The Luther Scrolls

Discussions about John Norman, and his books.

Have you heard of the Luther Scrolls? DId you ever read them? If so, what did you think of them?

Never heard of them.
2
3%
Never heard of them.
2
3%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 70
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:20 am

Overall I think the Luther Scrolls are "good to have" though. Even if there might be a bit of his own interpretations thrown in here and there, it often won't differ much from the unique interpretations that almost anyone makes from reading the books themselves, and what you then get confronted with in roleplay.

99% of the people that start RPing in Gor will -never- want to touch a book. So having summaries of certain broad topics is quite good.

It would've been even better if someone setup a Gor-wiki.

I particularly always liked the 'Treve' chapter he wrote. And having read Witness of Gor and Captive of Gor, I could recognize that most of the paragraphs he wrote in that chapter are pretty much just almost straight copies or paraphrased parts from descriptions in the books.
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Leah
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Leah » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:02 am

Morgus wrote:Tal, Leah ... Your post and profile just shores up some of what I touched upon ... SL Gor is not true role-play that is true to Gor ... your Home Stone does not exist on John Norman's Gor - but it does in your version of Gor ... as far as reading the books, many have not read them all ... if one has to go around with "cheater" cards what has he learned ... I've even seen a "master" brag that he had never read a single book, just picked up what he knew from others (and badly at that) ... many Gor role-players have real-life self-esteem issues that can be put aside when online ... here, wimps can be assholes; people who are bullied can be bullies; women who are in the shadows can be panthers or talunas or a bitchy Free Woman ... sure, Gor is a fantasy world, but it doesn't have to be destroyed by those who know not of which they speak ... if I were John Norman I'd tell Linden to do what the Herbert Foundation did to those who "played" Dune - take it down, as it is not the Gor he created, just a bastardized version that each individual tries to make his own, further distorting Gor for those who don't know, perpetuating the bad image that many have of Gor ... sure, I'm probably a little "overboard" with my attitude about Gor role-play, but not without reason ... as the saying goes - be Gorean or be gone; most online Gor role-play sites would be wastelands if that were actually enforced ... be well ...


Yeah, but it's a fantasy. It's just a game, or at least should be for the vast majority of RPers. Role Play, by definition, has nothing to do with real life and everything to do with a fantasy world. Sure, there are people who run around behaving like asshats, completely confused about what they're doing, but you're going to find that in any genre. It's the nature of the beast, really. A segment of those "noobs" is going to get it together, find out more about the series, and mend their ways. As for the rest, what does it hurt you for them to congregate on their own sims and enjoy their RP the way they want it, even if it in no way resembles your RP?

I mean, this thread was (at least from my reading) more about the issues of telling new players with little to no actual knowledge of Gor things that aren't actually in the books - i.e. "fanfiction" - and passing that of as "fact" from the books. The reality is that no matter what you do, you're going to end up with people who know next to nothing about the setting, and most of those aren't going to care one way or the other because they're having fun. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, as long as they stay where they're having fun and don't try to mess with my RP.
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If I won't put up with an in-character owner trying to control my OOC life, what makes you think I'll put up with you trying to do that?

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Mynerva
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Mynerva » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:49 am

Morgus wrote: ... sure, I'm probably a little "overboard" with my attitude about Gor role-play, but not without reason ....



What is the reason?

You have to realize - in sl gor today you will mostly meet just role players. They just want to role play and nothing deeper.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Conall » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:53 am

Mynerva wrote:
Morgus wrote: ... sure, I'm probably a little "overboard" with my attitude about Gor role-play, but not without reason ....



What is the reason?

You have to realize - in sl gor today you will mostly meet just role players. They just want to role play and nothing deeper.


Roleplayers, yes. But what do they roleplay ? It is not really gor anymore but just some kinky roleplay which includes some Masters and some Slaves, some BDSM, much kink and lots of fun which has to be safe, sane and consensual not only while being OOC but also IC or you are muted and/or FTBed or banned.
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Morgus
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Morgus » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:59 am

That is my reason - it is not Gor anymore, just rp-ers making their own Gor ... sure, "it's fantasy" and "it's only role play" and "they only want to role play and nothing deeper" ... and that's just it - they know nothing of Gor, only that it sounds like fun, and "wanna-be" "masters" can puff out their chests and play bad-ass and kick around slave girls ... it ain't Gor anymore, just another sandbox in which uninformed people play ...

