1on1 VS Group RP

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Glaucon
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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Glaucon » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:59 pm

Manon Seid wrote:I used to enjoy the semi para roleplay, actually I still do at times when I encounter it. But I find it takes much more of my time and my focus from my every day RL life, since I will HAVE to be focused on the screen ALL the time while the rp happens. I can't just wander off and start prepare dinner or fold laundry. Help the kid with his homework or cuddle The Terrorist as he wanders to my keyboard for attention. All those things I can do during para-roleplay. I might be weird but I don't loose that precious immersion just because I am looking away from the screen for a few moments. So I don't get bored with waiting long for another players post - please be my guest - take 20 mins to type if you like. Often it will suit me just fine because I have this thing I need to do RL and it will fit nicely with my rp downtime till its my turn to read your post and type again :) For me para roleplay is a much more relaxed form of roleplay and it still holds all the things I love about immersion, action and character and story development.

I think that might be exactly why I personally do NOT like para-RP. I am the sort that is better when he does one thing at a time. I tend to focus on that. So, if I were to RP and had to wait 20 minutes, I'd literally be waiting all that time. Maybe reread the posts before again. Twiddle my thumbs some. Stretch. And waiting. Getting impatient. Waiting. Thinking up a new rant against para-RP... and waiting some more.

If I do start doing something else, watch TV, do some work, get into IM chatting, read about something... I will get immersed in that instead, and tend to forget all about the RP scene I am in.

OY...and on topic: I like both 1 on 1 and group rp. But group rp involving more than 4 people gives me a headache. Especially if its oneliners or semi para roleplayers. I don't read or type that FAST. Dammit. I miss half the posts and by the time I am done figuring out how to construct the sentence with the stuff i want to say, weed out the typos, rewrite because someone jumped PO and negated what I had already typed, the entire scene has moved on and half the people left. And that's when I attempt to type out just two - three lines :P

And I am fine with those situations. Can be a bit challenging, keeping up with one-liner and/or short-form semi RP-ers, with the group not following any posting order. But if you don't try to treat it like para-RP, it is fine. And much of the non-RP SL is like that, anyway, with people just talking OOCly, interjecting at their leisure. When that form is used by people that are still RP-ing, it can look a bit messy, admittedly. Not very pretty RP. But it is lively and can be fun for a while. To me, anyway. And also very much a matter of what you are used to.
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Sasi
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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Sasi » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:19 pm

Actually, Glaucon, I still think that if you really want to go into depths with the emotions and feelings of two characters in a scene, no, 3 lines posts won't work.

To give you an example, actually, my FW has been enslaved, forced collared. She was formerly a pampered woman of high station, high caste. What she is experiencing, feeling, her inner struggles, her fears, the way she evolves in her collar as well as the feelings of her owner who molds her, demeans her, strips her from her pride, the reminder sometimes of their both pasts justifying the way they are feeling, sensing, expressing, etc, cannot be described in short posts. No way.
That would become too superficial. It's the way that John Norman write his books. But it's only frustrating. In our RP, we have the opportunity to explore feelings and emotions of our characters.

So, yes, in these particulars scenes, the posts are quite long... Really long. But they immerse those who are part of them. It is, of course, a style which only fits an 1on1 scene, maybe 3 players, but it would be a maximum. The players who involve in these scenes, usually private, do enjoy them. They don't care to wait for a post, because they know that the content will be worth the wait. I remember too, a woman who some day, just stayed in chat range, didn't interfere in the scene, just because she enjoyed the scene and wanted to know what would happen. I did it myself, just reading and enjoying a scene where I had no role to play...

I'm not saying it's the way that would be applied to every scene, no. But it's definitely not a style to neglect or treat with contempt.

And like Manon, I can perfectly do something else (typing a post on the Gorums, be on Facebook, reddit, chatting in IMs, on Skype, watching TV, cuddle the cats, shopping on the marketplace) while waiting for the next post. And then, once my RP partner posted, I jump, eagerly on his post, immediately taken by the context, in immersion again. When you're watching your favorite TV show, do you lose your immersion because it's cut by 3 min of advertising? You keep yourself busy and you come back at your TV with even more pleasure. Because when it's good, when you truly enjoy, when there is some suspense (how will your partner RP react to what your character just did or said? What will happen to your??), I don't see how you can definitely break your immersion...
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Oor
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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Oor » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:23 pm

Fffffffffffffffffffffuckit!

