The Luther Scrolls

Discussions about John Norman, and his books.

Have you heard of the Luther Scrolls? DId you ever read them? If so, what did you think of them?

Never heard of them.
2
3%
Never heard of them.
2
3%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 70
Violetta Daviau
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Violetta Daviau » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:47 am

Anarch Allegiere wrote:I'm not sure if it is what Morgus means but Gor for me has never just been 'only' roleplay either. But not in the sense that I expect anything in the sense of OOC.

I see it more in a way of trying to understand and getting to experience a philosophy that is completely counter to modern morality. This is why I don't agree with the usual opinion of: 'all RP must be consensual and enjoyable'

For me roleplaying in Gor is about trying to create and experience a world or lifestyle that you can't experience in RL. A challenging and dangerous place where by making the wrong moves, if you're an immersive roleplayer, you could end up enslaved against your will or, if you manage to face the challenge, could rise to the higher echelons of whatever gorean society you're living in.

But this experience is pretty hard to find in SL Gor between the pure 'lolz it's just for funsies'-roleplayers, the 'tea party safe-Gor IC/OOC blenders' and those who ignore immersion and think that traveling from north to south should be possible in a teleport and that running to the docks is enough to escape back home.


It does not make any difference what you want to feel in Gor or how you call it.
You want to "understand and getting to experience a philosophy that is completely counter to modern morality", while another may want to experience this "world of Gor with all it means and comes with it, including society, culture, way of thinking, tech level and its meanings" (which is about how I would call it as pure roleplayer). It is the same, it is and stays roleplay. You could even form a LARP group out in nearby forests, with a bunch of men and a few women who have cared for contraception and are open for rough BDSM sex, it is still roleplay.

Others come to Gor to experience either a D/s relation at all as they cannot find a partner for it in RL, or an even deeper, limitless D/s relation, the feeling of owning / being owned, the safety of doing what they would not dare (e.g. public nudity) in a surrounding that keeps their RL reputation clean and jail free. And all that best with a very handsome or ultra beautiful or cute character, looks they often cannot resemble in RL either. For those the surroundings of Gor as in Flora, Fauna, Building style, clothing etc. is rather generic, exchangeable. It just does not matter. Some people reduce the gaming platform on SL Gor sims to romance, pewpew, drinking tea/coffee/paga because they lack any skill or imagination to go beyond that, or a way to "be themselves on Gor", as cool as they want to be in their sayings and as clownlike they want to behave. Guess that is what Morgus meant as such not being Gor anymore.

In addition to that you have so strongly varying levels in RP skills, theme lore knowledge, imagination skills, logic skills, intelligence, style and other interests. You basically state some kind of sadness (which I feel likewise btw) because people do not give you your imagination, are not on your RP skill level or style, do not change their interest and reason for being there to your's or put their fun inferior to your fun. But who can say it is not upon you (and me) to adjust more to the maiority? The one that says that your (and my) fun is worth as much as their's, but while you can do romance, they appear often unable to do your ways - the topic about strong and weak links of a chain. Even that is relative though as it is on a game platform, and there must be concessions to it, the very basic differences of Gor and SL sims/Gor (e.g. Gor is not limited to sims, Gor does not only have 15.000 players or such). Also the perceptions of what is a valid concession to the platform and how far the imagined RP realism should go differ for all people.

Still though, vice versa, you gain fun from RP that is not needingly "consensual and enjoyable" for others, but who are you to plant your joy above others' while there are enough PvP shooters and MMORPGs out there in which you can down any quest spwan half-afk person 20 levels beneath you at your leisure. Roleplay still contains the word play, which indicated fun for those who do it. If one does not like Poker, they will not do it. If they do it, forced, it will not be a playing for them, but an enforced necessity.

I guess to attract the right people for one's own RP style is threefolded: ...
... to live it well visible also when it comes to own disadvantages and meaningful consequences, without bowing out by e.g. turning a cut throat, beheaded neck, into just a strong wound or something that happened to the poor soul aside you in the battle ranks - or, the classical, to bow out of enslavements the quick and easy way, especially as a man.
... find compromises that cater both when merging the concessions to the platform
... to seek players that are likeminded and stick with them exclusively
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Violetta Daviau » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:00 am

Anarch Allegiere wrote:I see it more in a way of trying to understand and getting to experience a philosophy that is completely counter to modern morality. This is why I don't agree with the usual opinion of: 'all RP must be consensual and enjoyable'


Addition... sorry...

As I learned to know you, you had about always been in a position of IC rank, now and then also OOC rank (admin etc.). That is surely based on your RP skill, activity, your theme knowledge and OOC knowledge of how to make a community big and successful. Your claim above and the style I experienced your play as was one of the hero of the story. To understrike your claims you learned to fight GM combat really well too as it is a commonly used tool to fell decisions in SL Gor, as unrealistic and flawed as that tool is. All that implies somehow that you desire to be the glorious or infame hero of your surroundings.

