Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

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Lacey
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Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Lacey » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:55 pm

Hey, I feel like a few things should be said after I have went wandering around in search of a sim for one of my avatars. People can take or leave the advice. They can also add their own advice.

Overall, the builds are starting to look like something people actually spent some time on thinking on. It looks like people are being a bit more honest about their building capabilities as well and hiring people whenever they know they are not going to be able to do a good job. Kudos.

Now whenever figuring out the building layout, think of how people who role play gor, play it. We don't tend to be people who spend weeks figuring out which group we are going to go to, applications are quicker than other role play genres, and likely people are just going to teleport in and hope to find something. This means that if someone teleports to your sim, they need to be able to run into people who play on your sim. If you just have rows and rows of streets and no way for people to "flood" together, then they are likely not going to find anyone to play with. Does the entire sim have to be an open concept? Nope. There should be more private areas and homes if you are offering those. There is nothing wrong with spreading out to do plotting that is secretive, but the first part of the sim upon landing needs to be an open concept. I shouldn't have to walk across one sim before I even see anyone. Personally, I like "squares." I had a sim with a city square and it worked great. It is more "modern" for our community than the fountains of old. Just please, have a place where just about everyone could have a purpose of being there. Not everyone is coming in after hunting down a "family" to bunk with.

The rules are surprisingly a bit more mainstream with separating IC and OOC for the most part. Some places are not doing well with this while still marked as a role play sim. Some of these same places seemed to have the majority of the players, being role players. It makes me wonder if people pay attention to what they write in their rules. I have decided that they do not whenever I realized that the most places have rules that are just copy and pasted from other sims. They didn't even look to erase the other sims' names. So, they have rules so blatantly copied that the name of the other sim is still there. That is just ridiculous. Read what rules you are putting down and then ask yourself if you need the rule or if it makes you cringe before leaving it there. I mean really, there is even this big issue with tip toe feet on slaves? How do you expect your players to read the rules when you didn't even read them yourself? No wonder there are so many issues in these sims and they only last three months tops.

While on the subject on rules, why do the slaves have to go to the "kennel" even if the slaver did not snag them? This takes away a big chunk of a theme in Gor. There was a reason there was a three week (hands, whatever) rule in the books for slaves who were taken. There literately was a capping game in the books. I know that I am in the minority of actually liking the books, with the exception of most of its narration but you guys are being a bunch of fun suckers. If someone doesn't want to deal with the influx of "slaves" coming into the sim, then all they have to do is "sell" her to the slaver or not take custody of her to begin with. Stop dictating every scenario. If the "city slaver" needs stock then he needs to get to "hiring" some "catchers" and get his own. I should be able to role play being stolen without people in my IM box about some stupid rule that doesn't even make any sense for the story if that is what I want to do. Don't sit here and tell me that I am none too powerful of getting out of any "situation" that I didn't want to be in. I am a grown adult and I don't suddenly turn into a gullible juvenile just because I logged into my "slave avatar."

:covereyes:
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Tantus
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:46 pm

Just have to accept SL Gor is for a different crowd now. Their new combat system integrates with social media so people receive updates on your raid activity. These are the sort of people in Gor now, with automated tweets flying around when they capture someone.

About the builds, BTB sims should go meterless and stop pretending to be raidable.
100% of a build is designed around defending raids, but when you account for it less than 1% of that sim's lifetime is taken by raids. Go meterless, design your sim around RP friendly locations and tell raiders to raid GE with their social media meters.

I may be wrong about it but I think BTB has turned into family roleplaying sims, in that everyone wants to join a big family. OOC/IC separation doesn't exist as many of these families are friends who travel RP genres together. The ambition of roleplayers isn't to conquer a city, to play out some scheme or excelling in some trait as it used to be. It's to be part of some family with funky, unreadable fonts depicting their family name.

And every family has that kooky slave who's like an anime character, it may be cute if you're watching a cartoon but it doesn't belong in Gor!

