The Luther Scrolls

Discussions about John Norman, and his books.

Have you heard of the Luther Scrolls? DId you ever read them? If so, what did you think of them?

Never heard of them.
2
3%
Never heard of them.
2
3%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Didn't he hammer them to a church door in 1517?
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
Heard of them or seen them, never really read them.
1
1%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
I read (some of) them. Good information in them.
8
11%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. I felt they were so-so.
11
16%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They were quite bad.
10
14%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
Read (some of) them. They ruined SL Gor.
2
3%
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
I read the Luther scrolls, therefore I am.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 70
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Glaucon
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The Luther Scrolls

Postby Glaucon » Sat May 11, 2013 4:06 pm

A question regarding the (in)famous Luther scrolls. Some people seem to have a very strong opinion regarding them. Mostly... not a positive one, these days. So... if you'd like... please give your thoughts. And if you like them, or do not... I would be most interested in the 'why'.
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Glaucon
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Glaucon » Sat May 11, 2013 4:12 pm

Oh, for those that don't know them, here is a link:

http://www.gor-now.net/delphius2002/
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Danika Stenvaag
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Danika Stenvaag » Sat May 11, 2013 6:04 pm

weren't they green colored and he tried to kill superman with it?
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Elle Couerblanc
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Elle Couerblanc » Sat May 11, 2013 6:06 pm

They were okay. When he sticks to the facts and just the facts I found them helpful - particularly when I needed a quick reference point to remind me of something I had read in one of the books previously.
"Old stories are like old friends. You have to visit them from time to time." Bran - A Storm of Swords, pg 315

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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby ... » Sat May 11, 2013 7:00 pm

Opinion/interpretation presented as fact. Quite bad.
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Kiana Kuhr
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Kiana Kuhr » Sat May 11, 2013 7:06 pm

Yeah, they are quite bad to me too. If you are going to look at anything for quick reference, The Gorean Cave is much more reliable.
Sometimes our power resides not in what we do, but in what we don't do.
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Pelopidas
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Pelopidas » Sat May 11, 2013 7:28 pm

What you people need is the Pelo Scrolls, Oor especially and who knows if you beg me enough i might write them.
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Manon Seid
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Manon Seid » Sun May 12, 2013 7:44 am

Waggles eye brows - you should stop posting at the gorums and go fuck me more Dion baby :P
A Demon Sin - Thanks for the gift Judas
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Glaucon
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Glaucon » Sun May 12, 2013 7:56 am

Hmmm, did he present opinion/interpretation as fact? I don't think the guy did, really. There were plenty of references of him saying this was just his interpretation, his attempt to collect facts about the books. Maybe others took it as fact, but that is hardly his fault.

I think that those scrolls were quite helpful, to a lot of people. Norman didn't write an RP guide. Finding 'facts' in the books is pretty hard, especially when you don't have them all and before google and other search indexes indexed everything. So, part of the Luther scrolls, along with various other sources, served as a kind of RP-guide instead. Most of the notecards he made on particular topics are pretty accurate. And his essays aren't at all bad either. He delved into particular topics more deeply than anyone else has since, I think. For example, even though I have seen plenty of blog-posts (and forum postings) about Gor, who has ever spend time to write essays about the Greek/Roman roots of the stuff that is in the books?

Compared to a lot of other 'sources' about Gor on the web, especially 5 years ago, his work was really quite nuanced and systematic (especially since a lot of the other stuff was quite bad). His 'essays' on Gor's philosophy and such are rather dry and not always as insightful as one might hope, but they aren't full of shit either.

The thing I disliked most about them was the nearly semi-religious tone of some of his essays, not unlike a theologican's tone when delving into biblical texts. Which was not as bad as some of the stuff written about Gor (especially from those life-styler times), but still somewhat annoying, and the complete lack of a 'critical' element in his analysis of the stuff in the books.

His notecards etc. were not full of 'onlinisms', which some people may think. I don't think I ever saw him talk about scriberies, chillas, say aye or aii, have panther girls call men 'male', or stuff like that. Maybe they did contain some mistaken interpretationThat is stuff the online community came up with on it's own, not through his scrolls/notecards.

