The Luther Scrolls

Discussions about John Norman, and his books.

Have you heard of the Luther Scrolls? DId you ever read them? If so, what did you think of them?

Never heard of them.
2
3%
Never heard of them.
2
3%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 70
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Pelopidas
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The Luther Scrolls

Postby Pelopidas » Wed May 22, 2013 7:27 pm

And what makes you think that a person reading the books or reading the forums and the discussions will end up with a less distorted version of Gor in their heads than reading his scrolls? They won't.

They might get this point right, they might some other argument right, but they will make a mistake at something else, simply because the material is vast and people are people. I been in the Gorums, well, many years, and all I'm seeing is disagreements and those don't happen cause people aren't reading the strongest disagreements come from those who do read. Besides Caranda and Garian Vidor I don't remember many others who could claim a true mastery of the material. And don't get me started with people who came from HTML Gor or whatever other venue, mostly them brought with them huge biases.

And the point again is that yes, Luther gets some stuff right, or would you send people read Plato too in order to discover Normans influences, and given that, people should include him at the material worth reading.

People can read books, the forums, his scrolls, other forums, you know Kaitlin reading comprehension gets better when we especially read stuff we don't agree with.


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Glaucon
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Glaucon » Wed May 22, 2013 10:22 pm

If disagreement is insulting then you are equally insulting.


No, I am not. I don't call you a liar, for one. And I am not saying you hold the position you hold because you feel ashamed of something you RP.

You believe I offer arguments from authority and I believe your arguments are from ignorance.


That, just there, is exactly what an an argument from authority IS.

The slave pace issue was only one really mundane example that you haven't denied yet.


You mentioned it. I accepted it as truth, then checked it out, later. It wasn't in the scrolls. Then you said it was in the scrolls, but without the name. I didn't even know what slave paces are supposed to be (even if you say I take slaves through them on a daily basis). What you DID mention about what Luther said was wrong (since you straw-manned him). So, as far as I am concerned, this slave pace evidence is no longer admisible. Consider that a denial.

And as for me 'running under Pelo's skirts'... that is anoher silly tit-for-tat. The arguments I have posted in this thread do in no way rely on anything he has said or done. I think you are confusing this one with another thread from a while back (because you keep referring to it in your posts, even if no one seems to have responded to that, yet).

Anyway, you have indeed made it perfectly clear that you dislike the scrolls. You have fallen short on giving arguments, instead insisting that you have them, but don't want to share them. Fine. I have drawn my own conclusions about why you dislike them so much. And I will stop responding to your posts in this thread, since any more of this pointless tit-for-tat would be pointless, given that you are unwilling to back your claims up with arguments. It would be a waste of bytes.

Now, back to Pelo's 'skirts':

Pelopidas wrote:And the point again is that yes, Luther gets some stuff right, or would you send people read Plato too in order to discover Normans influences, and given that, people should include him at the material worth reading.


I think he gets most of the more basic stuff right, really. The simple summary stuff. I suspect that few people here are in a position to judge MOST of his essays, though. Probably not even Garian or Caranda or Kaitlin (I have no issue with including her in a list of 'experts' on the books that post here), because, well, you would probably need to have done the right sort of reading.

Luther gets a lot of stuff about Norman's likely sources of inpspiration right, I suspect, in a way few of us could, simply because he seems to have a fairly siminal background as Norman/Lange. If you happen to have that background, you spot similarities and likely sources of inspiration. Norman probably didn't read much Foucault, or Frankfurther Schule or post-modernists or modern anthropology. Or if he did, it clearly doesn't shine through in the books. Nor did he study history in-depth, I think, though he clearly had an interest in it. Both of that shines through. He clearly isn't an exact scientist either. He clearly did read his classic philosophers, most likely his classical history (Plutarch, Tacitus, and the like), and probably took a shine to that, because that DOES shine through in his novels. Luther's background clearly enabled him to investigate and talk intelligently about Norman's inspirations in a way that many other 'experts' would not be able to. Someone might read and memorize ALL of The Canterbury Tales, without any errors, but that doesn't mean they are qualified to act as experts on Chaucer.

That doesn't mean that all the stuff in the Luther Scrolls is all that profound. Or all that useful to you. It depends on what you are looking for. But if someone wanted to spend time to become an expert on the Gor books, beyond just wanting to learn and maybe memorize every single trivial detail regarding the way kamisks are knotted in the north vs the south or something, so they can always flip out a quote in an argument about the perfect visual representation of gorean avi's, then they should NOT AVOID the Luther Scrolls. They seem to be the only thing of it's kind, covering many different topics, including detailed commentory regarding the various revisions Norman made to the books, examinations of his professional philosophy, his direct 'science fiction' examples, and so forth... the sort of stuff someone professionally studying a set of books might need to look into.

