they can't role play the environment BUT have this utter belief they are so fucking awesome rainbows shoot out their ass and they piss sparkles.

I'm saying No. Better roleplayers are those who ARE BETTER AT ROLEPLAYING.

End of story.


It's pretty hard to be a good role player when you can't understand what might be happening to your character or to those around you is all just part of ... a story. It's usually those who don't separate IC and OOC who are the ones throwing their toys out of the pram, because they get upset someone they care about or they themselves got raped, murdered, abused... and then they start rudely or upset IMing the person who did those things to them as if they were still IC: "Murderer, rapist, you're not gorean, bla bla"

And again, those who think they're amazing and perfect in every way, in my experience, are also the ones who do not separate IC and OOC, because when something bad happens to them, they suddenly also throw their toys out of the pram, because their OOC notion they're awesome got threatened.

Understanding that it's all just a fantasy story and make belief, and that the goal is writing exciting and fun storylines together comes with the understanding that IC and OOC are separate. It's the people who can't wrap their heads around it all 'just being a story', who are the ones that make any and all role play impossible.

And I've no clue how someone would even be able to cooperate writing a storyline when they think they're OOC superior compared to slave-girl role players.

On one end you're complaining and seem vexed that some people are elitist and think themselves superior, but on the other end of your mouth you seem to be quite alright with 'Free Men' role players being elitist and lifting their noses towards 'slave girl' role players OOC.

Role play dies because people don't separate IC and OOC. And yes, as far as I'm concerned I'll always consider those who try to see through storylines, role play, who respect ICA = ICC and have the patience to cooperate with each other as being more worthwhile and more enjoyable role players.
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Glaucon
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Glaucon » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:09 pm

Manon Seid wrote:
Glaucon:

"Anarch Allegiere wrote:
And we didn't even touch upon the part yet where every gorean sim is claiming to be a BtB Role Play sim,..."

I've yet to meet any sim or role player that can clearly state they are By the books
everyone is IBTB
Inspired by the books


I think the key word in Anarchs post there was "Roleplay" sim.

I said a lot in this thread, but I am pretty sure I didn't say that bit. :shifty:
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Manon Seid
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Manon Seid » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:59 pm

o.0

OMG - Sorry Glaucon - those were Blues words!

Heh ...uhm that was just to bait you..really...yes thats it - so when are we going to rp?

:oops:
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Glaucon
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Glaucon » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:38 pm

First, I'll hit you with a parafluffy gorums post! :wave:

Manon Seid wrote:I can join the choir of people who has experienced the less ideal encounters with people doing the IC without consent in my IM often. At times it's more the general rule than an exception. The occasional opening IM greetings of "Tal panther" or "Slut!" I can live with but the overarching approach by people who does this kind of greeting to me in OOC is not ok.

I understand that. Of course, it is annoying. It is not as if people playing outside of SL Gor don't get it. Women getting unwelcome, inappropriate or rude comments from random strangers (usually guys) is pretty much a feature of SL (and RL), but yes... I am aware that there is a group of players (masters, slaves) in SL Gor and also in other D/s type sims (that do call themselves RP sims) that are used to talk to people like they ARE the role they play. It is not how I like to do things (though, as stated, is less of an issue for me when someone addresses me as such as I don't get addressed as a slave. I could pretend that someone addressing me as 'Master' hurts my feelings, because, technically, it is the same sort of thing, but it just doesn't).

Of course, such things are common in a lot of sims. And they may still be doing RP, there. So, they are perfectly entitled to call themselves RPers and their sims RP sims. And I would not presume to tell them how to play. But, yes... if they advertise themselves like that, I think they should at least be aware that a lot of RP-ers don't want this sort of 'Mixology' as Ghost called it.

In the 'good old days', you had people getting angry in RP when a slave didn't spell master with a capital 'M'. I think we can all agree that something like that doesn't make any sense from an RP-perspective. And I think it would be hard for players that are more RP-focused to play with those for whom this is not obvious for a longer amount of time.