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Tantus
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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Tantus » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:57 pm

Qingwen wrote:Just curious, what is this "good ol'Gorean roleplay with a slave or two." and how would they have "earned it"?

I would look askance at anyone who considered roleplaying with my character as recreational downtime from real RP... but perhaps I'm reading that wrong :hrm:


Terrible as it sounds, IC'ly, that's what slaves are there for ;)

Any IC leadership position is tough going, eventually everyone needs a break and just wants to wander and roleplay for themselves.


Anarch Allegiere wrote:
Tantus wrote:there're hundreds of good roleplayers in BTB


Pretty sure we're RPing in a different BtB Gor then. :p
► Show Spoiler


We've all got to lower our expectations a little for BTB and make the most of it. I'd say 'hundreds' of para-roleplayers have been through BTB Gor, the point was how many of them have stepped up and taken responsibilities seriously? How many have taken charge of sim-wide roleplays and really pushed them forwards?

Very few people make this much effort to enable roleplay for others.

A war scenario as you describe could be done, but it would work only with women roleplaying the victims and men as the oppressors. And after a couple of weeks even those men would get bored.

So we had 'victory conditions' defined at the start of each conflict, to give us something to work towards and to bring the war to swift a conclusion as possible. In a BTB war you're racing against the inevitable RP ban, so you may aswell throw in some diplomatic RP and negotiate a peace on your terms - and we managed it! Except one sim did RP ban us in the end. Though we got our roleplay's worth out of them so I have no complaints.
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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Tantus » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:03 pm

Sasi wrote:Why would it be uninteresting? Because it doesn't fit your basic idea of what a slave should be? But such a situation is -by the books- described in the books. It's not about how to be perceived. It's about a character, a role, a situation and how you character will react to it.

"It is not unknown for free men to cultivate a high slave, hoping that she will influence her master in their behalf. She may thus enjoy a genuine measure of power, and permit herself an exercise of will and voice unusual in a lower slave, playing with the ambitions and hopes of sycophants, soliciting gifts for her favors, and so on." (Magicians)

But role players of Earth's ego tend to consider that it's beneath them to RP with such a character, using it to serve their personal ambitions, hmmm?


It's not about how you want your character to be, it's all about what your character has done.

How many black castes and kur out there want to be seen as menacing, but spend 80% of their time cuddling with slavegirls. How do you reconcile cuddles with frightening?

I don't. I couldn't care less how many book quotes and backstories are filling that profile, if I know this character is a cuddler, I will treat him like one.

Of all the archetypes I dismiss by default, slaves are the least of them.

90% of people in this game have done fuck all to be the sort of character they're hoping to portray. And when you're throwing down quotes to say 'This is why you must respect my character', that's godmodding. Your character is what you roleplay and everything you've achieved through roleplaying.

If I have business in a city and a 'high slave' is owned by that particular merchant, I wouldn't invest any RP time in her unless I know she's capable of getting results in a shorter timeframe than I could manage alone. She might be amazing at roleplaying her character but can she get results? Has she proved her worth in the past? That's how I'm going to process her OOC'ly and if I don't see the potential, I'm going to pass.


Sasi wrote:
Tantus wrote:So I am particular about timings and won't appreciate some random element who won't be a productive part of that meeting, e.g. a slave using 20 minutes to roleplay passively about herself.


If she were actively included in the scene, given the chance of being noticed not just because she serves drinks, she would not be role playing passively about herself...

And personally, since I play a slave, and I flatter myself of not playing a cookie cutter one, nor the annoying brat, I noticed that it's rather, mostly, those who play a free who have zero creativity when rping with a slave. But for flirting with a FW, they're often quite good (I know by experience, since I played a FW, because in SL Gor, men do love the company of FW and, unlike in the books, are seldom attracted to slave girls).