If I were to guess where the current fad of bashing the Luther scrolls comes from, I'd guess this must be fuelled by a couple of factors:
- People resenting players 'knowing' about Gor through notecards and sources like the Luther scrolls, without having read the books. (The most important one).
- Some people abducting passages from the luther scrolls and other notecards and using them to 'justify' playing femlaw, etc.
- The 'tone' of the scrolls, in which the author lists what he feels are 'facts' from the books (without quotes and references) and presents them as such, which may annoy those that feel THEY themselves have a better grasp on those 'facts.
- The fact that they are old, associated with past style of life-styler dominated RP that most of SL Gor has emancipated itself from, that there are some new sources that may be better.
- Luther had an interest in the books that was sort of academic, clearly. This may have impressed those that regarded Gor in a life-styly way. But for pure Gor RP-ers, a lot of it is less relevant. Why would they care about comparisons between Norman's ideas and Nietzche's or Aristotle's?
- The fact that it has become fashionable to say they are crap, just as it became fashionable to bash Norman himself as the worst writer in the English language some years ago. People are herd-animals, after all.
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Kaitlin
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Re: The Luther Scrolls

Postby Kaitlin » Sun May 12, 2013 8:31 am

Glaucon wrote:I think that those scrolls were quite helpful, to a lot of people. Norman didn't write an RP guide. Finding 'facts' in the books is pretty hard, especially when you don't have them all and before google and other search indexes indexed everything. So, part of the Luther scrolls, along with various other sources, served as a kind of RP-guide instead.


These essays started out as a guide on how to RP gor. It is also the single largest source for onlinisms. He is no different than countless sim owners in SL Gor and their crafting of sim rules. He just happens to have read the books or at least enough of them to pass himself off as a gorean philosopher to those who don't know any better.

Most of the notecards he made on particular topics are pretty accurate. And his essays aren't at all bad either. He delved into particular topics more deeply than anyone else has since, I think. For example, even though I have seen plenty of blog-posts (and forum postings) about Gor, who has ever spend time to write essays about the Greek/Roman roots of the stuff that is in the books?


I will grant that very few if any the websites remain when these types of discussions were common but please don't put him on a pedestal as having done something unique because you are ignorant of previous efforts. He didn't. Even now his website would also be defunct like countless others if someone else had not shored that up and replicated the content.

His 'essays' on Gor's philosophy and such are rather dry and not always as insightful as one might hope, but they aren't full of shit either.


I find most of them to be quite full of shit and despite all of the disclaimers he does attempt to present his interpretations as fact.

His notecards etc. were not full of 'onlinisms', which some people may think. I don't think I ever saw him talk about scriberies, chillas, say aye or aii, have panther girls call men 'male', or stuff like that. Maybe they did contain some mistaken interpretationThat is stuff the online community came up with on it's own, not through his scrolls/notecards.


There are countless other onlinisms without the obvious ones you mention. They are more insidious in that they may have a tiny bit of a hook to the content in the books but the interpretation is flawed or it is without context or lacks the fact that often Norman uses analogy. Ever heard a slave greet in order of precedence every single role present? Thank Luther. Slave paces? You can thank him for that too. I'm not going to parse through it to show you countless other onlinisms because frankly this is such a flawed assumption on your part that I doubt it would matter.

If I were to guess where the current fad of bashing the Luther scrolls comes from, I'd guess this must be fuelled by a couple of factors:
- People resenting players 'knowing' about Gor through notecards and sources like the Luther scrolls, without having read the books. (The most important one).
- Some people abducting passages from the luther scrolls and other notecards and using them to 'justify' playing femlaw, etc.
- The 'tone' of the scrolls, in which the author lists what he feels are 'facts' from the books (without quotes and references) and presents them as such, which may annoy those that feel THEY themselves have a better grasp on those 'facts.
- The fact that they are old, associated with past style of life-styler dominated RP that most of SL Gor has emancipated itself from, that there are some new sources that may be better.
- Luther had an interest in the books that was sort of academic, clearly. This may have impressed those that regarded Gor in a life-styly way. But for pure Gor RP-ers, a lot of it is less relevant. Why would they care about comparisons between Norman's ideas and Nietzche's or Aristotle's?
- The fact that it has become fashionable to say they are crap, just as it became fashionable to bash Norman himself as the worst writer in the English language some years ago. People are herd-animals, after all.


Once again you show your ignorance about gor before it was vogue in SL. The Luther scrolls have always been considered to be crap by anyone who actually bothered to read more than a handful of the books and his essays. How many of these statements are applicable if you go back 10 years? The same opinion existed then. They were a poorly researched collection of essays designed for the lazy in order to RP in one way. His way. Three pilars of Gor my ass. Luther was ridiculed just as much as the Silk and Steel and their chillas and serveries so it isn't a fad.
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains.

Once upon a time... Kait

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