Manon Seid wrote:Sasi's example with the free woman/slave player convo is damn familiar. So is Qingwen's example with the slave player convo. So is Oors examples with the the MasterDude1 and SlavePlayer1 exchange. It's not one off situations, this happens ALL THE TIME. In my humble experience anyway and clearly I am not the only one experiencing that kind of approach based on...well not even just the role played, at times its based on gender appearance in SL, sometimes even just a name. I have a laid back approach to these people and I usually don't even react to people treating me like that, I guess I got used to being called SLUT! ... but really...REALLY it's not ok.

As I think you just said, it isn't restricted to SL Gor, this sort of thing. In SL, there are lots of guys sending IM's like "Suck my d ick, filthy c unt." Doesn't happen to me (well, except on this forum :thumbup: ). It is something many guys do in RL when they can get away with it. And in SL, you can get away with it. So, they send unsolicited pictures of their genitals, order female avatar players to sit on their (pose)balls, etc. Some sims clearly cater to/encourage this sort of thing, but outside of those, it is certainly rude. Not okay. You might argue that SL Gor sims are the type to cater to/encourage this stuff, and so it might be said to be okay, but if a sim claims to be about roleplaying and about OOC respect (as most do), then it isn't, really.

So, yes. I think that anyone playing in a sim that is supposed to be an RP-sim, primarily, should not treat others OOCly differently based on the role they play. Really, the slave-player should be awarded the same OOC respect as the Ubar-player.

Manon Seid wrote:This is not about being elitist. And I know there are people reacting to people giving that vibe here in this thread. And in general I agree, raging because of some inappropriate word in an IM is usually silly at best.

That 'vibe' was there, for sure. :o.O:

The thing that made react above, most of all, though, was the version of what IS supposed to be good RP that was smuggled/inserted into the argument against treating others differently based on their character's role: The idea that you always need to have a perfect separation of IC and OOC, that any sort of mixing is bad, because mixing is the root of all evil (it isn't, it is often a symptom, not the cause), that 'soul players' are crappy RPers because they mix on some level, that life-stylers are necessarily crappy RPers because they mix. All that. What I called a mini-ideology of RP 'purism'.

Insisting on such an ideal of 'pure-RP' isn't the same as arguing everyone should be accorded the same degree of respect, OOCly, regardless of role. The second thing should be common sense and part of the RP basics, really. It is really about respecting the autonomy of others. The first thing is based on an idealized version of what is and what isn't (good) RP. It is fine to have such an ideal (even though I think this one is flawed). But pushing it isn't really about respecting the autonomy of others any longer.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:03 pm

Glaucon wrote:So, yes. I think that anyone playing in a sim that is supposed to be an RP-sim, primarily, should not treat others OOCly differently based on the role they play. Really, the slave-player should be awarded the same OOC respect as the Ubar-player.


End of discussion then.

And this arguing over whether or not IC and OOC can be fully separated reeks a lot like pointless semantics on arguing whether or not 0.33333... repeating times 3 equals 1 or 0.99999... repeating. Nobody 'fully' separates IC and OOC, or none of us would enjoy watching movies or reading books either, but there is a big difference between treating slave-players like children and dumb sluts or getting a bit emotional because of a storyline.

IC and OOC separation should happen to the point that:
- All players are respected equally despite their role or what character decisions they made
- It doesn't interrupt the storyline or role play of others (or yourself)
Last edited by Anarch Allegiere on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lacey
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Lacey » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:17 pm

I honestly have no problems with people who have relationships with other consenting adults. I am not a part of that relationship though. The example of someone with a real life collar, though I am not a part of that so no, she cannot call me Mistress. All of these examples people keep doing with IMs here is another:

Subbie69 Resident: Tal Mistress
Me: Please don't call me that in OOC, I am just a role player. Thanks.
Subbie69 Resident: F you! This is me and my avatar is me! I am a slave in RL for 15 years! I'll do what I want! You don't know Gor!

:fleeflee:

It is like I said, it goes two ways. There is two sides to this coin. There was one time I was going to play a slave character and this chick was going to own it. I read the rules of the sim. They looked great. There was no indication that I would not have a good role play time there. It even stated equals OOC. There was nothing in there about note carded chores nor in the kennel note card. I was thinking "great." Then I met the sim owner a week later. Apparently, no slave shall call him his name ever OOC or not. Second life was an extension of his real life lifestyle. Everyone just respected him and I should too or I am not a true slave or welcome to the sim. According to everyone here, he is an asshat right? You all agree that is rude. I left his sim and found something else to do.

