Porno Young Adult fiction

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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Oor » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:26 am

I think, Theo, you're a little too enamoured with the ridiculous line we're fed that there's some magical (ever later) line that a human being crosses, where they transform instantly from child to adult. Whether it's 14, 16, 18, 21, whatever (ymmv).

There's info out there - lots of it - that heavily suggests that the more children, teens and young adults know about sex - both the physical and the emotional side of it - the more likely they are to practice safe sex, the less likely they are to become pregnant (or get someone pregnant) at a very early age, and the more healthy their general attitude will be to sex as they get older. And the emotional side of sex is not "you meet someone, fall in love, then get married and have sex", nor is it "you should only ever have sex with someone you're in love with" nor is it "you should only ever have sex with someone you're in a long term relationship with". Sometimes it's about erections slipping in, clits being rubbed, and cusses being uttered.

While some people might prefer it if young people waited until they were 21 and had sex with someone they'd been with for 3 years, surrounded by candles and rose petals, nothing good ever came of only preparing people for a (very subjective) idealistic life.

Maybe you can't imagine your 14, 15 or 16 year-old self reading something like this, but my 14 year-old self was already sexually active. Your 17 year-old self could have joined the military and been sent abroad as political war fodder to be shot at and (possibly) killed or maimed. Seems a bit odd, in light of that, to get apoplectic about "fuck" or "clit" or "erection".

It's also worth noting that age of consent laws draw a very arbitrary line that can get consenting, fully aware young (male in particular) people into a lot of trouble - some of it that can literally destroy their lives - under the guise of child welfare. In a world where our media likes to propagandise us into believing there's a paedophile, terrorist or mega-corporation goon hiding around every corner, it's not any wonder that people accept that reasoning - but the laws (that used to stand at much younger ages) were changed across the Western world during an earlier puritanical era (19th C) and have started being raised again in various places in recent years, in response to an ever increasing concern that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE about an ever decreasing problem (child sex abuse). The person MOST likely to end up on a sex offenders registry with their life destroyed for having sex with a 14-or-15 year-old girl is her 16, 17 or 18 year-old boyfriend. IMO the collateral is not worth the infinitesimally small benefit, and the law has no bearing (nor consideration for) the sexual behaviours of young people in the real world.

I'm not a mom yet, but I have a sister 18 years younger than me who's 13 now, and who will soon be at the age I was when I lost my virginity. She shows a lot of the same precocious, anti-authoritarian personality quirks that I had as a young teen/adult, and if she's going to end up fucking someone next year I'd rather she go into it safely, armed with condoms and information, not expecting a fanfare or an orgasm, knowing exactly what will happen (including erections, hips moving, clits and fucks) and knowing that she can say 'no' and walk away at any time she wants to.

I also don't believe that these words "clit" or "erection" or "fuck" have some sort of evil magical power. You say that you'd be fine with less explicit language - euphemism, presumably - that would conjure the same (possibly less accurate owing to lack of foreknowledge) image in the mind of the young reader. That's very odd, to me.

So in conclusion, no, I wouldn't have any issue with my children (or younger relatives) reading this material. On the contrary, I'd prefer they were exposed to sex through avenues other than (or additional to) the porn they will undoubtedly be exposed to during their lives. I'd also like them to be able to speak to me openly about sex (my sister can - my own kids may be another story, but will hopefully be able to speak to my sister!), not see it as something embarrassing and gross, and go into it informed about mechanics, expectations, consent and safety. I don't think that's an attempt to be a "cool" mom. I think it's an attempt to be a responsible one.
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby juelles » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:47 am

I wish there was a like button. :)
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Glaucon » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:01 pm

:yeahthat: at everything Oor (who no doubt has me on foe) said above.
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Theoden » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:47 am

Oor wrote:I think, Theo, you're a little too enamoured with the ridiculous line we're fed that there's some magical (ever later) line that a human being crosses, where they transform instantly from child to adult. Whether it's 14, 16, 18, 21, whatever (ymmv).



Not really. Whenever there's articles about underage sex going on I always am irritated when the article calls teenagers 'children'. As you said, there is no magical line between below 18 and over 18 that turns them into adults, and the legal line is entirely arbitrary. there would be three categories... children, teenagers, and adults.

