The Gorean ideal of beauty

Discussions about John Norman, and his books.

The gorean ideal of beauty is...

the same as our ideal of beauty.
1
2%
the same as our ideal of beauty.
1
2%
the same as the ideal of beauty in fashion.
0
No votes
the same as the ideal of beauty in fashion.
0
No votes
the same as the ideal of beauty in porn.
2
4%
the same as the ideal of beauty in porn.
2
4%
the same as the gentically universal ideal of beauty.
1
2%
the same as the gentically universal ideal of beauty.
1
2%
the same as that of Romans, vikings, feudal Japan,etc
2
4%
the same as that of Romans, vikings, feudal Japan,etc
2
4%
unique to Gor, it has no relation to ideals on earth.
6
12%
unique to Gor, it has no relation to ideals on earth.
6
12%
the same as John Lange's ideal of beauty.
12
23%
the same as John Lange's ideal of beauty.
12
23%
Other.
2
4%
Other.
2
4%
 
Total votes: 52
User avatar
Glaucon
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:07 am

The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Glaucon » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:55 pm

Following up a discussion from another thread, I thought it might be a good idea to throw out the question here: What, in your opinion, IS the gorean ideal of beauty? How does it compare to the ideal or ideals of beauty on earth, past or present?

Thrown in a (scientifically meaningless) poll too.

Those that would like to include pictures in their reply... please do.
:jiggles: :drool: :)
User avatar
Anarch Allegiere
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 am
SL Name: Anarch Allegiere

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:39 pm

Don't know... but if they want my attention in SL Gor they better look attractive in accordance to my own beauty ideal, and I've often found that my beauty ideal is unashamed similar to the beauty model of porn. Clean shaven everywhere, long clean nails, big breasts and ass.

I sometimes see slaves in SL Gor that are trying to have their avatar match a more 'natural' beauty au naturel, as you'd commonly come across the first woman outside in the streets... some of them can be attractive I guess, but mostly in personality then.
User avatar
Kaitlin
Posts: 3057
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:16 pm
SL Name: Kaitlin Eiren
Caste: RL ATM
Contact:

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Kaitlin » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:54 pm

Just to clarify when you ask "what is your ideal" are you speaking based on the books or something we pull out of our hat. The other thread makes me to ask this question.
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains.

Once upon a time... Kait
User avatar
Mynerva
Posts: 661
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:22 am
SL Name: *****

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Mynerva » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:11 pm

From what JN describes in his books the image of a porn star, playboy centerfold - or a high fashion model never came to my mind.

My own idea of beauty? I see it every time I look in the mirror :teehee:
Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden.
Rosa Luxemburg
Perse
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:10 am
SL Name: Perse

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Perse » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:43 pm

On my phone, so forgive any weird autocorrects.
The 'ideal' of beauty - for a slave (and all women are slaves, so they say) is clearly defined in the books; small, wellturned, wide hipped with... Something about delicate love cradles. I took that to mean that as the place women's highs meet, with a small space or 'heart' (hence love) below her sex.

To name a few SL Avis I think fit that mold: Damia Ree, Torrid, Minerva M, Ala, Affinty Jinx, Zuri and not to toot mah own horn but...

To each their own, ho. I find a lot of other bodies attractive but not what I think JNs ideal was/is.

eta: The women mentioned are just the women I've seen personally inworld. I'm sure there's more rounded slavies.
User avatar
Glaucon
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:07 am

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Glaucon » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:03 pm

Kaitlin wrote:Just to clarify when you ask "what is your ideal" are you speaking based on the books or something we pull out of our hat. The other thread makes me to ask this question.


Hmmm, you do carry grudges, don't you? Anyway... this appears to be an entirely disingenuous question, since you have quite a reputation as someone with great reading comprehension skills. The post is in the Chronicles of Gor section, not in the gorean RP section. That might have served as a further hint (though none should have been needed). But in case it really wasn't clear: I am talking about the ideal of beauty of goreans, not of your ideal, my ideal or Draco's ideal. Whether or not this equates to Norman's ideal is an open question (though I think it does).

@ Draco: I am sure that the female players of SL gor will be happy to learn that and get rid of their non-porn-star trappings immediately. :teehee:

Mynerva wrote:From what JN describes in his books the image of a porn star, playboy centerfold - or a high fashion model never came to my mind.


It definately did, with me. But that might well be in the eye of the beholder. And it also matters what KIND of model one is talking about. There is quite a difference. Here are some of the 'models' some people, including Norman grew up with/must have knows when he was writing first of the books:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Those pretty much represented the beauty ideals (for men, anyway, not so much for fashion) at the time Norman began writing the novels. Including centerfolds (though most of the above are primarily actresses).

