Kaitlin wrote:Just to clarify when you ask "what is your ideal" are you speaking based on the books or something we pull out of our hat. The other thread makes me to ask this question.
Hmmm, you do carry grudges, don't you? Anyway... this appears to be an entirely disingenuous question, since you have quite a reputation as someone with great reading comprehension skills. The post is in the Chronicles of Gor section, not in the gorean RP section. That might have served as a further hint (though none should have been needed). But in case it really wasn't clear: I am talking about the ideal of beauty of goreans, not of your ideal, my ideal or Draco's ideal. Whether or not this equates to Norman's ideal is an open question (though I think it does).
@ Draco: I am sure that the female players of SL gor will be happy to learn that and get rid of their non-porn-star trappings immediately.
Mynerva wrote:From what JN describes in his books the image of a porn star, playboy centerfold - or a high fashion model never came to my mind.
It definately did, with me. But that might well be in the eye of the beholder. And it also matters what KIND of model one is talking about. There is quite a difference. Here are some of the 'models' some people, including Norman grew up with/must have knows when he was writing first of the books:
Those pretty much represented the beauty ideals (for men, anyway, not so much for fashion) at the time Norman began writing the novels. Including centerfolds (though most of the above are primarily actresses).
Is there anything in the books that suggests that Norman (or goreans) had a different image of beauty? I am not aware of it. Of course, times changed. Fashion models often got thinner and thinner. Like the most famous early 'stick thin model' Twiggy:
And most likely, given that the fashion ideal was the most dominant ideal of beauty in media and such, the ideal of beauty catered towards men may have followed suit, somewhat (only somewhat, stick thin women never became a stapple for porn/adult magazines and such, of course, though wastes got smaller and hips less broad, I think. Clearly, Norman, like many men (and women), didn't care much for that development. But I see no reason in the books to think that he, or his goreans had a different ideal than the ideal Norman must have grown up with. I cannot recall strong 'urn-shapes' being described as the ideal of beauty (like they are/were in some cultures on earth), or a Rubenesque amount of 'flab' being described as particularly desirable. As far as I could tell, Goreans don't appreciate too much fat. And breasts... well... clearly, a fair size there does figure heavily in the gorean ideal of beauty. How modern of them.
By the way, as I recall, one of his female protagonists IS a former model.
I am happy to be corrected, though.
The 'ideal' of beauty - for a slave (and all women are slaves, so they say) is clearly defined in the books; small, wellturned, wide hipped with... Something about delicate love cradles. I took that to mean that as the place women's highs meet, with a small space or 'heart' (hence love) below her sex.
I'd agree. I don't think there is no diversity, but clearly, the ideal isn't a tall woman with a boyish figure, but rather, a voluptious girl with an ample figure. Which, on the other hand, is is a far stretch from, say, a late medieval or early modern European ideal of beauty, which typically included a more substantial layer of fat - perhaps adding to smoothness, legs considered 'fat' by modern standards (probably health-risk inducingly so according to health organisations), a very pale skin - Goreans don't mind a tan, clearly - wide round hips, a behind that isn't overly prominent (compared to the volume of flesh around it), an actual belly (yes, one that actually is visible, and even bulges out a little), moderately sized breasts (not small, but far, far removed from the Lara Croft variety), fairly slender arms (and no visible musculature), a round face, with fairly low cheek-bones (quite different from the modern ideal), a relatively weak chin, often a bit of a double chin below it (really quite different from what we would expect in a model), a fairly small mouth with relatively thin lips (certainly compared to our current Mick-Jagger-mouth-with-puffy-lips/pout-ideal). For example, this one:
Norman goes to great lengths to stress many differences between Gor and earth. He goes into many cultural aspects and differences. And often, he is quite 'anthropoligical' about it, describing small things in great detail. But in all that I read of him, I do not really recall him ever substantially describing a woman's beauty in such a way that would make it 'different' from our (or his or Tarl's or Jason's or even one of the girl protagonist) views of beauty, except for his obvious dislike of the waif-like fashion model trend.
Which is why, in that other thread, I said that that Norman (and thus Goreans) seem to have a fairly 'modern earth' ideal of beauty (modern as in... one of the modern age, which started a good while ago, not in the sense of ... recent). Not chinese, not ancient Greko-Roman, not renaissance, not native American or scandinavian, not Russian. Modern (and, well... American).