So the question others could ask is: "Why should you be there hero?"
You can well experience the non-consensual roleplay/philosophy and non-enjoyable times from a perspective that might be not enjoyable for yourself, e.g. as a kajirus. You can interact with others as kajirus, NPC guards preventing you to flee when those others are not online, play out the desperation of a Gorean man in such situation, do their works, obey for the last will to survive that is common for Gorean captured/enslaved men.
Why should the women step away from their prefered roles, chatting and intriguing in tea houses, more than you? IC your char is as Gorean as their's, and has similar risks: When bested, slavery and additionally death, both of which is as permanent usually, escape from slavery for men is as rare for men as for women by how Goreans really treat their slaves.
Experiencing the world or philosophy works from both perspectives, as the mighty warrior or the despaired kajirus, as the experience is what you, the player, makes as well. The only thing you might need to find is a somewhat Gorean behaving crowd of people around you, if you boss them or they boss you.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:44 am

Violetta Daviau wrote:As I learned to know you, you had about always been in a position of IC rank, now and then also OOC rank (admin etc.). That is surely based on your RP skill, activity, your theme knowledge and OOC knowledge of how to make a community big and successful. Your claim above and the style I experienced your play as was one of the hero of the story.


Going to have to stop you there a bit. That 'Hero'-role I once played I played because other people on the sim and management asked me to play it and wanted to start a certain big storyline in which this hero-type character played a pivotal role. Let me also point out that this hero character in the end, had his plans fail and got captured, imprisoned and burned alive in a copper bosk.

I don't generally tend to ever stop the roleplay. Even if it ends up with me enslaved or whatever, and that is a storyline I have played out before in the past even if my captor saw it fit to release me early... I've played very many different roles on many different characters. Usually when I end up high in rank or something, it's because people ask me to. I've equally played the role of poor beggar and petty thief before, or yes even slave.

I've played the role of the losing side quite a lot and sat through hours or even days of roleplay that I wasn't fully comfortable with on an OOC level. Sadly, you often find out that people aren't willing to do the same when the roles are turned.

Roleplay is roleplay for me. I can have as much fun roleplaying being on the losing side as being on the winning side. But time and time again I've to find out that for other people this just isn't the case... They for example start major drama, spreading slander and rumours behind your back about made-up shit because you roleplayed branding their companion and other very simple things.

You're kinda preaching to the wrong person here. I too often want to ask them all: "Why do you always want to RP the 'hero' ?"

You're starting to sound a bit like a feminist there, assuming lots of things about me because I roleplay a "man" in SL Gor. Just look at the last 'bigger than it's shoes' intersim war BtB Gor had. It ended with both sides proclaiming they won. Even the 'no meter combat' ultra-paragraph sim that claimed they didn't care about winning felt the need to come out as the winners, and even the other 'we're always friendly it's just roleplay, let's have some fun'-more mainstream sim felt the need to be the winners of the conflict.

If you want a fair sim it's all about who you put in charge as the main storyline pushers. Put Mr. Commander with his ultra-restricted slave in charge of things and you're gonna get an ultra-restricted sim that can't ever lose anything. And most BtB sims are sadly organized like this, even the newer ones, even the ones often talked about on this forum.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Violetta Daviau » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:12 am

Thanks for the clarifications. I see you are not much different than I am in most aspects then - although I have a slight different way of letting people out when I sense they do not enjoy the enforced role.

I am clearly not a Feminist. I am for equal rights and chances of women - feminists on the opposite do often yet not know the fair level of equal (which is equal and not >>all "new" rights, no "new" duties<<). They too often shoot way above the goal by intend and want that their goal is made taller than such of men while still it is much smaller. Equal sized is apparently for many not an option... that is not me.
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Mynerva
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Mynerva » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:03 pm

Conall wrote:Roleplayers, yes. But what do they roleplay ? It is not really gor anymore but just some kinky roleplay which includes some Masters and some Slaves, some BDSM, much kink and lots of fun which has to be safe, sane and consensual not only while being OOC but also IC or you are muted and/or FTBed or banned.



I understand that can be frustrating. I came up against this kind of role play many many times - and it often clashed with what I had in mind for my character.

But! it is usually not the (just) role players who have caused those kinds of issues for me. It is usually the players that do have some crossover in their relationships with their rp partners who cry foul immediately if something does not fit into their gorean love story.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Mynerva » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:09 pm

Morgus wrote:....sure, "it's fantasy" and "it's only role play" and "they only want to role play and nothing deeper" ... and that's just it - they know nothing of Gor, only that it sounds like fun, and "wanna-be" "masters" can puff out their chests and play bad-ass and kick around slave girls ...