Is there anything in the books that suggests that Norman (or goreans) had a different image of beauty? I am not aware of it. Of course, times changed. Fashion models often got thinner and thinner. Like the most famous early 'stick thin model' Twiggy:
Image

And most likely, given that the fashion ideal was the most dominant ideal of beauty in media and such, the ideal of beauty catered towards men may have followed suit, somewhat (only somewhat, stick thin women never became a stapple for porn/adult magazines and such, of course, though wastes got smaller and hips less broad, I think. Clearly, Norman, like many men (and women), didn't care much for that development. But I see no reason in the books to think that he, or his goreans had a different ideal than the ideal Norman must have grown up with. I cannot recall strong 'urn-shapes' being described as the ideal of beauty (like they are/were in some cultures on earth), or a Rubenesque amount of 'flab' being described as particularly desirable. As far as I could tell, Goreans don't appreciate too much fat. And breasts... well... clearly, a fair size there does figure heavily in the gorean ideal of beauty. How modern of them.

By the way, as I recall, one of his female protagonists IS a former model.

I am happy to be corrected, though.

The 'ideal' of beauty - for a slave (and all women are slaves, so they say) is clearly defined in the books; small, wellturned, wide hipped with... Something about delicate love cradles. I took that to mean that as the place women's highs meet, with a small space or 'heart' (hence love) below her sex.


I'd agree. I don't think there is no diversity, but clearly, the ideal isn't a tall woman with a boyish figure, but rather, a voluptious girl with an ample figure. Which, on the other hand, is is a far stretch from, say, a late medieval or early modern European ideal of beauty, which typically included a more substantial layer of fat - perhaps adding to smoothness, legs considered 'fat' by modern standards (probably health-risk inducingly so according to health organisations), a very pale skin - Goreans don't mind a tan, clearly - wide round hips, a behind that isn't overly prominent (compared to the volume of flesh around it), an actual belly (yes, one that actually is visible, and even bulges out a little), moderately sized breasts (not small, but far, far removed from the Lara Croft variety), fairly slender arms (and no visible musculature), a round face, with fairly low cheek-bones (quite different from the modern ideal), a relatively weak chin, often a bit of a double chin below it (really quite different from what we would expect in a model), a fairly small mouth with relatively thin lips (certainly compared to our current Mick-Jagger-mouth-with-puffy-lips/pout-ideal). For example, this one:
Image
Norman goes to great lengths to stress many differences between Gor and earth. He goes into many cultural aspects and differences. And often, he is quite 'anthropoligical' about it, describing small things in great detail. But in all that I read of him, I do not really recall him ever substantially describing a woman's beauty in such a way that would make it 'different' from our (or his or Tarl's or Jason's or even one of the girl protagonist) views of beauty, except for his obvious dislike of the waif-like fashion model trend.

Which is why, in that other thread, I said that that Norman (and thus Goreans) seem to have a fairly 'modern earth' ideal of beauty (modern as in... one of the modern age, which started a good while ago, not in the sense of ... recent). Not chinese, not ancient Greko-Roman, not renaissance, not native American or scandinavian, not Russian. Modern (and, well... American).
User avatar
Kaitlin
Posts: 3057
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:16 pm
SL Name: Kaitlin Eiren
Caste: RL ATM
Contact:

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Kaitlin » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:14 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Kaitlin wrote:Just to clarify when you ask "what is your ideal" are you speaking based on the books or something we pull out of our hat. The other thread makes me to ask this question.


Hmmm, you do carry grudges, don't you? Anyway... this appears to be an entirely disingenuous question, since you have quite a reputation as someone with great reading comprehension skills. The post is in the Chronicles of Gor section, not in the gorean RP section. That might have served as a further hint (though none should have been needed). But in case it really wasn't clear: I am talking about the ideal of beauty of goreans, not of your ideal, my ideal or Draco's ideal. Whether or not this equates to Norman's ideal is an open question (though I think it does).


No grugde at all since the reason for my question was the placement of the thread. You could have possibly meant your own interpretation of modern vs historical beauty which doesn't seem to jive very well with the books. That doesn't have anything at all to do with gorean RP so I think my RC skills are still intact and there was some gray area here...at least for me. Why bother with a long winded "book" answer if that wasn't the intent given the OP that drove this question. But thanks for clearing that up so I'll work on a "book" answer.
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains.

Once upon a time... Kait
User avatar
Kaitlin
Posts: 3057
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:16 pm
SL Name: Kaitlin Eiren
Caste: RL ATM
Contact:

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Kaitlin » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:01 am

Glaucon wrote:Following up a discussion from another thread, I thought it might be a good idea to throw out the question here: What, in your opinion, IS the gorean ideal of beauty? How does it compare to the ideal or ideals of beauty on earth, past or present?

Thrown in a (scientifically meaningless) poll too.

Those that would like to include pictures in their reply... please do.
:jiggles: :drool: :)


It would be false to say that JN doesn't speak about slender girls in the books or even tall slaves but there is a way that he describes a "short" and "curvaceous" slave consistently in the books that makes it clear what his ideal is for beauty. In gor 'tasty pudding' or the ideal beauty would be a slave with the following attributes: Dark long hair, short, wide hips, luscious lips and full breasts (even if smaller)

I don't find this matches well to the modern standard of beauty at all particularly if we are speaking about an American standard of beauty. Height is a defining feature of most models even those who might have more curves than lets say a "twiggy". I also don't believe the author is speaking about a European standard of beauty where "curvy" tends to be beyond plump. Slaves would be expertly dieted and exercised.