Oor wrote:There's info out there - lots of it - that heavily suggests that the more children, teens and young adults know about sex - both the physical and the emotional side of it - the more likely they are to practice safe sex, the less likely they are to become pregnant (or get someone pregnant) at a very early age, and the more healthy their general attitude will be to sex as they get older. And the emotional side of sex is not "you meet someone, fall in love, then get married and have sex", nor is it "you should only ever have sex with someone you're in love with" nor is it "you should only ever have sex with someone you're in a long term relationship with". Sometimes it's about erections slipping in, clits being rubbed, and cusses being uttered.

While some people might prefer it if young people waited until they were 21 and had sex with someone they'd been with for 3 years, surrounded by candles and rose petals, nothing good ever came of only preparing people for a (very subjective) idealistic life.

Maybe you can't imagine your 14, 15 or 16 year-old self reading something like this, but my 14 year-old self was already sexually active. Your 17 year-old self could have joined the military and been sent abroad as political war fodder to be shot at and (possibly) killed or maimed. Seems a bit odd, in light of that, to get apoplectic about "fuck" or "clit" or "erection".



Wellllllll I'd be okay if a 16 year old to 18 year old read the books I posted. Its the early teens that worry me though, and I feel like if they cannot see a rated R movie by themselves, they shouldn't be exposed to rated R language in books.

Just because certain teenagers have sex at 13 or so doesn't mean the vast majority of teenagers also do it at that age as well. I'm pretty sure in the US the majority of people lose their virginities in their late teens, around 16. Of course, it would depend a lot on demographics, education, income, areas, culture, but the majority of people lose their virginities in their late teens.

I don't get why the majority of young teens 13 14 15 should have to be exposed to explicit material, just because a minority of young teens 13 14 15 are having sex already. It is urging the majority on, while they are not ready.

And although there might be some bookstores that have separate sections of young teens to older teens, the bookstores I've seen just lump the entire 12-18 category all on one section. This would lead to a lot of premature exposure.

Oor wrote:

It's also worth noting that age of consent laws draw a very arbitrary line that can get consenting, fully aware young (male in particular) people into a lot of trouble - some of it that can literally destroy their lives - under the guise of child welfare. In a world where our media likes to propagandise us into believing there's a paedophile, terrorist or mega-corporation goon hiding around every corner, it's not any wonder that people accept that reasoning - but the laws (that used to stand at much younger ages) were changed across the Western world during an earlier puritanical era (19th C) and have started being raised again in various places in recent years, in response to an ever increasing concern that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE about an ever decreasing problem (child sex abuse). The person MOST likely to end up on a sex offenders registry with their life destroyed for having sex with a 14-or-15 year-old girl is her 16, 17 or 18 year-old boyfriend. IMO the collateral is not worth the infinitesimally small benefit, and the law has no bearing (nor consideration for) the sexual behaviours of young people in the real world.



Well yes. Something must be done, even if it is an ever decreasing problem. Because even one case is too much.

Obviously it's ridiculous to have a 16 year old boy be in trouble for screwing his 15 year old girlfriend, in states where 16 is the age of consent.

However, I have seen some laws that are more nuanced, like, if under 16, the couple must be within three years of each other, with 12 minimum. So say, girlfriend is 12, and boyfriend is 15. Or girlfriend is 14, and boyfriend is 17. I'm not sure the exact numbers or law but I'm pretty sure the 'within so and so years' nuance in laws exist.

Oor wrote:
I'm not a mom yet, but I have a sister 18 years younger than me who's 13 now, and who will soon be at the age I was when I lost my virginity. She shows a lot of the same precocious, anti-authoritarian personality quirks that I had as a young teen/adult, and if she's going to end up fucking someone next year I'd rather she go into it safely, armed with condoms and information, not expecting a fanfare or an orgasm, knowing exactly what will happen (including erections, hips moving, clits and fucks) and knowing that she can say 'no' and walk away at any time she wants to.