Processing an influx of slaves is a tricky balance, because they want roleplay and left to wander the streets with no direction at all will lead to complaints of a sim ignoring its slave-players. Introduction to a kennel and internal activity gives them a base to begin and build their story from. People will always complain about how this or that wasn't in the books but that isn't offering a solution. SL sims have considerations real Gor didn't, being that people don't(or shouldn't) live in the game, but somehow are expected to roleplay at full time hours.
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Lacey
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Lacey » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:09 pm

Tantus wrote:Just have to accept SL Gor is for a different crowd now. Their new combat system integrates with social media so people receive updates on your raid activity. These are the sort of people in Gor now, with automated tweets flying around when they capture someone.

About the builds, BTB sims should go meterless and stop pretending to be raidable.
100% of a build is designed around defending raids, but when you account for it less than 1% of that sim's lifetime is taken by raids. Go meterless, design your sim around RP friendly locations and tell raiders to raid GE with their social media meters.

I may be wrong about it but I think BTB has turned into family roleplaying sims, in that everyone wants to join a big family. OOC/IC separation doesn't exist as many of these families are friends who travel RP genres together. The ambition of roleplayers isn't to conquer a city, to play out some scheme or excelling in some trait as it used to be. It's to be part of some family with funky, unreadable fonts depicting their family name.

And every family has that kooky slave who's like an anime character, it may be cute if you're watching a cartoon but it doesn't belong in Gor!

Processing an influx of slaves is a tricky balance, because they want roleplay and left to wander the streets with no direction at all will lead to complaints of a sim ignoring its slave-players. Introduction to a kennel and internal activity gives them a base to begin and build their story from. People will always complain about how this or that wasn't in the books but that isn't offering a solution. SL sims have considerations real Gor didn't, being that people don't(or shouldn't) live in the game, but somehow are expected to roleplay at full time hours.


Except the players who need that base can go and have that base while people who are already engaged in a story can have their story without breaking a rule. How would you like someone hopping in your box to mess up your story because the OOC rules dictate that you must do a specific thing? The solution is a lot easier than all that competitiveness you just made it sound. I just gave perfectly good solutions to any of these problems if someone does not want/cannot RP with any specific person. They could certainly "sell" to the "kennels." Forcing them to hand over what they just chased down themselves or RPed with and liked because OOC rules is ridiculous and has nothing to do with "slave role players complaining of being ignored."
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:02 pm

If you mean a scenario where a slave enters a sim and starts roleplaying with someone who decides to take her. Then a mod tell them 'No', because she should have gone to the kennels first, then I agree it's over-moderating people's roleplay.

Though sims have these rules to protect slaves from opportunists who will collar everything in sight, then dump her a day later. Someone, somewhere, has to deal with these heartbroken slaves so they slam these rules in place to prevent it.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:23 pm

If some day I decided to bother again with a Gorean sim, I would have a state kennel, that every slave player could join, freely. They would have just to wear a state slave tunic, then, would be free to go to RP as they want in the city, to interact with people, in pretending to be owned by the state.
The slaver would be a NPC.
And I would allow again, the NPC masters, without limit of time.

Else, you can build the best of sims, with a perfect lore, you can have a sim wide storyline that people can use to build their own stories, you can create intrigues, plots, etc. That will work for a few months, your traffic will be high, and of course, your sim will drag excellent RPers, the para-RP ones, those who are very familiar with the RP etiquettes, who won't mix IC and OOC.
But this kind of player base never stays for years in a sim... As soon as some other RP sim opens, with a new theme (fantasy, Sci-fi, goth...), they join it and their time in your Gorean one become shorter, until you stop seeing them. Every 3 or 4 months, their interest evolves, changes, they want to try something new.

If you and other admins put a lot of work and energy in the sim and its events, comes a moment, as well, where you realize you need a break...

And so, less 6 months after its opening, you decide to close your sim. But I don't think it should be seen as something negative, as for some months, everyone got fun. So, just a good experience.


Tantus wrote:If you mean a scenario where a slave enters a sim and starts roleplaying with someone who decides to take her. Then a mod tell them 'No', because she should have gone to the kennels first, then I agree it's over-moderating people's roleplay.