But I am just an elitist if I do not agree that the other side is not rude? Expecting me to be okay with being called Mistress OOC?

Just because someone who calls me Mistress in IMs might not act like the last five who did, doesn't mean I want them calling me Mistress in my IMs. I am married in real life. I have no interest in anything beyond storytelling, anything else is adultery. I stay on sims that have rules that reflect this. Sometimes you don't even have to be on a sim to get these IMs. I become a part of a group to find role play family? "Tal Mistress." If I go shopping? "Tal Mistress." The Gor hub? "Tal Mistress." It doesn't matter if these people are the most sweetest people in the world calling me Mistress, I don't want to be called Mistress. It is not that hard to understand. This is not my way or anyone's ways. This is basic stuff. You learn when you are a kid not to play in someone's hair or to get in their personal space without asking permission first. I never said "get out of gor roleplay sims." I more or less said, "if you want to assume consent, go somewhere where the assumption is warranted." It is rude to assume consent (and criminal in real life).

It is just as rude to call me mistress as it is to call me slave in OOC. Some other things that are rude is to have a mix of IC and OOC on a sim with an owner who is trying to have a sim that separates, totally changing the entire culture that was meant to be created there or was created there. Someone comes in as one of those types that always do the IC everywhere. They stop their avatar at every kilt and dress to say "tal Master/Mistress." They turn in their noted chores. Then suddenly everyone is expecting all people playing slaves to do this and everything is way different that what was intended. Plus, the owner is just a bitch when she tries to put a clamp on it, to regain control. It is rude. Shame on these people. They do not follow the rules.

Do not preach tolerance with me. People who insist their way must be the way, are the intolerant ones. There are tons of owners of beautiful sims that would welcome people who want that type of culture, yet they come in droves ruining something that was supposed to not be that. You do not like my 'paragraphs' or my 'intolerance of your lifestyle?' Then do not come to my sim. Do not come into my IM box. I am not hard to get along with.

There is only one way to be, that is with consent. Someone says, "sure you can call me that." Then great, you go for that. If they do not though, you need to not be a huge stink about it. This is not an argument about whether or not something is BTB or should or should not be role played out. It is not about how many words one should or should not use when role playing. This entire thing is about not wanting to be called a name and somehow, I think I am better than everyone else because I don't want to be called something. Sure there are tons of different ways to play, but you must have that consent to play that way before doing so. I accept other ways of playing, I just don't particularly want to be involved. Ask someone else instead.
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Manon Seid
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Manon Seid » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:44 pm

Very well Glaucon. I shall reply in machine gun short form:

I agree!
Lets play!

And apart from that:

What Blue said in his post 02 Jan 2017, 15:41.
Sounded pretty sane to me too.
I agree, generalizing swiftly based on a few things we see as key features to box people in stereotypes is bad bad bad in my book. Judging someones potential skill in roleplaying based on whether they are wearing flexi hair or not comes to mind.

It happens though when you have seen the same thing happen over and over again and the inability to separate OOC and IC often shows right with that first sentence, with that tiny little almost benign "Tal slave/Master/Mistress/slut/panther/killer/sleen/..." in the OOC IM. It might be wrong judgement in some cases but it's definitely human if people end up avoiding engaging in roleplay then.
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Glaucon
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Glaucon » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:56 pm

@ Lacey: I just can't get very upset about being called 'Master' or 'Sir' (people in RL call me sir, sometimes, even. I must be old). Yeah, I get how it really doesn't make much sense, how it might be considered imposing or rude and how it is the 'other side' of a slave player being called a 'slut' and all, but... sorry, just too easy to shrug off, for me.

Anarch Allegiere wrote:
Glaucon wrote:So, yes. I think that anyone playing in a sim that is supposed to be an RP-sim, primarily, should not treat others OOCly differently based on the role they play. Really, the slave-player should be awarded the same OOC respect as the Ubar-player.


End of discussion then.

