Slave player/character hating

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Sasi
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Slave player/character hating

Postby Sasi » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:19 pm

So, Tantus' ranting against slave players reminded me of a woman (her char is a FW) who recently visited the sim where I play. Her name sounded familiar, I took a look at her profile and two pick kept my attention. One where she ranted about these pussies in BTB Gor who preferred a slave girl over the honor of the companionship with a FW, and this other pick:

Think you're precious? Think you're a love slave? Think you're irreplaceable?....Think Again. And read this.

"In the eyes of Gorean law you are an animal. You have no name in your own right. You may be collared and leashed. You may be bought and sold, whipped, treated as the master pleases, disposed of as he sees fit. You have no rights whatsoever. Legally you have no more status than a tarsk or vulo. Legally, literally, you are an animal.'

--pg 316, #13 Explorers of Gor

THIS MEAN :

This is Gor. Your Master is not your boyfriend. In here, you're just another piece of property to be passed among his friends. That is, if he's any kind of man at all. Which, most in Gor are pussies who don't want to offend their property. Well, to all you princesses slave with love...GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF SLUT! btw a song for you beast enjoy!


It was not the first time I see this quote and the hatred that pierces through these words puzzles me every time.

First, there is this IC/OOC mixing. Is this pick speaks of the strict IC relationship between the FM character and the slave character? Or does it points also toward the OOC relationship between both? It's not very clear.

But for sure, it denies totally the possibility of an IC love relationship between the two.

What did go wrong in SL Gor? The books state clearly that men, do prefer slave girls over FW. They respect FW, treat them with deference, but otherwhise, their real interest goes to slave girls. And Norman is good at tossing a lot of indigest paragraphs for we understand clearly that one is an passionless, frigid and frustrated creature, while the other, despite her chains, is vital, passionate, loving hot and sensual, the true woman. That women blossom really at the feet of men, that the perfect link, the perfect relationship, happens between a man and his love slave.
Almost each book has a story where a man falls in love with a slave (after he struggled a lot against these feelings, denied the evidence, blah blah blah...). In the books, men love slaves and globally, find FW rather annoying. Worse, the author, book after book, makes clear that FW hate slaves, because finally, they are jealous of them and FW are very seldom depicted like nice persons with high and noble values.

But in SL Gor, it's quite the opposite... FW players play noble and gentle ladies who don't bitch a slave (save to tell her she is untrained because she didn't react like expected) and don't understand well the principle that the author defended and advocated in his books. In SL Gor, FM court FW, then, engage in passionate love stories with them (and it very seldom ends by what would be logical in a Gorean context, so, the woman being enslaved) and find slaves annoying... And slave girls are happy happy around the mistress (when in the books, they like figuring her being collared...)

SL Gor is a place where you can read such emote (and similar):
[22:46] (free man) nodded and pursed his lips behind his menpo, already having lost interest in the girl since learning how helpless she was.

I mean, a FM lost interest in a slave girl because she is helpless? WTF? In the books, it's what men want! Helpless slave girls!

Then, you have men like Tantus, who, in his statements about slaves players, makes clear they are just not worth of his time (unless they can be used as a tool to secure the success of his schemes).

So, you end up with countless of slave players who RP some cookies cutter, are perfectly satisfied with serving drinks in an inn to FM and FW who talk about their family affair in perfect lovey dovey tea party scenes. And those slave players who dare to expect an intensive story with the man who plays their owner, are scorned, while no one would dare to reproach FW players to have the same expectations...

In SL Gor, the average opinion toward slave players is that they are princesses who should understand that their master is not their boyfriend... But who will remind FW players that their FC is neither their husband or boyfriend?

Why is it so hard for people to depict an environment similar to the one described in the books when it comes to the relationships and interactions between FM, FW and slaves? What did go wrong?
Last edited by Sasi on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:36 pm

Just some quotes I had to throw around a while ago:

Accordingly, when the society's demands were to be met, and the more embarrassing, regrettable aspects of companionship satisfied, those having to do with matchings, lines, alliances, and such the proper free woman was to enter into carnal congress with disdain, resignation, and reluctance, or feigned disdain, resignation, and reluctance, insisting, at least, that such lamentable congress be as brief as possible, and take place in complete darkness, preferably while substantially clothed, and surely beneath coverlets.
Conspirators of Gor Book 31 Pages 90 - 91

The Gorean free woman, as I understand it, who often mates while gowned, commonly refuses to reveal her "slave belly" to her companion, because of the shame of it. What if he should become excited, tear off her gown, and put her to use with the same audacity, aggression, exhilaration, and exultation with which he might use a vulnerable, meaningless animal, say, a chain-slut or paga girl?
Swordsmen of Gor Book 29 Page 229