JN knows of SL Gor but really nothing about it, except probably the bad:

"I know little or nothing about the "Second Life" site or sites. One thing I have heard is that large numbers of my books have been "pirated," and have been distributed freely amongst its members or participants. I would hope, of course, that that is not taking place. If one respects, or cares for, an author, and his work, it seems that one would be unwilling to engage in such a practice."

I would hope that people who cared about his work would protect his work and also care enough to protect his world and keep it in character enough so that it is recognizable. I didn't mean to imply that SL role play "sucked," ... sure there are Gor knowledgeable people that know better and those could better encourage others to follow the books and the world that JN created. It is such a vast work, richly developed with different cultures, flora, and fauna. It has become Disney Gor where girls can walk around with their pet larls and such. If that is your idea of Gor then you really don't care.

Be well ...
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Violetta Daviau » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:19 am

Morgus wrote:That is my reason - it is not Gor anymore, just rp-ers making their own Gor ... sure, "it's fantasy" and "it's only role play" and "they only want to role play and nothing deeper" ... and that's just it - they know nothing of Gor, only that it sounds like fun, and "wanna-be" "masters" can puff out their chests and play bad-ass and kick around slave girls ... it ain't Gor anymore, just another sandbox in which uninformed people play ...


Now that appears as if you proclaim that in order to experience a real Gor you need to go beyond roleplaying it. What a rather impossible claim!
In order to experience a "real Gor", you will not even succeed if you space travel as it does not exist, you will have to become a pile of structured letters in John Norman's next book.
No matter how lifestyle Gorean, hardcore or bedroom D/s you claim to be, you at max can roleplay a Gor as well, though you will never BE on Gor, you will never BE in a Gorean society, and your Kajira will never be your ultimative owned Gorean slave girl as earthen laws will strike through your plans at her will - or after you killed her perhaps, the state will go down at your throat. There is no real Gor, and doing hunnybunny Gor with one's married wife in RL is no inch a more intense experience than what good roleplayers can make in typing their imaginations and visions on a technical more or less limited platform. RL has its limits too, or do you consider that threatening a possible married kajira with the teeth of a sharp bulldog is as Gorean as a sleen?

There is absolutely no need, especially in SL, to have a slave player be owned by a master player in OOC or even RL surroundings to make a Gor more Gor - as it won't. It will make it more bedroom BDSM and D/s, nothing else.

Morgus wrote:JN knows of SL Gor but really nothing about it, except probably the bad:

"I know little or nothing about the "Second Life" site or sites. One thing I have heard is that large numbers of my books have been "pirated," and have been distributed freely amongst its members or participants. I would hope, of course, that that is not taking place. If one respects, or cares for, an author, and his work, it seems that one would be unwilling to engage in such a practice."

I would hope that people who cared about his work would protect his work and also care enough to protect his world and keep it in character enough so that it is recognizable. I didn't mean to imply that SL role play "sucked," ... sure there are Gor knowledgeable people that know better and those could better encourage others to follow the books and the world that JN created. It is such a vast work, richly developed with different cultures, flora, and fauna. It has become Disney Gor where girls can walk around with their pet larls and such. If that is your idea of Gor then you really don't care.

Be well ...


I fully agree with JN and hate pirating as well. Other than that, well, you find a lot of people in SL Gor that come for a lot of different reasons, including RL D/s partnermarketing, lifestyle Gor, and also RP. On this forum you find mostly very strong, experienced and longterm roleplayers, many of which have deep knowledge of the books either by reading them or getting loaded with topic attuned quotes for years to understand the flavor.

I would recommend to you that you care a bit more about your Gor experience, select far better with whom you play and whom you move your camera in a way to not have to endure their vision. The mute button helps as well to suppress such people babble.