Though sims have these rules to protect slaves from opportunists who will collar everything in sight, then dump her a day later. Someone, somewhere, has to deal with these heartbroken slaves so they slam these rules in place to prevent it.

I have a hard time with this kind of rule... I even find it insulting... If I play a slave character, I'm an adult, I want to be considered like an adult. I don't want special rules to protect my little heart from being broken. I'm an adult woman, I can take care of myself. Sim owner + admins, don't have to deal with people's personal feelings. You provide a RP place, not a nursery school... People, whatever their role, should be expected to deal their relationships with maturity, like adults. If a slave player is dumped a day later by the guy who collared her char, it's definitely only her problem, not the sim owner's problem. She is an adult woman, not a little girl who needs protection.
I'm really tired of these insulting rules which make the slave players look like kids who need to be nursed and guided, as if they were not adult people able to take care of themselves.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:16 am

Sasi wrote:Else, you can build the best of sims, with a perfect lore, you can have a sim wide storyline that people can use to build their own stories, you can create intrigues, plots, etc. That will work for a few months, your traffic will be high, and of course, your sim will drag excellent RPers, the para-RP ones, those who are very familiar with the RP etiquettes, who won't mix IC and OOC.
But this kind of player base never stays for years in a sim... As soon as some other RP sim opens, with a new theme (fantasy, Sci-fi, goth...), they join it and their time in your Gorean one become shorter, until you stop seeing them. Every 3 or 4 months, their interest evolves, changes, they want to try something new.


Excellent writers who can emote with the best of them are prone to emotions, metagaming and IC/OOC crossing as any other roleplayer, to believe otherwise is a fantasy of the perfect human.

Infact, I'd estimate those who consider themselves the 'elite' roleplayers and the epitome of RP etiquette, usually live in little cliques who congratulate one another for being the best roleplayers they know. A system of validation forms through which they can't see the bullshit, they won't see their metagaming, or how every IC action is driven by OOC agreement and communication within their clique.

People who are 'good emoters' often suffer from appalling RP etiquettes. It is nothing new, way back when SL Gor was the place to roleplay, there were groups of 'elite' RP'ers who kept among themselves and I often didn't engage with as I found them less immersed and inventive than regular roleplayers who really lived in the moment.

if you can name a sim with such roleplayers then I will believe you. Para-emoters who don't metagame, cross IC/OOC or any number of infractions... just.. don't... exist. It's a myth people add in their profiles to feel better about themselves.



Sasi wrote:Though sims have these rules to protect slaves from opportunists who will collar everything in sight, then dump her a day later. Someone, somewhere, has to deal with these heartbroken slaves so they slam these rules in place to prevent it.
I have a hard time with this kind of rule... I even find it insulting... If I play a slave character, I'm an adult, I want to be considered like an adult. I don't want special rules to protect my little heart from being broken. I'm an adult woman, I can take care of myself. Sim owner + admins, don't have to deal with people's personal feelings. You provide a RP place, not a nursery school... People, whatever their role, should be expected to deal their relationships with maturity, like adults. If a slave player is dumped a day later by the guy who collared her char, it's definitely only her problem, not the sim owner's problem. She is an adult woman, not a little girl who needs protection.
I'm really tired of these insulting rules which make the slave players look like kids who need to be nursed and guided, as if they were not adult people able to take care of themselves.


Anyone who's roleplayed in BTB has probably faced the moment a friend IM's you and says, a really nice girl she knows was just dumped by her owner. Now she's so lost and upset and this girl asks if you would collar her friend for a week?

My response was always... Fuck no. It's not that I'm insensitive about these things, I just don't believe sensitive people should be in Gor. So I was always of the opinion that sims shouldn't need an entire infrastructure for managing their slaves. All you need is a paga-den, some alcoves and if a slave cannot deal with it she doesn't belong.