[40] "Our customers do not come here," said the hostess, "for attentions which they could receive at home from their free companions. They come here for the kisses of slaves, and the pleasures of slaves."
Mercenaries of Gor Book 21 Page 330

[41] They want to know them with a depth, detail and intimacy that it would be quite inappropriate to expect of, or desire from, a prideful free companion, whose autonomy and privacy is protected by her lofty status.
Mercenaries of Gor Book 21 Page 349

[42] "Men are only human. They do not, nor should they have, endless patience, particularly with the sort of animal which you will then be. It is not like having a foolish free companion, one who knows no better, who will patiently work with you for years, trying to help you become a woman."
Mercenaries of Gor Book 21 Page 176


The Perfect bondage is said to be one man and one women. The complete master and the complete slave ideal and perfect for each other's needs.
Page 442 - Slave girl of Gor

"Men respected free women; they desired, fought for, sought and relished their female slaves."
Page 150 - Tribesmen of Gor


So yeah, I personally don't get where in SL Gor this idea comes from that slave-girls are second rate characters to RP with or to involve in storylines. Most manly* gorean men would prefer the company of slave-girls over Free Women. (* quote 42 says these other kinda men are girly :P)
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Glaucon » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:59 pm

Let me throw some slave-player hate in, then.

In life, you have people doing this, and people doing that. Most contribute, in some way or another. Whether they are the schoolmasters, the visionary salesmen pitching the next big thing, the accountant, the father driving his kids to soccer, or the barista. Most of these contribute by doing what they do well, and by being 'good' boys and girls in general.

In RP, you contribute in another way than you do in RL. In RP, it is nice for stuff to happen. Drama, conflict, hilarity, and so forth. If everyone is being a productive 'good' boy or girl, in character, some stuff can happen, sure. And that can even be fine. But it typically isn't very spicy stuff, story-wise.

So, you kind of need characters NOT to be 'good'. Characters causing drama, not living up to their expected duties, getting into fights, doing stupid things, misunderstanding things... those are often MORE productive in terms of generating stories than the characters actually doing what they are supposed to do.

Of course, in an RP environment like Gor, the setting already provides some sources for conflict. Cities will not like each other much, as the default. Assassins, FW being threatened with enslavement, long-running wars, beastly creatures with Axes hidden away, dangerous animals, panther girls in the woods, merchants competing, envy between slaves, and so forth. But even so, you probably want more than these 'standard' sources to generate interesting RP.

Now, in SL, there are a lot of 'sub' players. In Gor, these typically flock to the role of slave. And often, these players want to be 'good' at the role of playing slave, ICly (and often OOCly as well) and also play a (mostly) 'good slave'. However, playing that role means that it might be hard to really contribute to RP involving the stuff mentioned above. The spicy stuff, not counting the erotic stuff, because, of course, slaves are licensed to at least 'spice' those things up... which some even do (and a surprising number do not).

Now, you get this with other roles too. The player of a warrior might want to play the very 'good' and honorable warrior. But if he does that, he often still gets to contribute to RP, because of the stuff powered by the setting itself, in a way. Even by merely standing on guard at the gate.

Not so the 'good slave player'. She isn't likely to do a whole lot to drive the RP's that can be called spicy. Of course, some slave players try to compensate for that in some way. The 'cheeky' and the 'snarky' slave player were a fad, once, as I recall. A problem can be that those ways become a bit too staple.

The fact is that some roles and characters are just more likely to generate RP for others than other roles and characters. An ubar with a short-attention span and a bad temper is likely to generate much more of that than the very humble, proper and good-natured peasant's woman, typically. And the position of a slave is the reverse of ideal, in this regard.

Of course, challenges can be overcome. And players DO overcome them. Because they are creative, try to think outside the box, and so forth.

But quite a few aren't and don't. And yet... they DO expect to be entertained by RP they are involved in.

Doesn't that make them a bunch of freeloaders?

:popcorn:
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Oor » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:36 pm

There are no more "interesting" free man or free woman players than slave players. The free man guarding a gate and doing nothing else, the free woman drinking tea and waiting for dude topass by so she can ask what a guy like him is doing in a place like that - they're the equivalent of the kneeling, quiet, "good" slave girl.

Interesting that Norman manages to centre a great deal of his narrative on how interesting these characters are.

Aaaanyway. One issue for slave players is an overwhelming dearth of free players who know how to involve them and include them in story. And when there is a power disparity IC, it really does behoove you, if you are the "powerful" part of the equation, to include the less powerful character in RP if you can. For me, it's a complete no-brainer, since I can be playing a pot girl this month, a female lawyer last month and an ubar next year, but for many in SL Gor, the idea of playing something that isn't half themselves and hasn't been around for 7 years is completely alien, so they lack the perspective to be considerate to others.