I would hope that people who cared about his work would protect his work and also care enough to protect his world and keep it in character enough so that it is recognizable.


The thing about many role players is - they are not wanna-be Masters - because they just want to play a gorean man in a game - they have no desire to actually BE a master. Quite a few of those IC masters are actually played by women.

I always enjoyed it most to play it closely by the books. But I do not see it as a problem if others do not. It is not an insult to JN's work. It does not take away from his novels one bit. The secret is to find players who share one's vision of what is good role play. That is not always easy.....and for my taste, OOC relationships and OOC sensibilities get in the way too often when trying to actually play gor as it is described in the books.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Leah » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:28 pm

Mynerva wrote:
Conall wrote:Roleplayers, yes. But what do they roleplay ? It is not really gor anymore but just some kinky roleplay which includes some Masters and some Slaves, some BDSM, much kink and lots of fun which has to be safe, sane and consensual not only while being OOC but also IC or you are muted and/or FTBed or banned.



I understand that can be frustrating. I came up against this kind of role play many many times - and it often clashed with what I had in mind for my character.

But! it is usually not the (just) role players who have caused those kinds of issues for me. It is usually the players that do have some crossover in their relationships with their rp partners who cry foul immediately if something does not fit into their gorean love story.


Yes, I'd have to agree with this. I honestly can't recall a situation where a roleplayer with 0 crossover gave me this kind of trouble.
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Conall
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Conall » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:05 pm

And i had some situations (not many though, probably because i am not so active anymore)where it was not a crossover because of some ooc relationships but because of a total misunderstanding or ignorance about the actual setting the slave (and some FWs)had entered and which is called Gor. I was not nice enough, not understanding enough, bad me kept it IC and gorean and did not used some more decent BDSM ways.

I am still sure if people would understand and it would be pointed more clearly out to them that gor and gorean roleplay has very less to do with bdsm and ssc (except you are in privacy where you can do what you want), you could actually enjoy much more the very simple gorean roleplay.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Leah » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:39 pm

Conall wrote:And i had some situations (not many though, probably because i am not so active anymore)where it was not a crossover because of some ooc relationships but because of a total misunderstanding or ignorance about the actual setting the slave (and some FWs)had entered and which is called Gor. I was not nice enough, not understanding enough, bad me kept it IC and gorean and did not used some more decent BDSM ways.

I am still sure if people would understand and it would be pointed more clearly out to them that gor and gorean roleplay has very less to do with bdsm and ssc (except you are in privacy where you can do what you want), you could actually enjoy much more the very simple gorean roleplay.


Yeah, but...Conall...did you really want to RP with them? I mean...if they can't appreciate your style of RP, it's better that they freak out early before mucking with your RP too much.

You meanie, you.

More to the point, though, I still think it's important to remember that there are real people behind the avatars. Real people are weird and have strange (to me) triggers and sometimes flip out over things that I really don't understand. Then again, I suppose I am strange and weird (to them) and sometimes flip out over things they don't really understand.

I dunno, man. I don't see the issue with making sure everyone is having fun in the situation. And, if they were flipping out from an OOC perspective because you weren't "nice" enough OOC, that's crossover to me. :fleeflee:
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Sasi » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:08 pm

Conall wrote:And i had some situations (not many though, probably because i am not so active anymore)where it was not a crossover because of some ooc relationships but because of a total misunderstanding or ignorance about the actual setting the slave (and some FWs)had entered and which is called Gor. I was not nice enough, not understanding enough, bad me kept it IC and gorean and did not used some more decent BDSM ways.

I am still sure if people would understand and it would be pointed more clearly out to them that gor and gorean roleplay has very less to do with bdsm and ssc (except you are in privacy where you can do what you want), you could actually enjoy much more the very simple gorean roleplay.


And you have no idea about the number of men who in Gor have a total misunderstanding about the FW's role and the notion of ranks, how many of them, of low caste, playing some artisan or peasants, had expected that my high caste and wealthy FW's character would bow in front of them because they were men, and were just upset OOC because she considered herself, with reason, so, due to her position and family, as superior to them... And I shouldn't even speak of these other men who insult the FW in requiring that slaves kneel in nadu in their presence... Pointing to these guys the quotes from books (because of course, IC, the FW reacts bad and gets some stupid reaction making the whole scene turning ridiculous) where men respect highly the FW , even those with sharp tongues and would not offend them, is just a waste of time, you get usually the stereotyped and simplistic argument that is "Gor is a man's world and women are free only because men allow them to be free blah blah..." Just boring...

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