When does it become a crime?

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Glaucon
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Glaucon » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:24 pm

Pelopidas wrote:On another note, if this guy was my roomate id move out :P and even if he is convicted i dont think we have to overeact and be scared that this is a sign of a new age where people are convicted for their fantasies no, that's just overblown insecurity in my view. You should have some more faith on our democratic societies. One case doesnt indicate a paradigm shift.


People being convicted of murder because they browse the internet for kinky or sick porn isn't really what I am worried about. It being considered okay to put the private stuff someone does behind their PC that is not harming anyone in any obvious way out in the public sphere and the media really digging into it is, because there is some angle, some 'excuse' for saying it is in the public interest (because someone MIGHT carry out a fantasy, or MIGHT be vulnerable to blackmail, and so forth) IS a real concern, I feel. Unlike the right not to be put in prison without actually doing anything and the right not to be murdered, I do feel that the right to privacy is under thread, in modern western democracies. And even if the vast majority of us escape public scrutiny because we aren't interesting enough, I feel the right to privacy deserves to be respected.
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Leah » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:05 pm

Oor wrote:You state yourself that "the vast majority of people who have such fantasies never act on violent ones" - thus it is difficult to know, certainly impossible to state with any sort of confidence - that an intensification of fantasy is necessarily a causal factor in a person who harbors murderous fantasies acting out on them, even if there is a tenuous correlation in known serial killers. So this is an entirely unacceptable basis (in my opinion) upon which to put a human being in a cage.


Well, I never said it was a good reason. The fact that he has a fantasy alone really can't be brought up in court. I know that in the US, someone having violent fantasies cannot even be confined longer than...like..maybe 24-48 hours...unless they break the law. Once they break the law, they can charge them for whatever law they broke.

Like I said in the first place, I'm concerned because he seems to have been taking real-world steps towards being able to enact his fantasy. But all they really have a case for is like, invasion of privacy and maybe stalking. He didn't actually do anything with the information. I do not, personally, understand the charge of attempted murder, or even conspiracy to commit.
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Leah » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:07 pm

Oor wrote:This article's quite good IMO, especially the conclusion (emphasis mine):

I think Daly underestimates our imaginations. Or perhaps I’m just jaded by being an early adopter of the Internet. I went ahead and visited Dark Fetish Network (which I won’t link to, and it should go without saying is not safe for work unless part of your job allows you to research porn for journalistic purposes). After a few minutes of looking at the page, full of references to sex, death, and sadomasochism, I simply shrugged. This stuff is all over the Internet. If Valle is particularly unique, it’s in the possibility that he may have been working to make his fantasy a reality. The fantasy itself is not a new thing. It even has an entry in the Urban Dictionary under “vore.” And like every other off-kilter sexual fetish, you can find representations of it in Japanese manga should you care to look.

Not unlike the hand-wringing over video game violence, there’s not a lot of evidence that the online expression of dangerous or predatory sexual fantasies is an indication of real world intent. We should certainly be concerned that Valle may have been abusing his position to track women in real life as an expression of his fetish, but we should also be concerned that somebody could be convicted for the contents of his fantasies, as wretched as they may be.


I suppose that I just find it so far "out there" that there would even be a chance this guy would get convicted for murder based on internet searches. It's probably stalking, and almost certainly invasion of privacy, but it isn't attempted murder.

Edited to Add: Also, at the risk of sounding snobby, it's New York. They have some real control freaks in the government there. They even regulate what size drinks can be sold in NYC. >.> The mayor is off his rocker. So, I guess it DOESN'T entirely surprise me that they're trying to push this. I just don't think it's going to work. Like, at all.
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Glaucon
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Glaucon » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:21 pm

Oor wrote:I do not, personally, understand the charge of attempted murder, or even conspiracy to commit.


It is hard to understand. The thing they seem to be presenting as the most damning 'proof' of intent to murder is the RP-thing. Messages/posts left on these cannibalism places that talk about kidnapping. The guy and his lawyer claim this was just RP. But unlike our sort of RP, this sort of RP would appear to be the sort of RP without a mixture of IC and OOC separation. You know, the sort of RP many people engage in in IM's, in the greater SL beyond the more hard-core RP sims (where most players do distinguish IC and OOC talk, but which doesn't mean they actually 'take it to RL). So... I'd speculate that, maybe, the police and proscecution didn't really get that this was fantasy, not really real. So, I suppose they really thought he was going to do it (and who knows... maybe he was... can't be sure). And believing that, they decided to make a case out of it. Maybe.

But more cynically speaking, there is the 'reward'. They got to mount this big case, paid for by the tax-payer (and the person on trial, I guess), got to be on TV, all of that. And if the creepy guy is not convicted, they will probably not face any consequences.

As for this being New York... maybe there is something to that. Whatever one might think of the folks over in Arizona and all... I don't think you'd see a case like this, there.
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Leah » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:32 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Oor wrote:I do not, personally, understand the charge of attempted murder, or even conspiracy to commit.