To give an example (which I may or may not have used here before - I don't recall!):

I was playing a free woman character - a lawyer - who was meeting potentially a bit too often with the man she was defending in a particular case. The man was attempting to impress her,and buy a favour from her, and in the course of their dealings turned up at the library where she was working and thrust a sack of gold and jewels and gems and treasures at her. I posted about some precious gems and coins falling free from the sack and my character bending to pick them up but missing a few that had rolled beneath tables and such. The scene carried on and concluded.

Some time later I was in chat range when a slave came in to the library to clean. So I IM'd her and let her know that her character might find some scattered gems and coins under the tables. That was all the info I gave her, but it would have been enough to set her on a trail. She role played finding them, being concerned, collecting them up in a little cloth, and headed out of the library.

Immediately outside the library the slave was stopped by a warrior. "TAL GIRL WHO OWNS YOU" - she posted about holding the little rag, answered his questions. He told her to go and serve him a paga (miiiiles away from the library FYI). When she told him she needed to go and find the head scribe to give him the gems and coins she found, he took them from her and told her he'd post a lost and found notice, patted her on the head and told her she was a good girl, and there the story thread died while she was hauled off to "enjoy" this one-lining ingrate's "role play".

Now you might say this was a one-off, but it happens all too often to slave players. She IM'd me about it and she just seemed so... sad. She'd been so stoked to be included in some RP that wasn't "clean a thing" or "jump a dick", and then it was snuffed out by one incompetent freeman player who imagined she'd fall over herself OOC just for a moment of his attention. She could have gone to the head scribe anyway, told him about the gems and stones and set in motion a series of events that would probably have eventually led to my character being tried (with her having to testify under torture or whatever)...or at least sacked - but the guy seemed like the type who'd take it personally if he was accused of stealing coins and gems he didn't take any notice of anyway because who the fuck logs in for story. So I don't blame her for not doing.

But my point is - sure, yes, absolutely, there is an IC power disparity that could easily, if you allowed it, make slave players 100% boring. Many players of free people do their absolute utmost to make this the case, by telling slaves to shut up IC at every opportunity, threatening death at the drop of a hat and being about as imaginative with their RP as a wet rag. But Gor is certainly not the only genre with power disparities. I have role played a maid in Game of Thrones sims, and had very interesting and productive scenes with kings, princes and princesses who willingly indulged me and took the lead in starting an interaction beyond "clean out the fire" because they understood that role play IS A COLLABORATIVE FUCKING ACTIVITY AND THAT HAVING IC POWER INVESTS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR BEING INCLUSIVE. And of course I've been the princess in a scene with a maid, throwing little hooks with the explicit aim of allowing a character who would normally be silent and invisible in a given situation to be included/interactive.

You're not obliged to play with anyone, and if you really, really can't imagine up a single thing to role play with a slave that doesn't fit snugly into the "boring" box, I'm sorry for ya but it's your call. But trying to disguise that lack of imagination and lack of desire to be inclusive, that refusal to acknowledge and compensate for an IC power disparity in order to get a scene rolling... as the fault of boring slave players? That's just fuckery.

If people in SL Gor tried RP every now and then they might actually surprise themselves. :roll:
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Glaucon » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:50 pm

I was baiting before, obviously.

But... and this has little to do with the role of slave in SL Gor, but it has to do with the typical behavior of players that play 'sub' or 'slave' in a less RP-oriented sense in SL (often in D/s type sims)...

... there ARE very passive players out there, many of whom play (or OOCly try to fit into) such sub or slave roles, that really are waiting around for some Masterly Master dude or Mysterious Mistress to come along and make stuff happen, give them RP. Players to whom the idea that, they, themselves, should do their best to contribute to that RP in some way that is entertaining to that 'D' doesn't seem to occur. They just stand or sit around, looking pretty (or already coming loaded with chains or whatever) waiting to be picked up and played with. And then they just undergo whatever the 'D' boy or girl has to offer. They give little thought to what they might offer in return, RP-wise.

I am talking pretty massive quantities, here.

As I remember it, part of those players used to wind up in Gor. You get very little back when you put something in. I won't blame anyone for simply ignoring this type, for the most part.
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Oor » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:03 am

I agree, but that "type" is quite hard to distinguish from the person playing the "regular slave" type character who also has a lot of depth and can take you on an epic adventure if you show a little interest and a little generosity, at first glance. And very easy to distinguish after a post or two. And I still contend that the same is true of free men and women. The free women are (largely) "slut in robe" types who are all super slutty behind closed doors and the free men are just looking for that FW or slave or (god help us) both to snuggle up with.

Free woman drinking tea
Free man guarding a gate
Slave kneeling quietly or doing a chore

All characters with the same amount of potential - for better or worse.