Now, I get that we are RP-nerds. That we don't care about how the Star Trek creators thought up and developed Klingons, we just want to know the word for baseball bat and zipper in the Klingon language, uber-nerds that we are. But to dismiss the Luther Scrolls, one of the most elaborate, far ranging (and overall decent quality) set of texts about the Gor books just because he may have gotten some of the small details that might relate to RP wrong (not as wrong as some seem to think they are, clearly) and to then go on and build what Keyser rightly called something of a conspiracy theory out of it, seeing his texts as the root cause of all those onlinisms and all the bad stuff we used to encounter and still encounter in SL Gor, and to dismiss his stuff as 'crap' and as something that should be avoided because of it is, frankly... extremely unfair, narrow-minded and really rather silly.

And, as I see it, the only possible explanation of why some many intelligent people (like all of you gorums posters) would insist on something so silly MUST be that there is a collective 'opinion' swaying many of you. Because nothing is as good as addling the brains of otherwise intelligent people than collective silliness.
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Pelopidas
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The Luther Scrolls

Postby Pelopidas » Thu May 23, 2013 1:22 am

Glaucon I just said "some" stuff right trying to appease Kaitlin to a degree and, well, let her dig the graves of her own argument. The more moderate an argument appears to me the more absurd an extreme counter argument looks.

Luther gets alot of stuff right, 94 essays for Christ shake, tons of information, he explains why he didnt use alot of references, it is an issue I struggled with when I was building my blog too and he states clearly that his scrolls are addressed to a wider audience than Kaitlin argues. Role players, lifestylers, people simply interested in Gor and so on that's why you have such a wide variety of information to start with.


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Morgus
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Morgus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:45 pm

Tal ... I am a little late to the party, as I joined today ... I read Luther's Scrolls back in the '90s when there was very little information available on Gor as the internet itself was young to most and information was scarce ... for a while Luther's Scrolls were the most in depth and showed much time and effort in researching the information he made available ... I'd be willing to bet those who speak badly of his scrolls have read very few books themselves and, knowing little of Gor, can't appreciate the scrolls for what they were at the time ... some here think that reading a book or two is all they need to "play" at Gor, which may be true, but you really don't know how stupid that makes you look to those who have read all the books, even several times, to understand the underlying philosophy of Gor ... most on SL Gor bend and twist Gor so much it is unrecognizable from the Gor John Norman created ... Luther tried to explain that, but most can't see the forest for the trees ... play at your "Disney Gor" and have the great opinion of yourself as "Gorean" - you're as at home on Gor as much as Crocodile Dundee was in New York ...
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Leah
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Leah » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:23 pm

Morgus wrote:I'd be willing to bet those who speak badly of his scrolls have read very few books themselves and, knowing little of Gor, can't appreciate the scrolls for what they were at the time


Nah, you'd lose the bet. So how much money did you put up for the bet? :D

Also, had to be said: :disney: :disney: :disney:
This isn't fucking Survivor. We aren't a tribe.

If I won't put up with an in-character owner trying to control my OOC life, what makes you think I'll put up with you trying to do that?

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Morgus
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Morgus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:18 pm

Tal, Leah ... Your post and profile just shores up some of what I touched upon ... SL Gor is not true role-play that is true to Gor ... your Home Stone does not exist on John Norman's Gor - but it does in your version of Gor ... as far as reading the books, many have not read them all ... if one has to go around with "cheater" cards what has he learned ... I've even seen a "master" brag that he had never read a single book, just picked up what he knew from others (and badly at that) ... many Gor role-players have real-life self-esteem issues that can be put aside when online ... here, wimps can be assholes; people who are bullied can be bullies; women who are in the shadows can be panthers or talunas or a bitchy Free Woman ... sure, Gor is a fantasy world, but it doesn't have to be destroyed by those who know not of which they speak ... if I were John Norman I'd tell Linden to do what the Herbert Foundation did to those who "played" Dune - take it down, as it is not the Gor he created, just a bastardized version that each individual tries to make his own, further distorting Gor for those who don't know, perpetuating the bad image that many have of Gor ... sure, I'm probably a little "overboard" with my attitude about Gor role-play, but not without reason ... as the saying goes - be Gorean or be gone; most online Gor role-play sites would be wastelands if that were actually enforced ... be well ...
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Sasi
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Sasi » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:02 am

Morgus wrote:as the saying goes - be Gorean or be gone; most online Gor role-play sites would be wastelands if that were actually enforced ... be well ...


Hello Morgus (I keep the "Tal" and other Gorean words for my role play only)

So, excuse me, but for perpetuating the bad image that many have of Gor, I would say that the books are self sufficient :mrgreen:

Not only the insane slavery, but too, how John Norman portrays the woman in general...

Though, I must admit that this culture is something rather fun and interesting to RP.
...

Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby ... » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:14 am

Signing up to an internet forum to tell its community how much they all suck, then pissing and moaning about there being assholes on the internet.

Why, this could almost be a dictionary example of irony!
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Glaucon
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Glaucon » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:38 am

I think Morgus' posts are a great blast from the past, stirring memories from days past, when loads of folks used to rant like that. The arguments have evolved, here. But the lines were drawn differently then. Awesome. :thumbup:
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DarbyDollinger
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby DarbyDollinger » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:22 am

Welcome to the forum, Morgus.

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