But - I have friends who run sims, and the amount of stray-abandoned-upset and crying slaves they get in their IMs is amazing. Should they ignore the slave-plight, they're accused of being a sim who doesn't cater to slave-roleplayers, a sim that's marginalising their slave-population and infringing upon their roleplayer-rights. People who are better than I, care enough to build these kennels and systems of inducting and engaging their slave-players. It's one of those situations where you'll criticised if you do, and bitched at if you don't.

There are no easy solutions but to have a paga den and alcoves and if it's beneath some roleplayer's slave-standards she can hop to another sim.

P.S. I haven't seen a paga den on a Gorean sim in many years! :fryingpan:
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Leah » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:41 pm

Tantus wrote:Para-emoters who don't metagame, cross IC/OOC or any number of infractions... just.. don't... exist. It's a myth people add in their profiles to feel better about themselves.


Perhaps not in SL, but they absolutely do exist elsewhere.



Tantus wrote:Anyone who's roleplayed in BTB has probably faced the moment a friend IM's you and says, a really nice girl she knows was just dumped by her owner. Now she's so lost and upset and this girl asks if you would collar her friend for a week?

My response was always... Fuck no. It's not that I'm insensitive about these things, I just don't believe sensitive people should be in Gor. So I was always of the opinion that sims shouldn't need an entire infrastructure for managing their slaves. All you need is a paga-den, some alcoves and if a slave cannot deal with it she doesn't belong.

But - I have friends who run sims, and the amount of stray-abandoned-upset and crying slaves they get in their IMs is amazing. Should they ignore the slave-plight, they're accused of being a sim who doesn't cater to slave-roleplayers, a sim that's marginalising their slave-population and infringing upon their roleplayer-rights. People who are better than I, care enough to build these kennels and systems of inducting and engaging their slave-players. It's one of those situations where you'll criticised if you do, and bitched at if you don't.

There are no easy solutions but to have a paga den and alcoves and if it's beneath some roleplayer's slave-standards she can hop to another sim.


I think the objection is more that new players portraying slaves are often told they must join those particular paga dens or state slave kennels. Personally, I don't need someone else policing my roleplay. I swear, I can handle my RP all by my lonesome. I'm a grown woman - I'll be ok! :roll:

P.S. I haven't seen a paga den on a Gorean sim in many years! :fryingpan:


There was one in the last incarnation of Turia that I saw. It was actually rather nice.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Sasi » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:53 pm

It is true, Tantus, that these advanced rpers (I prefer the term "advanced" over "elite") tend to form cliques.

But I swear I experienced with those people far less breaches to the RP etiquettes and IC/OOC mixing. Those who play a slave will easily emote an NPC owner, for example. They will take initiatives.
Yes, issues do happen, I remember a woman who freaked out in my IMs because she required the position of ambassador for her char, and I told that no, it would be totally unrealistic to send a female scribe as ambassador, for a war mission, when some cities would be required to bend knee to the one my character ran and provide supplies... That was a mission for high ramked warriors. The woman left the sim with her little crow.
These people, tend to be very demanding in resources (house, prims, role) and as I said, their interest for a sim seldom lasts more 6 months.

But as ex sim owner, admin, mod of a dozen of sims, these last years, the real problems regarding the mix of IC and OOC, the metagaming, godmodding, happened with these so called "old Gor" people, seldom para-rpers, who tended to forget they were not their character.

And definitely, sensitive people are not a sim owner's problem. OOC structures for slave RPers should not exist. I, personally, find them demeaning, insulting for the typist who is normally a full grown person. Second, they encourage those who lack maturity, at taking responsibilities for their RP, their choices.
For this realson, I like the idea of state kennels with a NPC slaver. Especially when 99% of slaver RPers are just lame, unable to RP a training the way they are described in the books, mix IC and OOC.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:02 am

Leah wrote:
Tantus wrote:Para-emoters who don't metagame, cross IC/OOC or any number of infractions... just.. don't... exist. It's a myth people add in their profiles to feel better about themselves.


Perhaps not in SL, but they absolutely do exist elsewhere.