It would be a big mistake to assume that free women don't also fit into that "sub" type, OOC, at pretty much the same rate.
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Oor » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:11 am

ALSO...

*rolls up sleeves*

When you play a slave character, there is this tangible OOC expectation that just is not present with other roles, that you are somehow desperate for role play and are 100% guaranteed to be secretly creaming your fancy knickers and going full 14 yr old at a 1D concert (One Direction, Glaucon - they are a hip young band) every time some dude glances their way and murrs out in his sexy imaginary voice "Paga, slut, harta!" - and in reality they're sitting there gritting their teeth and waiting for the inevitable "wow that post got me hard* so they can nope out without feeling bad.
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Sasi
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Sasi » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:56 am

What Oor said, exactly.....

Also, Glaucon, fact is that most FM and FW players expect a real sub behind the typist of a slave... And they LOVE that. Yes, SL Gor is filled with idiots who climax when being called "master" "mistress" in OOC (Gor Hub, OOC chat groups, etc). All these people are pathetic.

For every lame slave player, anyway, there are a FM/FW player who wants them that way, because it's how they like slaves and enjoy their RP.

Myself, in my previous attempts of playing a slave (never lasted long...), faced the kind of lame RP that Oor described. I have even been ejected from a sim (the last very lame "Resurgent Ar") because I asked a slaver to stop godmodding me and take turns when posting (the respect of the RP etiquette was in the OOC rules). I was a "princess slave"....

Because in SL Gor, the term "princess" is tossed around liberally to indicate the typist of a slave girl character who is not behaving like the lame idiots think she should IC/OOC, following their black and white interpretation of the book and their idea that if you play a slave, you should be a sub (and their idea of what is a sub, so, woman who soaks her panties when in presence of so called "true Gorean men" (yes, OOC) and will not try to voice an opinion)

I played a FW and I played with slaves the way FW interact with them in the books. Conflict, cruelty, rivarly, jealousy. Some slave players didn't understand, but those who were creative, loved and enjoyed the scene. And at the end, I remember some very good stories where slave girls were entirely part of my stories (and nicely plotted against my char as well). And most of my scenes with other FW were... Boring, definitely boring...

Most FW are the passive type... They expect a man, they expect the Prince Charming... They want to be courted like princesses... When one FW player seeks an IC father, she expects he will find her a companion... Most FW in SL Gor limit their RP to some lovey dovey tea party / , companion, family and babies. It's all!

They are not more entertaining and creative than cookie cutter slaves. They are the same, just different roles. And subs too, claiming they know their place, sluts in the bedroom. They are just women who wants the D/S part with a master, without having to deal with the restrictions, the limits, the belittling imposed to slave characters.

And still, your arguments don't explain why in SL Gor, FM and FW players can't get rid of their Earth mentality and abide by the author's romanticized philosophical principes and the cultural standards described in the books, where it's the slave girl that men truly seek, enjoy, prize, for whom they fight, and love... (even if they treat her with zero respect, harshly and consider she has a status even inferior than the one of an animal)...
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Tantus » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:37 am

To be clear, I don't hate slave characters! The bulk of my dissatisfaction is towards male characters in BTB.

The women on these forums have issues with lifestylish's men in BTB.
There are also lifestylish slaves all over BTB.

And if I prefer not to waste time on them, it makes me a slave hater?


The character I roleplay is somewhat odd in his ways. And there are roleplayer-slaves out there who understand him, and they will literally harass him on the streets. They know how to piss him off, he will tell them off...or more. And it's entertaining roleplay.

I will RP with whoever wants to. It doesn't matter to me how good/poorly a person emotes, we'll have a good go at it.
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Oor
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Re: Slave player/character hating

Postby Oor » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:57 am

Tantus wrote:The women on these forums have issues with lifestylish's men in BTB.
There are also lifestylish slaves all over BTB.


Nah mate, it's more like "people all over SL Gor, BTB or GE, are looking for some OOC D/s interaction, and trying to navigate that and find decent RP is a pain in the ass."

The only difference is that in BTB you have the kneeling twue Goron slaves and in GE you have the "I'm totally submissive but you're not a real man, Cuntface" subs, and their respective male populations playing to those types in the hopes of vagina - and none of them able to keep their OOC D/s bullshit out of role play. If anything, I've been "hit on" OOC more, when playing a male character, by people playing free women.

It's not a free vs. slaves thing. Saying you avoid slaves because a majority are lifestylish isn't any less of a "slave hating" proposition when the same "lifestylish" characteristic applies to a majority of every other role, too.

Also - the tired old meme where a slave has to find a way to piss off a FM character (whether it suits her personality or not) in order to get any attention/RP? :roll:

Heaven forfend a Gorean man might feel positively about a slave and interact anyway. Surely, that cannot be Gorean!
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