In the context of my earlier post, I'd rather not have spare tyres rolling around a Group Roleplay's posting order. There are already time limits to these meetings, you have 4 people posting and tossing in someone's precious slave isn't going to add anything. I don't mean that to be disrespectful to all those roleplayers out there, when my character has nothing to add and becomes an encumbrance then I walk away too.

There's also a risk in adding random slaves to your schemes. Because of all the people who IM me with Gorean gossip, they are overwhelmingly roleplaying slaves. Everything that men have confided in them is being pushed out across SL. So if you have a grand scheme in the works which requires some discretion, don't involve just anyone.

The slave you've chosen to involve may just end up sold/stolen by your target. And then your plans leak out IC'ly too.

I don't have so many considerations for free women, particularly as you get to know the competent ones. I will do them favours when they need, and when that day comes, I'll tell them "Go to this city, get this done, this week." And I know they're good for it. That's the difference between having an OOC backstory, or being IC'ly dependable. In BTB Gor women are more reliable than men, you've just got to know the right ones.


Sasi wrote:
► Show Spoiler


Actually, my best RP scenes with other women were with other slave characters. I love rping with other slaves!

So, please, could we stop bitching about slave players? And I admit that many are lame. But no more than those who play a FW or a FM.


The scene you describe happens everywhere, it's all the sad state of BTB. I just tend to ignore anything that looks irrelevant.

So to reiterate, I don't discriminate against the roles people play, but I do expect them to play the character they're trying to be. At the last sim I roleplayed on, I turned down 4 people from joining our scribes. They were all competent roleplayers and most sims would take them on into any caste. But I expect more commitment from people than being able to para-RP. A FW wanted to be a magistrate, I asked her to read our laws and return to me. So she came back with a list of laws and said, "I wrote these like you asked!". Plagiarized laws aside, that was the end of that.

Over the course of weeks, another guy wanted to be a magistrate, but I've only ever seen him cuddling his slaves. That was an instant no. And worse, he sent his slave to meet me on his behalf. A double no!

Another one wanted to be magistrate who I'd only ever seen indoors, roleplaying with his own companion. Fuck no. If someone wants to be a magistrate I expect him to be out there engaging with the population and being available for everyone beyond his immediate family.

The fourth one wanting to be magistrate, I couldn't see him taking it seriously beyond abusing authority. Which is fun roleplay, but also means more work for me eventually and I expect people to do part of their job properly.

Other people in our caste were roleplaying publicly and I would tell them, they can have any position they want. That is all I really expect from anyone, is they are making themselves available and enabling roleplay for others.

Having a rank/title is a job which most people have no appreciation for. Sims fall apart because the ranked characters are never around, which delays the stories of others, eventually people get tired of waiting and leave the sim.

Unproductive slave-spam is one thing, but I do take issue with free-characters who're wasting the time of others too.
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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Qingwen » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:36 pm

Tantus wrote:
Qingwen wrote:Just curious, what is this "good ol'Gorean roleplay with a slave or two." and how would they have "earned it"?

I would look askance at anyone who considered roleplaying with my character as recreational downtime from real RP... but perhaps I'm reading that wrong :hrm:


Terrible as it sounds, IC'ly, that's what slaves are there for ;)

Any IC leadership position is tough going, eventually everyone needs a break and just wants to wander and roleplay for themselves.


ICly of course! At least the character I am currently playing certainly is. But, let's be honest, this isn't really RP; this is one scene wonder wank time, and there are lots of other places in SL precisely for that, with every fetish under the sun.
Not that I know this firsthand.. cough..
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Oor
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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Oor » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:48 pm

Tantus wrote:
Qingwen wrote:Just curious, what is this "good ol'Gorean roleplay with a slave or two." and how would they have "earned it"?

I would look askance at anyone who considered roleplaying with my character as recreational downtime from real RP... but perhaps I'm reading that wrong :hrm:


Terrible as it sounds, IC'ly, that's what slaves are there for ;)


We could reduce all roles down to pithy one-liners if we were so inclined. Free women are for babies and are largely confined to their homes - but are apparently the most reliable agents to send to foreign cities.

You're not obliged to RP with slave girls - nobody is obliged to RP with anyone - but the sob stories about how you weally weally wish you had the time to are a bit rich. None of us who play as and with slaves often, and in ways that enhance ongoing storylines, aren't buying it.

Free women are your preference, as rape fodder, as IC agents. Fine! But making out that slaves are objectively not worth bothering with IC if you've plot going on? Sounds like someone who hasn't made much of an attempt to engage good slave players in anything beyond IC dick-wetting.

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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Qingwen » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:15 am

Oor wrote:((smart stuff about slave rp))


:thumbup:

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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Sasi » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:28 am

I'm not sure to understand well, Tantus....

Tantus wrote:
90% of people in this game have done fuck all to be the sort of character they're hoping to portray. And when you're throwing down quotes to say 'This is why you must respect my character', that's godmodding. Your character is what you roleplay and everything you've achieved through roleplaying.

If I have business in a city and a 'high slave' is owned by that particular merchant, I wouldn't invest any RP time in her unless I know she's capable of getting results in a shorter timeframe than I could manage alone. She might be amazing at roleplaying her character but can she get results? Has she proved her worth in the past? That's how I'm going to process her OOC'ly and if I don't see the potential, I'm going to pass.



How can you know that the high slave would be not capable of getting results if you don't try, don't meet her? In getting OOC informations? You know, it's always the problem... People don't give a chance to BTB characters who are a bit out of the SL Gor norm and obviously, you are no exception at this annoying rule... But see, this character could maybe not giving you the result you want, but just an excellent scene with her. A story could start between your two characters. Who knows, the girl could please your char, you may decide you want her. Or she could offend him seriously, and so, you would have a revenge to plot. In both options, you have a plot, an intrigue to start, a story and an opponent.

So, RPing with a slave player is only worth your time if she has something to bring to your scheme (and at the condition it secures its success)? You never engage someone in RP, just for the sake of RP, with no scheme in mind? Never...? I'm sure you do... With FM and FW... Obviously, you hold a serious prejudice toward slave rpers. Let's be honest, they are not totally, for you, a category of rpers who can bring fun... Pity, because at the end, the intrigues in the books always bring back the men toward a slave...

I'm sure you RP without any problem with a lot of people who have proved nothing in the past. Would you avoid a role play with the ubar of such city just because he never RPed his rise to the throne in a sim which just opened? Because he didn't spend months or years at working on making his ambitions triumph? That ubar was maybe, in another sim, just some mere lieutenant... Would you avoid to RP with a physician who has proved nothing, just started his role in sim X as a physician?

But you would snob the slave player... Excuse me, but I don't believe you treat all players equally...

Because at the end, it's not how we get our roles, which is important. It's the background on which our characters are based. If someone has a very good backstory, I don't care if he is a ubar, a high slave, a commander... It's what is important.
So, if this high slave has the coherent background of a high slave, owned by a high merchant, for plausible reasons, if their story make clear that a foreigner have more chances to approach the merchant in offering a little gift to his pampered girl, I see no reason for not enjoying a scene which is almost never played in SL Gor, but perfectly by the books.

Tantus wrote:90% of people in this game have done fuck all to be the sort of character they're hoping to portray. And when you're throwing down quotes to say 'This is why you must respect my character', that's godmodding. Your character is what you roleplay and everything you've achieved through roleplaying.


No, 90% of people don't want to leave their zone of comfort and their little habits + black and white interpretation of the books. The books detail a culture in which people behave in following a certain mentality (a culture creates a general mentality). So, sometimes, you may have to prove that in the books, this character you play is plausible, that people would react this way in its presence, etc etc. It is not godmodding, since no action is ICly forced on you. You are entirely free to react the way you want. Just, be aware that if you are off norm, you should have to make it clear in your RP.
Imagine an example: If you are the one who wants to consider that the ubara of Ar who granted you an audience should shut up when you rant, even bow at you, when definitely, the books state the opposite. Ok, fine, but at least, make clear in your RP that your character is behaving in a way that is out of the norm. But also, remember a detail... In a real situation, the ubara would have around her, a group of Taurentians who would likely teach you how to respect the protocol, and not gently...

Because in SL Gor, people tend to neglect a coherent environment and so, will have no issue to tell a ubar to go fuck himself if they find the guy, in SL Gor, alone in his palace. In a realistic environment, that would be impossible. In SL Gor, consequences seldom happen.

About the zone of comfort, I think this statement you made speaks volumes:
Tantus wrote: The fourth one wanting to be magistrate, I couldn't see him taking it seriously beyond abusing authority. Which is fun roleplay, but also means more work for me eventually and I expect people to do part of their job properly.


Sorry, but it's clearly a reluctance at leaving your zone of comfort. This guy would have caused IC issues with which your character would have had to deal. I suppose you're not the exception and it's why in SL Gor we only have nice honest magistrates, never corrupt who dispense justice based on their Earth principles...

Tantus wrote:There's also a risk in adding random slaves to your schemes. Because of all the people who IM me with Gorean gossip, they are overwhelmingly roleplaying slaves. Everything that men have confided in them is being pushed out across SL. So if you have a grand scheme in the works which requires some discretion, don't involve just anyone.
The slave you've chosen to involve may just end up sold/stolen by your target. And then your plans leak out IC'ly too.


Well, actually, if your plot is ruined because OOC gossips, if those involved in it let the OOC information conduct their reactions, are these people worthy of your time...? Plus, it's why the dices exist, when we have a decision to make for our characters, one that could impact their future, eh let's the dices decide for you.
Also, the risk of being ICly reported by the slave, is, well, a risk. So, a danger added to your scheme. The slave heard the plot, she knows... Maybe should she be detained, secured... It's unlikely that her owner, if he is part of the plot, will sell her. You have to make sure she won't be stolen. Eh, you just added another risk in your story, a difficulty to deal. All for more fun. See, I think you may need, to push your creativity, instead of wanting to keep some players away. Leave your zone of comfort, Tantus, welcome the risks and the unexpectedness and too, give a chance to slave players, even just for the sake of some good scene which may be not linked to your current schemes.

Plus, excuse me, but gossiping is a well know SL Gor hobby, and believe me, men are very skilled at it. I can't count the number of schemes which I have been told in IMs, even those who concerned my char, like "this woman is trying to hire an assassin against you" or "This woman is trying to bribe the stable master in order to buy your fighting slave" or "We are preparing a scheme to arrest and collar this woman" etc etc etc... So please...

Also, let's face another reality, Tantus... I gathered you were very reluctant at playing with these lame slave players, (although, I tend to think you don't even give a chance to most slave players). But you have no issue in engaging in role play with the guys who play their master... And it puzzles me.....

Because see, when I see a player whose IC master/slave is some lame dude/wench, I have immediately low expectations about that player... If a player enjoys the RP of some uncreative lame player and has him or her as regular RP partner, I consider it happens because his own RP matches the one of his/her partner... In this case, I won't waste my time...

Also, it's dangerous to put a pressure on people for they provide RP for others because an IC leadership. It's a way to tell them, for example: I don't care about the storyline you're having with that woman you just collared. Organize that, play that, engage X people... The result? These players are quickly burned out and end up resigning because their personal story is ruined as they have only to focus on being a sim entertainer. I agree that some important roles will require a commitment. But no one would have to stop playing a few hours with his slave girl just because he is head of caste.
Most people in SL Gor, too, should remember that often, the role they play don't require they have often interactions with some IC V.I.P. I can't count the number of times when I see people OOC'ly complaining in sims where I played, that the ubar was always in his palace. Where should he be? Strolling in the streets like the average dude, or taking a paga with the baker and the smith in the next tavern? Or in his palace, summoning important people, building schemes to secure his power and run the state? Or even, in his pleasure garden with his slave girls...?

I prefer the scribe who will FTB his caste work and put the focus on some intrigue and plot which will impact my character than to play with the scribe who will just be able to write some contract on a NC in always following a process, and after, will continue with some mundane RP.

But there, you will hate what I will say, but I consider that 90% of scribes and physicians of SL Gor are the most uncreative RPers in this genre... The best proof? Slave registrations and slave exams. You know, these notices you suddenly receive, which require from citizens of your city that they register their slave (but weirdly, never their other assets...) and get them examined by the local physicians... Two lame imposed RPs, ininteresting, even not supported by the books. Just because your lame local clique of scribes and physicians have nothing to RP.... And they will RP these scenes in filling a NC between 2 posts that are tossed following a perfect little boring process, or for the scribe, just get your NC, then drop it in some scripted furniture....
So, 90% of scribes of SL Gor don't even deserve a position such as magistrate or ambassador (and nothing even supports in the books that these positions are their due, anyway...)

Having a rank title is not a job, in a role play game... It's a role, a fictive role which is part of the game. If it becomes a job, stop it, seriously... And sims fall apart because people turn their interest toward a newest one, because they expect the admin team will provide for them the stories they can't write by themselves, because they don't get all their caprices satisfied, because they want to try something new, because something unexpected happen in their RL, etc etc... The reasons for which sims close are numerous...

Anyway, suggestion for you, Tantus: Try enjoying a good scene, whatever it gets linked or not to your current scheme, whatever the player with whom you will share the scene will bring something positive or negative in the success of your ongoing plots...

And I totally agree with Anarch on the war subject. Wars in SL Gor are a joke, with zero consequences.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: 1on1 VS Group RP

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:21 am

Tantus wrote:
Anarch Allegiere wrote:
Tantus wrote:there're hundreds of good roleplayers in BTB


Pretty sure we're RPing in a different BtB Gor then. :p


We've all got to lower our expectations a little for BTB and make the most of it.

(snip)


You're saying we should lower our expectations in BtB Gor, to the point of not expecting any men to ever role play losing, then on the other hand you're saying people should "role play" to deserve their roles. Sounds like a pretty problematic contradiction to me.

Secondly, we can't really know if someone "earned" their role. A lot of the roles from the books existed because there were powerful individuals and others actually had to worry about dieing and not losing anything. In BtB Gor almost every man is invincible, flawless, perfect, the best swordsman ever and smarter than any scribe who listens to no Ubar or Ubara, etc. etc.

Sure, we can lower our expectations to the point we'll be accepting that men never lose, that violence doesn't bring any consequences, that wars are just a little giggle, but by doing so we won't be role playing in a gorean setting anymore and countless possibilities and dynamics in the books are made void, every slave is a kettle-girl and rapebait for the poorest beggar man in the streets and even Ubars and Ubaras, Magistrates, guardsmen or the law can be ignored, because hey, just RP ban and reset your meter if things don't go your way, or TP out.

This leans very heavily towards turning BtB in just the same storyless GE pew pew raiding.

Not that it matters /to me/. I've since a long time decided that BtB Gor just isn't an enjoyable role play environment for me as someone who is a story writer, it's why we stomped "CoCE" out of the ground, and if that doesn't work out for me I'll be heading back to a RP sim in which the basics of role play and the realism of the environment are respected a lot more, but not to BtB Gor. Because I neither want to lower my expectations to the point of which I just don't enjoy what I'm doing anymore.

BtB Gor is great for a bit of one-on-one (often storyless) slave-girl abuse and raping FW in capture scenes, but that is where the fun ends, and as mentioned, there are better sims in SL to get those kinks seen to. And the few times you have a good storyline going on in BtB Gor with someone you often don't want 'random' others on the sim to join in because 9 out of 10 times they fuck it up, because the sim you're on loves that juicy traffic and allows every mamba cannibal man, Pani samourai and slave-girl with glowing eyes and poison teeth (or the 90% others who don't have a clue what genre they're actually playing in) to come join the sim.

Almost every more elaborate and enjoyable role play storylines i've had in BtB Gor required me to simultaneously fend off or juggle and manage OOC resentment (from others who felt what I was RPing wasn't gorean (because it was too violent or too demeaning to women or represented 'rape culture' (go figure)) or keeping away those who I didn't enjoy RPing with from fucking up the entire storyline within the snap of a finger (because of godmodding, combat meters, absurd ungorean characters that pissed on the whole central gorean dynamic my story was based on (example: countless FW and FM who RP slave-girls aren't nearly as hot an attractive as FW, in a storyline that was about my character being attracted to a slave-girl -or- Free who completely ignore slave-girl RP (beyond getting paga served) while I tried to use them as central figures of my storyline -or- countless Free Men who completely ignore slave-girls when you're trying to run a brothel).

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