If you keep her busy with extracurriculars, restrict her from visiting certain friends houses , vetting her friends, installing internet filters in the home, working with likeminded mothers who also install internet filters in their home and only allow them to visit those homes, keep them busy with adult supervised after school activities.... enforce curfew, know where your kid is, install a GPS tracker on her smart phone, install software to disable texting, sexting, and the camera...

I'm pretty sure you can keep her from having sex until she's ready in the later teens. You don't have to just give up and settle for something lower.

The effort it takes to give them condoms and give them a 1 hour talk about sex, consent and emphasizing again and again that sex is fun and healthy, of course, is the easy route. Doing what I suggested is the harder and much time consuming route

Were I a young teen I would have probably been rather pissed at all the controls I have suggested. I was also rather anti-authority. But as an adult I realize there are certain things that could take some waiting on, to ensure one is truly ready for something instead of being pushed into it by peer pressure.

I feel like simply saying 'oh they're bound to get exposed to it anyway' is a cop out. One can always make more effort to shield someone growing up so they could come to terms to it on their own.

It's like the media yelling about violent video games causing their teenage sons to be violent. Hello? Who buys them these rated M for mature games? Rated M for mature games are the equivalent of rated R movies. If your kid has access to rated R movies or rated M for mature games, you need to be a responsible parent and lock them away in a cabinet or only allow your kids to visit their friends if you have vetted their friends and have seen their friend's parent's parenting style (like minded parenting, responsible parenting).

As for TV, there's always age ratings and you can restrict things. There is parental controls for everything. TV, computers, smart phones. There's parental controls with meeting with like minded responsible parents at the PTA and ensuring if your kid is going to a friends house it will be in a house where they won't be exposed to anything. And if its not at their house or their friends house, then they would be at school sponsored after school activities or adult supervised extracurricular activities like sports and what not.

Should they have zero sexual education? of course not. young teens should have the same dry sexual education that the rest of us got when we were 13 in biology class. and information about condoms as well, consent, etc.

Should we be shoving them condoms and say 'you're free to do whatever you want to do, follow your impulses'? I would say no. Guiding them to wait would be preferable. I'm not saying they should be abstinent til marriage. I'm saying maybe just wait a bit and not have such an intimate experience with someone you can't believe you lost your virginity to when you get older (e.g. 'i lost my virginity to bob from chem class... i think he works in a tire shop now...') Late teens is good? 20s is better?

Oor wrote:
I also don't believe that these words "clit" or "erection" or "fuck" have some sort of evil magical power. You say that you'd be fine with less explicit language - euphemism, presumably - that would conjure the same (possibly less accurate owing to lack of foreknowledge) image in the mind of the young reader. That's very odd, to me.



Well if you don't seem to have a problem with explicitness, then maybe you should write the ratings association for movies and tell them all their rated R movies should be PG movies and given to 13 year olds as presents. Because seeing the phrase 'shoving my erection and rubbing the length of it on the clit', is pretty much the same as seeing a non-explicit sex scene that would get a movie a rated R rating.


Oor wrote:So in conclusion, no, I wouldn't have any issue with my children (or younger relatives) reading this material. On the contrary, I'd prefer they were exposed to sex through avenues other than (or additional to) the porn they will undoubtedly be exposed to during their lives. I'd also like them to be able to speak to me openly about sex (my sister can - my own kids may be another story, but will hopefully be able to speak to my sister!), not see it as something embarrassing and gross, and go into it informed about mechanics, expectations, consent and safety. I don't think that's an attempt to be a "cool" mom. I think it's an attempt to be a responsible one.


I think young teenagers should be informed about mechanics, expectations , consent and safety. But I think this should all be done as a safety net, just in case they fail to restrain themselves. They shouldn't be given condoms and allowed porn (and book porn) and encouraged to do whatever their impulses direct them to do.
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Oor » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:28 pm

I think... I think my brain just literally melted. Caved in. Gave up. Kapoot!