Are there legitimate roleplaying scenes outside of SL? I never did find anything substantial other than forums, where people seemed too young and inclined towards anime and vampire themes.

Everyone is a perfect roleplayer, until they are challenged. Then you'll discover what your character is capable of and what you, as a roleplayer, are incapable of.


Leah wrote:I think the objection is more that new players portraying slaves are often told they must join those particular paga dens or state slave kennels. Personally, I don't need someone else policing my roleplay. I swear, I can handle my RP all by my lonesome. I'm a grown woman - I'll be ok! :roll:


That is exactly the situation, there are still new people entering SL Gor, players who need some guidance. If you wanted to volunteer your time as a mentor or slaver in a popular city, they could do away with the kennels. All you'd have to do is spend 12+ hours of your day online, roleplaying with new arrivals, teaching them all they need to know and tomorrow you can do it all over again.

If this situation isn't tempting you then why would you think someone else would do so?
Just because you or Sasi know your RP, doesn't mean others do too. These systems form because they're better than having nothing at all. And for an experienced roleplayer it should be as simple to surpass as beating your way out of a paper bag.
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Re: Tips for upcoming sims (cause I know they keep coming).

Postby Tantus » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:52 am

Sasi wrote:It is true, Tantus, that these advanced rpers (I prefer the term "advanced" over "elite") tend to form cliques.

But I swear I experienced with those people far less breaches to the RP etiquettes and IC/OOC mixing. Those who play a slave will easily emote an NPC owner, for example. They will take initiatives.


It's as I suspected, you don't actually roleplay in GoT:ROIAF yourself. Or you would have experienced the wealth of issues from 'advanced' roleplayers too. I think it's worse from an RP sim as that one, which many touted as the epitome of roleplaying but eventually collapsed from successive rounds of dramatic behaviour.


Sasi wrote:Yes, issues do happen, I remember a woman who freaked out in my IMs because she required the position of ambassador for her char, and I told that no, it would be totally unrealistic to send a female scribe as ambassador, for a war mission, when some cities would be required to bend knee to the one my character ran and provide supplies... That was a mission for high ramked warriors. The woman left the sim with her little crow.
These people, tend to be very demanding in resources (house, prims, role) and as I said, their interest for a sim seldom lasts more 6 months.


But as ex sim owner, admin, mod of a dozen of sims, these last years, the real problems regarding the mix of IC and OOC, the metagaming, godmodding, happened with these so called "old Gor" people, seldom para-rpers, who tended to forget they were not their character.


Again, you roleplay with some strange people. These are the sorts I wouldn't have welcomed into a sim I was admin'ing, because SL Gor is a small community and you get to know everyone, the lifestylers, the weirdos and those who're barely tolerable. Maybe I fit into the final category myself, it depends on who you ask, as I will always hold the title of having been banned from 20 BTB sims in a single day 8-)

These noobs today have to grief sims, all I did was roleplay.

Sasi wrote:And definitely, sensitive people are not a sim owner's problem. OOC structures for slave RPers should not exist. I, personally, find them demeaning, insulting for the typist who is normally a full grown person. Second, they encourage those who lack maturity, at taking responsibilities for their RP, their choices.
For this realson, I like the idea of state kennels with a NPC slaver. Especially when 99% of slaver RPers are just lame, unable to RP a training the way they are described in the books, mix IC and OOC.


High traffic sims have issues unique to them where everyone is being overwhelmed and burns out sooner. Maybe the slavers have the most pressure off all. I don't envy these guys their roleplaying, being surrounded by naked slaves may have sounded fun... but the reality soon hits them. It's easy to be on a forum and criticise their performance, but you need to be there to understand all of what they're facing. Grown, intelligent women aren't expected to roll around the kennel hay. Take it as a personal RP challenge for your character to break free from the kennel, I don't see why it's insulting for a slave-character to begin on the lowest rung.

A low-mid traffic sim is the most productive for characters to ply their trade with sufficient time for personal RP'ing too. It's just hard to keep your sim in the mid-range as it'll either shoot up, or collapse down.

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