The Luther Scrolls

Discussions about John Norman, and his books.

Have you heard of the Luther Scrolls? DId you ever read them? If so, what did you think of them?

Never heard of them.
2
3%
Never heard of them.
2
3%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 70
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Pelopidas
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The Luther Scrolls

Postby Pelopidas » Wed May 22, 2013 7:27 pm

And what makes you think that a person reading the books or reading the forums and the discussions will end up with a less distorted version of Gor in their heads than reading his scrolls? They won't.

They might get this point right, they might some other argument right, but they will make a mistake at something else, simply because the material is vast and people are people. I been in the Gorums, well, many years, and all I'm seeing is disagreements and those don't happen cause people aren't reading the strongest disagreements come from those who do read. Besides Caranda and Garian Vidor I don't remember many others who could claim a true mastery of the material. And don't get me started with people who came from HTML Gor or whatever other venue, mostly them brought with them huge biases.

And the point again is that yes, Luther gets some stuff right, or would you send people read Plato too in order to discover Normans influences, and given that, people should include him at the material worth reading.

People can read books, the forums, his scrolls, other forums, you know Kaitlin reading comprehension gets better when we especially read stuff we don't agree with.


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Kaitlin
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Kaitlin » Wed May 22, 2013 9:50 pm

Glaucon wrote:TL, RD: @ Kaitlin: You offer nothing but insults and arguments from authority.


If disagreement is insulting then you are equally insulting. You believe I offer arguments from authority and I believe your arguments are from ignorance. That is not to say you are ignorant...you are far from that IMO but on this topic it boils down to not knowing what you don't know.


Full post:

You say I argue against your statement that the Luther Scrolls are utter crap because I engage in the onlinism of taking 'slaves through their paces' and am defending the Luther Scrolls because of it. Clearly, you are being rather stupid there (which anyone bothering to read my posts can see). You call me a liar, effectively. Which I would call very bad manners.


I believe you engage in various onlinisms if you follow the outline provided by the Luther Scrolls and see no issues with much of what he presents as it relates to gorean RP. The slave pace issue was only one really mundane example that you haven't denied yet.

Isn't this what you stated? I'd hate to misquote you as badly as you tend to do where my position is concerned.

I think that those scrolls were quite helpful, to a lot of people. Norman didn't write an RP guide. Finding 'facts' in the books is pretty hard, especially when you don't have them all and before google and other search indexes indexed everything.


That was you wasn't it? If this is your position then slave paces and other invented nonsense in your RP isn't too big of a jump. How can you exclude from your RP something you either don't believe exists or is of such a small scale it is irrelevant?

I am not sure it would be WRONG for someone claiming to be such a great authority on Gor to educate others on a forum like this.


I don't believe I'm a great authority on Gor. I believe I'm better read than most players I have encountered in game and on gorums. I believe I've had the luxury or misfortune to have seen most of the arguments that appear here including those on the Luther scrolls long before SL Gor. That time has been spent among book enthusiasts, book haters, avid role players and people like Bear who thought chilla and servery were a nice trick to play on those who didn't know any better. All that said, it isn't all that important in some debates since I've met players that can RP circles around me that come from other genre and have only basic knowledge of gor not polluted by poor interpretations of the books.

Whether you claimed it was wrong or not for me not to offer you enough examples to justify my position in your eyes, it is the crux of your entire argument. I find no value in doing so at all despite our round and round in this thread which I actually have minded. Am I upset you believe there are only the small number of things I mentioned? Not at all. Whatever floats your boat. You can even chalk it up to me having made the entire thing up because I like going along with the "SL sheep mentality" or pure sophistry. We both know better even if I don't type another word on the disconnects.

As if you wanted to drown the debate in authority arguments.


Are you trying to drown the thread in the opposite? I suspect you will find you have just as many posts without laying out a case for why these essays are a benefit to RP other than what the author provides as an intro and your own bias and ignorance of any disconnects. Wait you did toss out the three Pillars of Gor and a tacit admission. Heaven forbid I be black and white.

If Caranda feels what I said here is wrong, she can speak for herself. You can keep bringing her up, using her as a shield, another one of your authority arguments. But from as far as I could tell from her relatively short post, her position on the Luther Scrolls was far less extreme than yours.


And Pelo is what for you? I can assure you that I have used Caranda far less than you have run under Pelo's skirts. The reason I chose to use her post and not Oor's or Auron's or even Ghosts is because you showed your hand in your response to her. Simple. If you hadn't I likely wouldn't have mentioned her again in this thread other than to point out the fact that Pelo had a reading comprehension problem. She echoed what I stated despite you having some weird argument about the degree of disdain. They are interpretation masquerading as facts because despite his disclaimer he doesn't separate what he conjures up and what is offered in the books. He also fails to provide context even when he does source the author.