I'll respond later after some sleep. And a bit more time to mull over whether I'd rather be parented by you or the collective Kims of North Korea. :P
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Rhett » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:18 pm

No one is forcing any teenager to read these sexually explicit books. I think this is where decent (not overprotective) parenting comes in. My philosophy is this...by the time your kid is 12 or 13 years old, you should have raised them to have open lines of communication with you about everything. And even then, they are still going to be exposed to things that you might not want them to be just yet. My mother was not perfect, but she raised me in a very open environment when it came to communication. She made sure that I felt comfortable talking to her about sex, drugs, etc. She was not in any way permissive of risky behavior and always reminded me that if I thought I was mature enough to have sex, I better think myself mature enough to handle the consequences that sex can bring upon a person (pregnancy, disease, etc.) I would argue that a more realistic style of parenting is going to raise children and teenagers into adults that are capable of making their own decisions and understanding the consequences of their behavior. I'm not one for installing all sorts of parental filters on my kids' technology either. I am more in favor of not giving my kids phones or computers of their own until they are old enough to understand the responsibilities of using such devices. I actually think that overprotective parenting is what causes, at least in part, kids who are repressed and end up being way more experimental and rebellious than kids who have parents who have open lines of communication. There is a difference between permissive and open parenting.
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Glaucon » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:30 pm

I am not sure that 'open lines of communication' are the answer. Some parents just don't have that in them. Some kids just don't have that in them either. Even within our society, where sex is an acceptable topic of talk-shows, teenagers often do not want to talk to their parents about this stuff, because it is too embarrassing to them. And teenagers start following the norms of their peer-group rather than those of their parents, at that stage, often.

To me, this holy quest our society has engaged in to protect teenagers from the evil world of 'the adult' is a bit like the prohibition on alcohol in the 30s in the US. Everyone can safely predict that it is going to fail and only going to cause more misery, but we keep at it anyway. Is there a 'danger' of kids getting in contact with adult stuff before they are ready for it? Probably, though it is hard to tell exactly what these evil consequences are, exactly. Generally, when they go actively looking for stuff like porn (or actively reading this 'adult fiction'), they are probably ready for it. What other indication of 'readiness' is there? The subjective judgement of protective parents, the tenants of religion or a society obsessed with the ideal of the innocent (which effectively means sexually repressed) teenager?

To me, it seems rather absurd: We feed our kids well, generally. As a consequence, they reach the age of sexual maturity earlier than they did in the past. At the same time, we seem to be increasing the age of consent and increased penalties for those that cross this re-enforced boundary (and yes, that does seem to include prison sentences and lasting criminal records stating child-abuse even in cases were the age-difference was just a few years, from what I read).

Pedophiles that prey on children and seek to have sex with them or adults that make use of their authority and power to force kids into sex because they are conveniently close-by? Stamp on them, sure. Make the ones that do it because it seems convenient think twice, given the consequences. And those true pedophiles that cannot be cured? Let them have fap-material as long as the creation of it did not involve any actual abused children to get their perv on. Give them council and keep an eye on them, rather than chase them from their homes, forcing them to go underground or move away, without any monitoring. To me, that would appear to be the smarter course of action if we really want them to ensure they are not actually trying to have sex with kids, if we are serious about avoiding this sort of thing rather than engaging in the enjoyable past-time of witch-hunting.

But other than that, be realistic. There are thirteen year old girls that are going to have consensual sex with 19 year old boys. Sure, adults should know that 'some fruit' is forbidden, but 19 year olds are not known for caring too much about societies rules. There are 14 year old boys that are going to use the services of a 30 year old prostitute. Sure, that prostitute should turn the teenager away, but prostitutes are not known for sticking to the letter of the law, given that their profession is illegal itself, in most places. And so forth. Are these boys and girls all going to be scarred for life? I really doubt it. It is human nature, human instinct. You can try to guide it a bit, try to keep a human instinct that is inconvenient for society (because our society/economy isn't well served with 12 and thirteen year olds dropping out of school to become parents and would-be providers and you probably don't want that for your kid) from causing too much mayhem, but that is about it.

So, I'd say: Try to make sure that you install a sufficient amount of prudence and common sense into your kids BEFORE they become proper teenagers (at which point they will probably stop listening to you much). Make sure they already know about the birds and the bees and about the most obvious risks. And have some condoms around the house, for them to 'borrow' without you noticing it. Doing so is not 'encouraging them to have sex'. There will be plenty of encouragement coming from their hormones, most likely. Having a few condoms in an accessible spot won't make a difference.
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Theoden » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:06 pm

Open lines of communication should be encouraged and I think it would go side by side with engaged parenting (what some in this thread call over protective or Kim Jong Un parenting). Of course, it depends on the teen of course, as Glaucon said, some might just want to not speak about certain things. But it should be attempted just in case.

Open lines of communication doesn't mean 'go do what you want, here's some condoms, lemme know what you do'. It means 'You shouldn't do this this this, but we'll still love you if you do, but it's not good for you just yet, but tell us if you do do it we won't be mad'.

As for readiness, there's a difference between physical readiness (obviously the horniness and seeking out of porn and lit erotica) and emotional readiness. One must be at an age where the mind is able to process the emotional effects of intimacy. When you have such intimacy for the first few times you bond with a person (at least most people) who will probably go away and you won't be with anymore (at that stage of life). Such emotional turmoil would interfere with academics and certain behavioral development.

There have already been studies where young male teens (12 to 14 ish) exposed to porn at a young age are more emotionally detached from women and sometimes more misogynistic, viewing them as objects rather than persons. This contributes to objectification of women and the rape culture, if not immediately counter-acted with education about consent (which few sex education courses teach). Even if the parent immediately educates the kid about consent, one wonders which would win out... the porn and objectification, or the parent trying to teach them what consent is and to view women as people. These are two forces diametrically opposed to each other, and the brains of young male teens are still developing at that age and wiring. If the wrong force wins out, you will have lasting damage in behavior.

Engaged hands on parenting leads to more highly achieving children entering the top schools, and tend on average to lead a better life economic wise. I don't think sex should be shamed or 'repressed', but rather talked about frankly, not as a negative, but emphasizing the consequences of such actions, show them people who have suffered the consequences of such actions (teen moms), and show them the long term path to a better and more prosperous life. At the same time, tell them that even if they do things anyway (despite your best efforts to keep them busy with supervised extracurriculars/visiting approved households/know where your kids are) that you still love them and won't be upset.

It's not about avoiding mistakes/failures (of which the teen might clam up and just keep quiet about). It's about positively encouraging them to take the best course, rather than giving them some info/condoms and having a laissez faire attitude about it.

And of course, there is the economic readiness, as Glaucon stated. They should have sex if they are able to accept the consequences and responsibilities. That means being able to financially support parenthood, or medical expenses for possible STDs. You shouldn't have sex if the possible negative consequences would be paid by your parents or by the state.

In todays society, you need a high school education for a minimum wage job, and a college education if you want 30k to 40k right out of college (unless you're in the STEM fields or in the ivy league). If you cannot financially support an action, then you are not truly responsible or handling the consequences of an action: other people are.

Of course, if you follow this line of logic, one must not have sex until they are in their 20s, which would be rather unrealistic. At the same time, if you have them delay to have sex until they are in their late teens, they would be closer to earning a High School diploma rather than in their early teens, and would be former would be preferable.
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Oor » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:16 pm

Theoden wrote:some in this thread call over protective or Kim Jong Un parenting


That wasn't some - that was me!

Still planning to respond, but I've managed to pull my rotator cuff. Which means it hurts like a motherfucker to mouse.

We seem to have moved on to the "porn is harmful" and "rape culture" fantasies that are invented and perpetuated by ideologues now, so it might take a bit longer. Though the studies that "prove" such things are so obviously methodologically flawed maybe it's not necessary? idk.
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Re: Porno Young Adult fiction

Postby Glaucon » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:31 pm

Theoden wrote:Of course, if you follow this line of logic, one must not have sex until they are in their 20s, which would be rather unrealistic. At the same time, if you have them delay to have sex until they are in their late teens, they would be closer to earning a High School diploma rather than in their early teens, and would be former would be preferable.


The last bit is also fairly unrealistic, for the most part, clearly, for most teenagers. So... realistically, there is a very high chance that teenagers are going to have sex, whether they are 18 or 13.

Hence those condoms...

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