It is not the Gor of the people who usually discuss here and discuss indepth, so you might consider to verbally attack right those people - doing so being obvious by going in on their words in quotes within your replies. While surely you are entitled to your opinions, thoughts and free speech (as any slave player is as well, btw, even a Gor lifestyler slave player since we are on earth still), your ramblings against longterm present roleplay focused people appears at best an amusing display of your own cluelessness about the surroundings you ramble about - no matter how Gor acknowledged you are.

And if you are other than Disney in your play, something else than a "wanna-be" "master", etc. stands to be proven by your skill to put your ways - in roleplay - into your avatar looks, technical attachments like AOs, outfits and emotes. I have met more than one claiming to be the super dom master, oh so manly man, who turned out to have aboslutely no balls in the RL pants, and if then not the RP skills and visual style to put his masterhood into a textbased, visuals supported gaming platform. In 6 or 7 years of online Gor, I have seen maybe a total of 6 or 7 men that in their play were any masterly, covering the feeling I got from masters whom I have read about in the books. And I am not one of those bratty slaves when playing one, but neither I want to put the entire strength in a male avatar's appearance and behavior anymore by my own play.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:01 am

I'm not sure if it is what Morgus means but Gor for me has never just been 'only' roleplay either. But not in the sense that I expect anything in the sense of OOC.

I see it more in a way of trying to understand and getting to experience a philosophy that is completely counter to modern morality. This is why I don't agree with the usual opinion of: 'all RP must be consensual and enjoyable'

For me roleplaying in Gor is about trying to create and experience a world or lifestyle that you can't experience in RL. A challenging and dangerous place where by making the wrong moves, if you're an immersive roleplayer, you could end up enslaved against your will or, if you manage to face the challenge, could rise to the higher echelons of whatever gorean society you're living in.

But this experience is pretty hard to find in SL Gor between the pure 'lolz it's just for funsies'-roleplayers, the 'tea party safe-Gor IC/OOC blenders' and those who ignore immersion and think that traveling from north to south should be possible in a teleport and that running to the docks is enough to escape back home.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby DarbyDollinger » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:22 am

Plenty of people complain about things like pet larls here, Morgus. Half the posts on this board would be people complaining about that sort of thing.

As for Gorean roleplay not being real Gor, well no. Most role players don't want to create real Gor, or "be Gorean" or anything like that. They just want to roleplay it.

There are role players that believe in the philosophy of the books, but they aren't the majority.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Violetta Daviau » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:47 am

Anarch Allegiere wrote:I'm not sure if it is what Morgus means but Gor for me has never just been 'only' roleplay either. But not in the sense that I expect anything in the sense of OOC.

I see it more in a way of trying to understand and getting to experience a philosophy that is completely counter to modern morality. This is why I don't agree with the usual opinion of: 'all RP must be consensual and enjoyable'

For me roleplaying in Gor is about trying to create and experience a world or lifestyle that you can't experience in RL. A challenging and dangerous place where by making the wrong moves, if you're an immersive roleplayer, you could end up enslaved against your will or, if you manage to face the challenge, could rise to the higher echelons of whatever gorean society you're living in.

But this experience is pretty hard to find in SL Gor between the pure 'lolz it's just for funsies'-roleplayers, the 'tea party safe-Gor IC/OOC blenders' and those who ignore immersion and think that traveling from north to south should be possible in a teleport and that running to the docks is enough to escape back home.


It does not make any difference what you want to feel in Gor or how you call it.
You want to "understand and getting to experience a philosophy that is completely counter to modern morality", while another may want to experience this "world of Gor with all it means and comes with it, including society, culture, way of thinking, tech level and its meanings" (which is about how I would call it as pure roleplayer). It is the same, it is and stays roleplay. You could even form a LARP group out in nearby forests, with a bunch of men and a few women who have cared for contraception and are open for rough BDSM sex, it is still roleplay.