But when I am questioning something, examining it, such as here, the Luther Scrolls and whether they deserve the rep they have, I am not content with you saying 'people that know more about the books than you say they are crap'. I want to SEE or be shown they are crap.


And what you want is irrelevant. You asked an opinion of the scrolls. You got an answer. How well you accept that answer is squarely on your shoulders. I'll say again...chalk up the examples as "not much" or "exaggerated". I really don't care. It is exactly what I expected before we left the other thread that started this thread. If I was having this debate with Garan or Caranda we might delve into the nuanced errors but with you I still find it a pretty nonsensical waste of time. I'd rather keep telling you no in paragraph form and let you walk away believing they are still the "Gorean Bible". Why bother reading the books, despite admitting you have them, when you have the scrolls?
:lol:

Pelopidas wrote:And what makes you think that a person reading the books or reading the forums and the discussions will end up with a less distorted version of Gor in their heads than reading his scrolls?


On this we can each only rely on our own experiences. Yours may be different. I have yet to meet a player spouting many of the onlinisms I see in game who has actually read the books— not claimed to read the books—but have actually read them. The opposite has proved to be true with players who rely on Luther for their gorean info.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Glaucon » Wed May 22, 2013 10:22 pm

If disagreement is insulting then you are equally insulting.


No, I am not. I don't call you a liar, for one. And I am not saying you hold the position you hold because you feel ashamed of something you RP.

You believe I offer arguments from authority and I believe your arguments are from ignorance.


That, just there, is exactly what an an argument from authority IS.

The slave pace issue was only one really mundane example that you haven't denied yet.


You mentioned it. I accepted it as truth, then checked it out, later. It wasn't in the scrolls. Then you said it was in the scrolls, but without the name. I didn't even know what slave paces are supposed to be (even if you say I take slaves through them on a daily basis). What you DID mention about what Luther said was wrong (since you straw-manned him). So, as far as I am concerned, this slave pace evidence is no longer admisible. Consider that a denial.

And as for me 'running under Pelo's skirts'... that is anoher silly tit-for-tat. The arguments I have posted in this thread do in no way rely on anything he has said or done. I think you are confusing this one with another thread from a while back (because you keep referring to it in your posts, even if no one seems to have responded to that, yet).

Anyway, you have indeed made it perfectly clear that you dislike the scrolls. You have fallen short on giving arguments, instead insisting that you have them, but don't want to share them. Fine. I have drawn my own conclusions about why you dislike them so much. And I will stop responding to your posts in this thread, since any more of this pointless tit-for-tat would be pointless, given that you are unwilling to back your claims up with arguments. It would be a waste of bytes.

Now, back to Pelo's 'skirts':

Pelopidas wrote:And the point again is that yes, Luther gets some stuff right, or would you send people read Plato too in order to discover Normans influences, and given that, people should include him at the material worth reading.


I think he gets most of the more basic stuff right, really. The simple summary stuff. I suspect that few people here are in a position to judge MOST of his essays, though. Probably not even Garian or Caranda or Kaitlin (I have no issue with including her in a list of 'experts' on the books that post here), because, well, you would probably need to have done the right sort of reading.

Luther gets a lot of stuff about Norman's likely sources of inpspiration right, I suspect, in a way few of us could, simply because he seems to have a fairly siminal background as Norman/Lange. If you happen to have that background, you spot similarities and likely sources of inspiration. Norman probably didn't read much Foucault, or Frankfurther Schule or post-modernists or modern anthropology. Or if he did, it clearly doesn't shine through in the books. Nor did he study history in-depth, I think, though he clearly had an interest in it. Both of that shines through. He clearly isn't an exact scientist either. He clearly did read his classic philosophers, most likely his classical history (Plutarch, Tacitus, and the like), and probably took a shine to that, because that DOES shine through in his novels. Luther's background clearly enabled him to investigate and talk intelligently about Norman's inspirations in a way that many other 'experts' would not be able to. Someone might read and memorize ALL of The Canterbury Tales, without any errors, but that doesn't mean they are qualified to act as experts on Chaucer.

That doesn't mean that all the stuff in the Luther Scrolls is all that profound. Or all that useful to you. It depends on what you are looking for. But if someone wanted to spend time to become an expert on the Gor books, beyond just wanting to learn and maybe memorize every single trivial detail regarding the way kamisks are knotted in the north vs the south or something, so they can always flip out a quote in an argument about the perfect visual representation of gorean avi's, then they should NOT AVOID the Luther Scrolls. They seem to be the only thing of it's kind, covering many different topics, including detailed commentory regarding the various revisions Norman made to the books, examinations of his professional philosophy, his direct 'science fiction' examples, and so forth... the sort of stuff someone professionally studying a set of books might need to look into.