It is hard to understand. The thing they seem to be presenting as the most damning 'proof' of intent to murder is the RP-thing. Messages/posts left on these cannibalism places that talk about kidnapping. The guy and his lawyer claim this was just RP. But unlike our sort of RP, this sort of RP would appear to be the sort of RP without a mixture of IC and OOC separation. You know, the sort of RP many people engage in in IM's, in the greater SL beyond the more hard-core RP sims (where most players do distinguish IC and OOC talk, but which doesn't mean they actually 'take it to RL). So... I'd speculate that, maybe, the police and proscecution didn't really get that this was fantasy, not really real. So, I suppose they really thought he was going to do it (and who knows... maybe he was... can't be sure). And believing that, they decided to make a case out of it. Maybe.

But more cynically speaking, there is the 'reward'. They got to mount this big case, paid for by the tax-payer (and the person on trial, I guess), got to be on TV, all of that. And if the creepy guy is not convicted, they will probably not face any consequences.

As for this being New York... maybe there is something to that. Whatever one might think of the folks over in Arizona and all... I don't think you'd see a case like this, there.


Now that you mention it, it does appear to be a political stunt. I do think they may be open to litigation, however, if they keep pushing and he's NOT convicted. I don't think his behavior falls under the limits of the charges they're trying to stick to him.
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby ... » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:35 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Oor wrote:I do not, personally, understand the charge of attempted murder, or even conspiracy to commit.


She did not.
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Leah » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:43 pm

Oor wrote:
Glaucon wrote:
Oor wrote:I do not, personally, understand the charge of attempted murder, or even conspiracy to commit.


She did not.


And I still don't!
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Pelopidas
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Pelopidas » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:32 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Pelopidas wrote:On another note, if this guy was my roomate id move out :P and even if he is convicted i dont think we have to overeact and be scared that this is a sign of a new age where people are convicted for their fantasies no, that's just overblown insecurity in my view. You should have some more faith on our democratic societies. One case doesnt indicate a paradigm shift.


People being convicted of murder because they browse the internet for kinky or sick porn isn't really what I am worried about. It being considered okay to put the private stuff someone does behind their PC that is not harming anyone in any obvious way out in the public sphere and the media really digging into it is, because there is some angle, some 'excuse' for saying it is in the public interest (because someone MIGHT carry out a fantasy, or MIGHT be vulnerable to blackmail, and so forth) IS a real concern, I feel. Unlike the right not to be put in prison without actually doing anything and the right not to be murdered, I do feel that the right to privacy is under thread, in modern western democracies. And even if the vast majority of us escape public scrutiny because we aren't interesting enough, I feel the right to privacy deserves to be respected.


If they believe, as they do, that he was going to act on those fantasies there is no right to privacy mate. At any case his own wife gave up his pc and fled terrorized, what was the police supposed to do? They needed to investigate. As for the right of privacy in western democracies i feel...facebook is more of a threat, not the prosecution of a guy who had plans to kill people and took some steps in what some people could consider as the realization of those plans.

Im no laywer, or a prosecutor, or a police officer, neither do i have all the material the police and the prosecution has, so i cant really tell what's going on. But i do get the feeling that this guy is getting more than the benefit of the doubt in this topic simply because, dunno, we also rp kinky fantasies?

Again, id have some more faith in the authorities till otherwise. It's a public trial anyway, we'll find out.

PS: And it seem's they got another guytoo!
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Glaucon » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:42 am

Sounds pretty witch-hunty to me. Let's roll up another international criminal ring of cannibals. That have never actually done anything, except talk.

And if someone (like the police) believing someone is guilty of something doesn't remove the right to privacy. Sure, that right might be ignored because other interests/rights take presecence. And if there is no conviction, then the argument might be that there was at least reasonable suspicion, justifying the suspension of that right to privacy. (Which is exactly what I am questioning... whether there is really enough of a reasonable suspicion here to justify a trial for attempted abduction and the related suspension of the right to privacy). I suppose that if the guy is not convicted, he could then go on and try to prove that he suffered damages as a result of the trial (which should be easy) and that he was tried and the right to privacy was suspended on unreasonable grounds (which might be harder) and seek financial compensation.

But i do get the feeling that this guy is getting more than the benefit of the doubt in this topic simply because, dunno, we also rp kinky fantasies?


Well, sure. I am a bit of a perv. Online, in SL, certainly. And I'd certainly not want everyone I know finding out what I have gotten up to in RP, because some folks would have a hard time understanding and it would give people the wrong impression of me. People might think I am a rapist or worse. Or just a really weird Nerd. Which I may be, but I don't especially want everyone to know that. :mrgreen:

So, bias... sure. But legally, everyone gets the benefit of the doubt. Habeas corpus, innocent until proven guilty, all that. And the police have a (rather complicated) duty to be fair and use their discretionary powers wisely and NOT put people on trial and make stuff public that will harm the reputation of a suspect when it should be clear to them that they don't have the evidence to secure a conviction. Three people in jail in two different countries... that seems a lot for a crime that might never have taken place (and my guess is, would never have taken place).
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Re: When does it become a crime?

Postby Leah » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:22 pm

I honestly can't blame the wife of the guy for going to the police and the FBI. I mean, if I found out my husband was talking about luring me to India, bleeding me out and then eating my corpse, I would freak the fuck out and go to the police, too.

Depending on how thorough his plans actually were (which should be able to be established from internet/computer records), they might actually get him on conspiracy to murder his wife. I don't know about the rest of it, though. It isn't attempted murder in any case because he never took any actions beyond looking up addresses/personal information.
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