And this arguing over whether or not IC and OOC can be fully separated reeks a lot like pointless semantics on arguing whether or not 0.33333... repeating times 3 equals 1 or 0.99999... repeating. Nobody 'fully' separates IC and OOC, or none of us would enjoy watching movies or reading books either, but there is a big difference between treating slave-players like children and dumb sluts or getting a bit emotional because of a storyline.

Not sure if the other debate is really just semantics, but fair enough. Agree to agree (for once). :thumbup:

Anarch Allegiere wrote:IC and OOC separation should happen to the point that:
- All players are respected equally despite their role or what character decisions they made
- It doesn't interrupt the storyline or role play of others (or yourself)

Yeah, to the second one. And kinda yeah to the first one too. Except...

... I know that one is a bit of a pipe-dream. Even among very RP-focused players. People DO judge. They 'judge' the character, the avi, the RP skills, all that. And while I think they are often too judgmental, I suppose they are entitled to judge. And you can't even stop them from sharing their judgements either, gossipping in IMs, etc.. With judging (negatively) comes disrespect. It is human nature and it happens everywhere. So, all we can ask for is for people not to disrespect others publicly over these things.

Small qualification. Agreed overall, still. Sorry. :)

@ Manon: Oh. Looks like I will have to go clothes shopping for my moth-balled Glaucon avi, after all. I better ask Tantus for advice, prompto. (and agreed with what you said, as well).
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby serene mistwood » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:15 pm

What a weird and eristic thread this was. I think everybody here agrees that IC/OOC separation is the RP ideal on a RP sim and not a bad ideal to strive for.

The problem we have peculiar to SL Gor is that many folk are there to dabble and RP a Gorean/BDSM type lifestyle online.

Their interpretation of RP isn't the same as ours and perhaps the classical one. They aren't wannabe RL Gorean lifestylers, so avoid sims titled as such as they don't want a RL experience - but in their own way they are still RP'ing a Gorean slave/Master etc. , so hence, they still see it as RP too.

It all gets super confusing. So many people with different goals and reasons for being in SL Gor with varying knowledge of both the genre and of what gaming RP is and each with their own agendas.

I certainly don't feel any animosity towards these folk. For me SL Gor has always been a game of trial and error in so far as when, where and with whom I decide to RP to fit in with my own reasons for being here whilst enjoying what is essentially an occasional hobby if I have some spare time. I'll put them up there with the excessive rambling and garrulous breed of *PARA-RP only!* folk in the stakes of irritation. To be avoided but usually harmless.

Personally, I don't care for any kind of OOC in my IM's unless I've invited it. I don't feel people using titles in IM's are pathetic, weird morons though - just seeking a different Gor experience than me. All OOC "Tal Kajira" salutations will be met with a polite "My IM's are OOC and I'm here to RP only thank you!" I don't believe thats actively encouraging the mix of IC/OOC - just making it clear I'm personally not compatible for their own particular version of Gor RP. We are all entitled to that - and in my experience, like usually finds like.. eventually.
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby DarbyDollinger » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:53 pm

In a sense the argument is not about IMs at all. It's about a creeping zealotry that people like Glaucon, Blue and I have noticed, and it's not even just restricted to the issue of OOC/IC. In the past I've been about to post about the creep but I but let it slide because I couldn't be bothered about getting into an argument.

One thing that's interesting about Glaucon, Blue and I is that we've been here since the beginning. Glaucon with his super secret but quite well known account, me as my original assassin av, and Blue as Blue. Back in the day a poster called Sita wrote a semi-jokey post about the different stages a RPer goes through.

The first stage is innocent, completely ignorant joy. You know very little about canon and rules and care even less. Then you discover them and become less innocent and more serious. Eventually the rules and canon become Very Serious Business. The final stage is that you relax again and stop taking everything so seriously.

It's probably not a coincidence that while Glaucon, Blue and I were posting on the gorums and playing in Ur BTB and early BTB, most of the 'but it's the rules!!!' types on here were playing in GE or weren't in Gor at all. Most of them will probably mellow out, not just on this issue, but on roleplay in general. They'll stop being 'jaded' by things that aren't really that important and learn to have a sense of humour about it all. So ultimately this thread is probably apropos of nothing.

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