Others come to Gor to experience either a D/s relation at all as they cannot find a partner for it in RL, or an even deeper, limitless D/s relation, the feeling of owning / being owned, the safety of doing what they would not dare (e.g. public nudity) in a surrounding that keeps their RL reputation clean and jail free. And all that best with a very handsome or ultra beautiful or cute character, looks they often cannot resemble in RL either. For those the surroundings of Gor as in Flora, Fauna, Building style, clothing etc. is rather generic, exchangeable. It just does not matter. Some people reduce the gaming platform on SL Gor sims to romance, pewpew, drinking tea/coffee/paga because they lack any skill or imagination to go beyond that, or a way to "be themselves on Gor", as cool as they want to be in their sayings and as clownlike they want to behave. Guess that is what Morgus meant as such not being Gor anymore.

In addition to that you have so strongly varying levels in RP skills, theme lore knowledge, imagination skills, logic skills, intelligence, style and other interests. You basically state some kind of sadness (which I feel likewise btw) because people do not give you your imagination, are not on your RP skill level or style, do not change their interest and reason for being there to your's or put their fun inferior to your fun. But who can say it is not upon you (and me) to adjust more to the maiority? The one that says that your (and my) fun is worth as much as their's, but while you can do romance, they appear often unable to do your ways - the topic about strong and weak links of a chain. Even that is relative though as it is on a game platform, and there must be concessions to it, the very basic differences of Gor and SL sims/Gor (e.g. Gor is not limited to sims, Gor does not only have 15.000 players or such). Also the perceptions of what is a valid concession to the platform and how far the imagined RP realism should go differ for all people.

Still though, vice versa, you gain fun from RP that is not needingly "consensual and enjoyable" for others, but who are you to plant your joy above others' while there are enough PvP shooters and MMORPGs out there in which you can down any quest spwan half-afk person 20 levels beneath you at your leisure. Roleplay still contains the word play, which indicated fun for those who do it. If one does not like Poker, they will not do it. If they do it, forced, it will not be a playing for them, but an enforced necessity.

I guess to attract the right people for one's own RP style is threefolded: ...
... to live it well visible also when it comes to own disadvantages and meaningful consequences, without bowing out by e.g. turning a cut throat, beheaded neck, into just a strong wound or something that happened to the poor soul aside you in the battle ranks - or, the classical, to bow out of enslavements the quick and easy way, especially as a man.
... find compromises that cater both when merging the concessions to the platform
... to seek players that are likeminded and stick with them exclusively
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Violetta Daviau » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:00 am

Anarch Allegiere wrote:I see it more in a way of trying to understand and getting to experience a philosophy that is completely counter to modern morality. This is why I don't agree with the usual opinion of: 'all RP must be consensual and enjoyable'


Addition... sorry...

As I learned to know you, you had about always been in a position of IC rank, now and then also OOC rank (admin etc.). That is surely based on your RP skill, activity, your theme knowledge and OOC knowledge of how to make a community big and successful. Your claim above and the style I experienced your play as was one of the hero of the story. To understrike your claims you learned to fight GM combat really well too as it is a commonly used tool to fell decisions in SL Gor, as unrealistic and flawed as that tool is. All that implies somehow that you desire to be the glorious or infame hero of your surroundings.

So the question others could ask is: "Why should you be there hero?"
You can well experience the non-consensual roleplay/philosophy and non-enjoyable times from a perspective that might be not enjoyable for yourself, e.g. as a kajirus. You can interact with others as kajirus, NPC guards preventing you to flee when those others are not online, play out the desperation of a Gorean man in such situation, do their works, obey for the last will to survive that is common for Gorean captured/enslaved men.
Why should the women step away from their prefered roles, chatting and intriguing in tea houses, more than you? IC your char is as Gorean as their's, and has similar risks: When bested, slavery and additionally death, both of which is as permanent usually, escape from slavery for men is as rare for men as for women by how Goreans really treat their slaves.
Experiencing the world or philosophy works from both perspectives, as the mighty warrior or the despaired kajirus, as the experience is what you, the player, makes as well. The only thing you might need to find is a somewhat Gorean behaving crowd of people around you, if you boss them or they boss you.

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