She was excitingly curvaceous, a dream of pleasure, such a sight as might induce a strong man to howl with joy, to dance with triumph. (Magicians of Gor)

I've added a few more in the spoiler but similar descriptions appear throughout the books.

Prime Bbcode Spoiler Show Prime Bbcode Spoiler:
We turned to regard the wet, shivering girl. Like most girls, either of Earth or Gor, she was short, curvaceous and luscious, sweetly slung.
“She is nice,” said Callimachus.
“She is a pretty bauble,” I granted him. The girl put down her head, smiling.
(Guardsmen of Gor)

Both slaves were sweetly bodied. Each had marvelously flared hips. I found it hard to take my eyes from them. They were among the gifts which Bila Huruma had sent ahead to his projected companion, Tende. I smiled and licked my lips.
(Explorers of Gor)

Immediately one of the girls, a sensuous, widely hipped, sweetly breasted slave, half walking, half dancing, to the music, swirled amongst the guests and then presented herself particularly before the burly fellow, moving before him, back and forth, facing him, turning about.
...
She was short-legged and plump, juicy, as it is said, with a marvelous love cradle. Such often make superb slaves. They commonly bring high prices in the markets.
(Vagabonds of Gor)

A tall thin girl, then, with brown hair about her shoulders, came forward. On Earth such a type, of such a structure, and with her beauty, I surmised, might have become a high-fashion model. I indicated that she might return to the line.
“Demet,” said the woman.
A short, dark-skinned girl, plump and meaty, one about whose femaleness there could be no doubt, with long, swirling black hair, spun forward and writhed before me. She had soft, full, pouting lips, of the sort that seem made for the raping of the master’s kiss.
(Mercenaries of Gor)

We then proceeded to the next cage. It was the last one which was currently occupied. This girl, like Mina, was a sweetly bodied slut, with luscious swelling breasts, a stocky, but considerably narrower waist, and wide hips, nursing a marvelous love cradle in which a man might lose himself with pleasure. She, too, like Mina, was nicely thighed. She, too, like Mina, was a brunette. She, too, like Mina, wore a close-fitting steel collar.
(Mercenaries of Gor)

There was screaming from within the tent, the screaming of Thorgard’s silken girls, many of them short, plump, lusciously bodied. Some were chained by the left ankle.
(Marauders of Gor)
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains.

Once upon a time... Kait
User avatar
Mynerva
Posts: 661
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:22 am
SL Name: *****

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Mynerva » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:42 am

Kaitlin wrote:
Mynerva wrote:From what JN describes in his books the image of a porn star, playboy centerfold - or a high fashion model never came to my mind.


It definately did, with me. But that might well be in the eye of the beholder. And it also matters what KIND of model one is talking about. There is quite a difference. Here are some of the 'models' some people, including Norman grew up with/must have knows when he was writing first of the books:

.



I actually agree with you here. The pictures you posted - of models or actresses of times gone by - they would fit the ideal of a gorean slave. I was thinking about models of today. They are too tall, too skinny, too made up. I see the gorean ideal as described by JN as a very natural beauty - even if slaves did use cosmetics - and not women made up and photoshoped to the hilt - the way models are now presented in magazines.

Lets face it - the way JN describes his women in the books - if those women went into any agency today, they would most likely be told to go on a diet.
Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden.
Rosa Luxemburg
User avatar
Glaucon
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:07 am

Re: The Gorean ideal of beauty

Postby Glaucon » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:51 am

Did a long reply, complete with pictures, but it got eaten. Quick summary.

I think that the fashion model ideal isn't really 'the ideal' for us, today (not for most men, certainly, probably not for most women - see the link to that article I posted in that other thread), but a peculiar ideal in it's own right, that dominates women's magazines and such. Not really what most people consider attractive. I think that what Norman describes about Gor isn't the modern fashion ideal, but pretty mutch a typical modern male fantasy ideal.

A good indicator of a prevalent beauty ideal is to look at what women seek to have altered about themselves. Well... a porn actress has a boob job (which matches Norman's preference for ample breasts), and a lip-job (which matches the luscious lips preference of Norman) and she strives for an ample figure, while staying slim (which is exactly how Norman describes things for slaves). Large breasts are far from a universal beauty ideal. Certainly, luscious, full lips aren't (that one seems to be a peculiar 20th century thing... Julia Roberts, Angela Jolie, etc.). A flat stomach isn't either. Other cultures on earth, removed in time, mostly (because the 'western' ideal is influing pretty much the whole world now) had distinctly different ideals. There is really nothing that you can 'match' the gorean preferences with, except that of the male 'ideal' (not the fashion one) of the 20th century in western culture.

Return to “Chronicles of Counter Earth”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron