Gor always draws you back...

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Tamar Luminos
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby Tamar Luminos » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:56 am

Tantus- it's funny you should bring up Iomai. I remember being referred to it early on by a few people, checked it out and found it to be dreadfully boring, and not really Gorean at all. Though it did have a place, at the time, for folks who wanted to play pretend D/s in a really gentle, supportive environment. Not gonna knock it now, it served as a niche for folks who wanted to play that sorta thing. Though calling itself a "Gorean Slave Training School" might have been fudging quite a bit as their take was about as far from Gorean slave training as described in the books as most Gorean slave training one sees on most BtB sims is. LOL

I had a thought about the fact that some people seem to have such a hard time separating IC from OOC- and your bit here, Scar, just jogged it loose:

" It’s very difficult to divorce your real self from your digital self, because every action of the latter is initiated by the former, and people can become so invested in all this imaginative stuff that the line between the two begins to blur. Some people can’t even see when they’ve crossed it."

I remember when I first started transitioning from lifestyler to roleplayer, that there was a third title tossed around in HTML Gor, "soulplayer", or someone who wanted to roleplay scenes from the actual books, without onlinisms, but still with a lot of emotional investment and payoff. I think when people talk about "immersion" in roleplay, they may be talking about that emotional investment and payoff. And I remember how it was harder and harder for me to find that immersion- the closer to the roleplay spectrum I got. Not impossible, but harder. And I got to thinking, I wonder if that's why some people have such a hard time distancing themselves from the characters that they play, from the action and interactions that occur, and why they can't even see when they've crossed the line with others? Because they seek that immersion so deeply, they can't quite keep the two separate IC and OOC? I dunno, there was more to that thought process, but it seems to have evaporated since I slept. LOL

But really, I think it comes down to the fact that there are folks who are decent people OOC and treat others decent OOC and then there are folks who have bought too far into their own fantasy world and treat others like OOC NPC's in their own little drama, and can't/won't turn it OFF, and folks like that kinda suck and I tend to avoid them, personally. I used to be one of them, way back when, sad to say but I grew out of it.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
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Qingwen
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby Qingwen » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:59 am

Tantus wrote:
SL Gor needed lifestyles sims like these to keep the vulnerable out of regular Gorean sims. Now every BTB sim is practically a safezone, so the Lifestyle sims became redundant.



That explains a lot. I play in BTB sims, and when I roleplay a slave character, some slave players cling to me like baby koalas asking if their rp is ok, if master will approve of their outfit, if it is ok to log off, and how they cannot bear to say "No" or do anything wrong in rp or it will traumatise them in rl, etc. It's seriously creepy. I've never had any problems with the male players pushing unwanted rp (or ooc chat) on me, but the slaves... they can be really... determined.
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby -Scar- » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:13 pm

Ah, soulplaying. I remember that. It was a term that became quite popular on the old HTMLs, but it was born from the pen and paper roleplaying world, along with its companion FFC (or, Free Form Combat). I remember there was an article about it in a magazine called Roleplayer Independent, around the time when diceless RPGs were starting to come out, like Amber. In that game, you simply compared traits. For example, Strength. The greater the difference, the more swift and certain the action, so STR 1 vs STR 2 would be Batman vs Superman, while STR 1 vs STR 100 would be the Loki vs Hulk. (you know what I mean, “Puny Gods!”). I was well into soulplaying and diceless RPGs. Soon as the combat meter came to SL Gor things started to go downhill, and now we have folks that think an Assassin hasn’t killed anyone unless they’ve done so with via a combat meter. That’s not to say being skilled with meter combat is a joke, or that the meter game isn’t fun, but it’s just as effective for roleplay as RPG Dice HUDs are.
Scar - Assassin of Gor
Elgin Loring, Feb 24, 2009: Byron is one scary bastard, he unnerves me most when he is making an effort NOT to be scary.
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Tamar Luminos
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby Tamar Luminos » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:50 pm

-Scar- wrote:Ah, soulplaying. I remember that. It was a term that became quite popular on the old HTMLs, but it was born from the pen and paper roleplaying world, along with its companion FFC (or, Free Form Combat). I remember there was an article about it in a magazine called Roleplayer Independent, around the time when diceless RPGs were starting to come out, like Amber. In that game, you simply compared traits. For example, Strength. The greater the difference, the more swift and certain the action, so STR 1 vs STR 2 would be Batman vs Superman, while STR 1 vs STR 100 would be the Loki vs Hulk. (you know what I mean, “Puny Gods!”). I was well into soulplaying and diceless RPGs. Soon as the combat meter came to SL Gor things started to go downhill, and now we have folks that think an Assassin hasn’t killed anyone unless they’ve done so with via a combat meter. That’s not to say being skilled with meter combat is a joke, or that the meter game isn’t fun, but it’s just as effective for roleplay as RPG Dice HUDs are.


So -that's- where it came from! Now I'm wondering where the term "ERP- Erotic Role Play" came from...lol It's funny how these things spring up and get passed around. I've played diceless RP, but it was more free form, I was running an 'interdimensional' game just for shits and giggles and we had The Tick with the Little Wooden Boy, Laz and Lor from Heinlein's Lazarus Long books, a Green Lantern (Hal, I believe), and a Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtle character (from the tabletop RPG). It was ridiculous and fun. I do miss RP. I think that's why I still haunt SL, but damn, it's hard for me to find most days.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
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Sasi
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby Sasi » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:03 pm

-Scar- wrote:ress.

Sasi wrote:Plus, you can still try to RP as book authentic, you need people who will match your style if you want to have fun.

I respectfully disagree. Or, rather, I've not needed anyone else to play like me in order to have fun. It's nice when it happens, but isn't required.


Actually, no, I don't think you can disagree. If you are trying to play your character authentically but have only interactions with people who play theirs with onlineisms or who don't understand the culture and try to engage you in unrealistic scenes, if you are a RPer enjoying detailed emotes and following turns when posting and meet the exact opposite in RP, or worse, with godmodders, I don't think you will enjoy such experience.
I didn't mean you have to find people perfectly reflecting your writing styls and vocabulary in order to have fun, but I know no experienced rper with a good understanding of the theme of the RP environment he joined who could have fun when limited to interactions with people who don't respect the RP basic rules and the theme...

Sasi wrote:Else, I don't think it's difficult to separate your character from your digital yourself and not blur the lines. It doesn't mean that people should not experience a large palette of emotions following a scene or storyline, but in the same way than those they would feel when they read a very good book or watch an excellent movie.

-Scar- wrote:I am, of course, referring to the precociously persistent OOC drama.


I was just refering to this claim you made:

-Scar- wrote: It’s very difficult to divorce your real self from your digital self, because every action of the latter is initiated by the former, and people can become so invested in all this imaginative stuff that the line between the two begins to blur.


This sounded like a generality. As I said, for me, it's pretty simple, you have just to keep in mind that your character is not you. A small effort that, sadly, people don't do. I remember in 2006/2007 when SL Gor was mostly surrounded by lifestylers, we didn't think really to separate. Very few people separated IC and OOC, you had to align yourself with the general lifestyle culture if you didn't want to be ostracized. I remember I had started as a kajira and got banned from a sim because I had refused to address a woman with the "mistress" title in the OOC market............ SL Gor was even more like a ghetto (and less sims as well)

Now, the environment is different, people should be able to make this simple effort and sim owners should enforce the IC /OOC separation in all aspects or their sim rules (not only to forbid people to speak OOC in open chat...).
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby Oor » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:36 am

-Scar- wrote:It’s very difficult to divorce your real self from your digital self...


It's not. It's really, really not. For those who "get it", it's not difficult in the least. It irks me when people who do find it difficult project this BS and assume everyone else is also finding it difficult. They're not - and this sort of attitude is practically non-existent outside of SL Gor. It's not "Aww, she's a soulplayer, cut her some slack!" in other genres, it's "look at that mental bitch having a shit fit over pretendy fiction!" - as it should be.
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby -Scar- » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:44 am

Wow. It’s replies like these two that make me realise that a career in standup is likely not for me. :clap:

Just to clarify, if I press the W key on my keyboard, in SL Gor my avatar walks forward. The OOC act of pressing that key has my character walk through the streets of Ar. This is what I meant by finding it difficult to divorce OOC from IC. It’s not difficult. It is, in fact, impossible. You can’t walk through the streets of Ar. You can press the W key. What I’m saying here is that some people get so invested in the IC part that they can’t see where the OOC part influenced it all. I feel a lot of OOC drama stems from this sort of thing.

Also, Sasi, I assure you that I can disagree. I do not only interact with people that employ onlinisms, or don’t get the culture, or whatever. I’ve been a roleplayer practically since the term was invented, I remember when Tunnels & Trolls was a brand new game, and it’s been ten years since I first set foot in SL Gor, so I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest I’m experienced. I can still get some fun from folks that aren’t playing the game in the same way as me or for the same reasons. I really can. It might not be as much fun as playing with someone like minded, but I can still find some enjoyment from it.

:rip:
Scar - Assassin of Gor
Elgin Loring, Feb 24, 2009: Byron is one scary bastard, he unnerves me most when he is making an effort NOT to be scary.
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:07 pm

You can get 'some kinda of' fun from people who don't really ... play according to your own standards, but it gets pretty grating after a while, and after an even longer while it'll just become an exercise in frustration. Sure, you can ignore that you just got godmodded for the 10th time into having or not having done something. Sure you can ignore it that other people are completely not getting the main philosophy of the genre they're playing in, you can ignore it that they won't let you roleplay anything that isn't "happy family Gor", or that your Warrior is suddenly expected to follow Codes that weren't anywhere in the books, or else gets treated as some kind of pariah...

It's possible to have fun with anything...

For a long time that is how I approached it all as well, it even made me able to enjoy some quick RP scenes in GE, as long as I didn't have any expectations from how others would react. But in the end, all the experiences combined, I had to conclude I wasn't doing "gorean" roleplay, I was doing ..... SL Gor roleplay, and the two barely resemble eachother. In SL Gor slave-girls are waitresses and true love is for companionships, in SL Gor the Warriors are noble knights that shun violence and protect Free Women from other Home-Stones, in SL Gor force-collaring a woman is a mortal sin (I tried RP that a few times in GE Gor... the responses varied from being called an OOC sex offender, to getting sim banned. Not much different in most BtB sims)... etc...

But after a while... I felt like I wanted to actually roleplay Gor, for a change. Not really possible in SL Gor, unless you limited your roleplay to a very small isolated circle of people, and hope that outsiders don't come interfere and fuck up the whole theme of it again... and again.
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby -Scar- » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:17 pm

See, that’s pretty much the same general thing that I went through, except that I sort of think that I’ve come out the other side of it with a different notion. I mean, you could just decide, yeah, okay, not playing this game anymore, because it’s not giving me quite what I want. Or you might decide, well, I’m not going to be able to globally change any of this stuff but I can faithfully represent my kind of Gor while wandering about in other people’s Gor and not let the disappointment be a bother. Because, you know what? Even in the most perfect situation, with the most perfect players, something is still going to be off at some point, and I’m long enough in the tooth to spot the onset of disaster a mile off, so I’ve usually walked away long before it arrives.

For example, a few days ago, I’m in some southern city of SL Gor and a couple of guardsmen elect to depart from my Gor by deciding that Assassins can’t be in their city unless marked or in disguise, and try to roleplay with me for 30 minutes so they can legally kill my guy according to their Gor’s daft sim rules. So, I gave them 20 minutes of roleplay to see if sanity might prevail, then walked off. I get followed by one of them, who tries to close the gate on me, but because he can’t accelerate past me without running, my head start has me pass through the gate so it closes behind me on him instead. By the time he’s fathomed all that out, I’ve left the sim via the entry point and I’m up in the OOC skybox market, looking through landmarks for somewhere else. What I’m not doing is letting that bother me. I’m not IMing everyone, telling them how daft they’re being. I’m simply leaving for new pastures. The next day, in the exact same city, I might meet some other players who are not so daft. Those people might get a longer play time. But, you know what? SL Gor has always been like this, a thing that fails to measure up but can sometimes hit the mark. It’s up to the individual player to decide for themselves if it’s worth wading through the mud to find that spark of brilliance. Currently, for the moment, I’m not minding the mud, because sometimes that mud can be amusing enough that I can enjoy spending 10 minutes of my life waxing lyrical about it on a forum.
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Elgin Loring, Feb 24, 2009: Byron is one scary bastard, he unnerves me most when he is making an effort NOT to be scary.
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Re: Gor always draws you back...

Postby Tamar Luminos » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:37 pm

Anarch's post was spot on. Scar's reply to it was as well.

That's pretty much where me (and Harlequin, since we live together and talk about this SL roleplay stuff a lot) are right now. We dipped toes in SL Gor for a bit, got bored because we both have a low threshold for what we call "standing around talking" roleplay (our fault, not saying there's anything wrong with it and lots of folks seem to love it), and wandered off to another genre, Urban Fantasy.

The sim we're on now, we knew- going in, that we'd have difficulty playing like we want to play, and fitting in. We knew there would be tedious people and scenes, and that we'd have to try to just, put in some time, get to know people, play with people and see what, if anything, we could have fun with. I've accepted this as the price of admission to roleplay in SL. There's going to be asshats on every sim. There's going to be dull people on every sim. There's going to be pushy people who are clueless about the genre we're supposed to be playing in, inexplicably in charge of key factions, and locking down roleplay to fit -their- idea of How You're Supposed to Play, and throwing hissy fits OOC whenever anyone even mentions an idea that doesn't fit their very narrow world view or plans for the plot. It's everywhere, every genre, every sim in SL.

I hate it, and it takes a lot of the fun out of it for me, and it's why I haven't really had a sim I've played on and really enjoyed myself in literally years. But I still try. Perhaps because I'm naively optimistic that something will change, that I'll find a sim or people I really enjoy playing with, creative, and smart, and exciting, and nice, decent, emotionally stable OOC, who want to play with me and make up epic storylines and intense scenes and welcome others in and allow surprises to happen and roll with new and interesting ideas. I keep hoping, I keep looking, and I try not to get too discouraged when I run into the same thing over and over again. There -are- a few of these types of cool people on every sim, and I've been really glad to meet them, and sometimes get to play a scene or two with them. It makes putting in the time and energy (what little I have of each lol) worthwhile. And honestly, I've given up and "taken a break from SL roleplay" so many times, and always come back. I love roleplay. I love SL as a roleplay medium, there's so much creative possibility. So I never really give up on it, even if I never really find what I'm looking for.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
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