Now, I get that we are RP-nerds. That we don't care about how the Star Trek creators thought up and developed Klingons, we just want to know the word for baseball bat and zipper in the Klingon language, uber-nerds that we are. But to dismiss the Luther Scrolls, one of the most elaborate, far ranging (and overall decent quality) set of texts about the Gor books just because he may have gotten some of the small details that might relate to RP wrong (not as wrong as some seem to think they are, clearly) and to then go on and build what Keyser rightly called something of a conspiracy theory out of it, seeing his texts as the root cause of all those onlinisms and all the bad stuff we used to encounter and still encounter in SL Gor, and to dismiss his stuff as 'crap' and as something that should be avoided because of it is, frankly... extremely unfair, narrow-minded and really rather silly.

And, as I see it, the only possible explanation of why some many intelligent people (like all of you gorums posters) would insist on something so silly MUST be that there is a collective 'opinion' swaying many of you. Because nothing is as good as addling the brains of otherwise intelligent people than collective silliness.
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Kaitlin » Wed May 22, 2013 11:06 pm

Save me from forum victims and poor reading comprehension. I didn't suggest you were ashamed of anything. I figure you are quite proud of incorporating what you learned from the scrolls in your RP given your remarks in this thread. I'll be honest. I preferred the "anti-poster".
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The Luther Scrolls

Postby Pelopidas » Thu May 23, 2013 1:22 am

Glaucon I just said "some" stuff right trying to appease Kaitlin to a degree and, well, let her dig the graves of her own argument. The more moderate an argument appears to me the more absurd an extreme counter argument looks.

Luther gets alot of stuff right, 94 essays for Christ shake, tons of information, he explains why he didnt use alot of references, it is an issue I struggled with when I was building my blog too and he states clearly that his scrolls are addressed to a wider audience than Kaitlin argues. Role players, lifestylers, people simply interested in Gor and so on that's why you have such a wide variety of information to start with.


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Morgus
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Morgus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:45 pm

Tal ... I am a little late to the party, as I joined today ... I read Luther's Scrolls back in the '90s when there was very little information available on Gor as the internet itself was young to most and information was scarce ... for a while Luther's Scrolls were the most in depth and showed much time and effort in researching the information he made available ... I'd be willing to bet those who speak badly of his scrolls have read very few books themselves and, knowing little of Gor, can't appreciate the scrolls for what they were at the time ... some here think that reading a book or two is all they need to "play" at Gor, which may be true, but you really don't know how stupid that makes you look to those who have read all the books, even several times, to understand the underlying philosophy of Gor ... most on SL Gor bend and twist Gor so much it is unrecognizable from the Gor John Norman created ... Luther tried to explain that, but most can't see the forest for the trees ... play at your "Disney Gor" and have the great opinion of yourself as "Gorean" - you're as at home on Gor as much as Crocodile Dundee was in New York ...
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Leah » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:23 pm

Morgus wrote:I'd be willing to bet those who speak badly of his scrolls have read very few books themselves and, knowing little of Gor, can't appreciate the scrolls for what they were at the time


Nah, you'd lose the bet. So how much money did you put up for the bet? :D

Also, had to be said: :disney: :disney: :disney:
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Morgus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:18 pm

Tal, Leah ... Your post and profile just shores up some of what I touched upon ... SL Gor is not true role-play that is true to Gor ... your Home Stone does not exist on John Norman's Gor - but it does in your version of Gor ... as far as reading the books, many have not read them all ... if one has to go around with "cheater" cards what has he learned ... I've even seen a "master" brag that he had never read a single book, just picked up what he knew from others (and badly at that) ... many Gor role-players have real-life self-esteem issues that can be put aside when online ... here, wimps can be assholes; people who are bullied can be bullies; women who are in the shadows can be panthers or talunas or a bitchy Free Woman ... sure, Gor is a fantasy world, but it doesn't have to be destroyed by those who know not of which they speak ... if I were John Norman I'd tell Linden to do what the Herbert Foundation did to those who "played" Dune - take it down, as it is not the Gor he created, just a bastardized version that each individual tries to make his own, further distorting Gor for those who don't know, perpetuating the bad image that many have of Gor ... sure, I'm probably a little "overboard" with my attitude about Gor role-play, but not without reason ... as the saying goes - be Gorean or be gone; most online Gor role-play sites would be wastelands if that were actually enforced ... be well ...
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Sasi » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:02 am

Morgus wrote:as the saying goes - be Gorean or be gone; most online Gor role-play sites would be wastelands if that were actually enforced ... be well ...


Hello Morgus (I keep the "Tal" and other Gorean words for my role play only)

So, excuse me, but for perpetuating the bad image that many have of Gor, I would say that the books are self sufficient :mrgreen:

Not only the insane slavery, but too, how John Norman portrays the woman in general...

Though, I must admit that this culture is something rather fun and interesting to RP.
...

Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby ... » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:14 am

Signing up to an internet forum to tell its community how much they all suck, then pissing and moaning about there being assholes on the internet.

Why, this could almost be a dictionary example of irony!

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