GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Is there skill involved in becoming a good GM meter combattant?

Yes.
33
42%
Yes.
33
42%
No.
6
8%
No.
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78
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Torolf Fenrirson
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Torolf Fenrirson » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:41 am

One of the reasons I liked LCS so much was that it had a habit of leveling the playing field. Bad fighters became better almost immediately. Good fighters got knocked down a peg, but with practice they were back on top. It made fights much more challenging and interesting imo. Archery became a skill all it's own, where aiming really made a huge difference, far more so than connection speed. Weapon ranges were made significant enough to give rise to weapon styles and strategies that just aren't important in GM, where the ranges are more narrow, and using anything but a sword tends to get you killed. Blocking in LCS made the lone 1v1 fight take alot of time, which meant group formations and tactics became viable...

I really miss LCS. Damn you Patrick! DAMN YOU!
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Glaucon
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Glaucon » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:47 am

Anarch is right, of course (well, so are others, but I am commenting on Anarch), but I do think that SL gor combat allows for some diversity of fighting roles. Some people are good at using cover or sniping from a distance. Some are very good at using ground elevations. Some excel at running around hitting others and dodging on flat surfaces and some are great when the bow-fighting is quite close-up. Even within the fairly simplistic bow fighting business (and I still wish that there was a more interesting combat system in SL gor), there can be different 'tactics' fitting different people.
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Frevet
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Frevet » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:52 am

To me it isn't comparing apples to oranges. It is both PvP. Player versus Player. However, SL PvP requires a LOT less from you to be good at it than other, established PvP games.

Just as easy example: Be it WoW, HoN, Bloodline Champions or any other game, every character has a bunch of abilties you have to-know-, know how and when they have to be used, how they affect you etc. pp.

In SL, that is lacking. Besides the differences between the weapons and splash/no splash, there's not much to consider.

And well, I dunno, but I happen to be friends with quite a few of the good people from Skerry and other places. No one ever did NOT admit that SL PvP (or lets say, Gor PvP especially) requires less skill than other games. I raided with them and usually...it was: "Gogogogogoogogo, run there and there, FALL back!, gogogoogoggo, run there!" and 5 minutes later everyone else was down. I never experienced it as skill but rather: Swarm mentality and rushing everyone over.

Gor combat is very simplistic compared to other PvP games, even within SecondLife itself. I've pewpew'ed on three different combatmeters in SL for quite some time, and the GM was the most predictable one.


@ Glaucon: For me, skill is something that is partly learnable, and partly based upon talent. In SL PvP, you don't need as much talent as you do for most real PvP games. It mostly depends on practice alone. Your brain has to process FAR fewer informations during a fight in SL than during a fight in most PvP games that I ever played.

@ Bear: Irony isn't chestpounding.
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HorizonNinetails
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby HorizonNinetails » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:59 am

Frevet wrote:To me it isn't comparing apples to oranges. It is both PvP. Player versus Player. However, SL PvP requires a LOT less from you to be good at it than other, established PvP games.

Just as easy example: Be it WoW, HoN, Bloodline Champions or any other game, every character has a bunch of abilties you have to-know-, know how and when they have to be used, how they affect you etc. pp.

@ Bear: Irony isn't chestpounding.


Completely disagree on both counts.

You rambled on about your characters and it added nothing to the convo.

You can have a crapload of abilities, but when a game can take months to get good - really good - then I would say there has to be skill involved. I dont think its a library of information, but rowing takes skill and practice, and there isnt an endless amount of information to know there.

Its like arguing that Hockey is an easy game after playing a table top version of the old push rod games.
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Frevet
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Frevet » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:07 am

HorizonNinetails wrote:
Frevet wrote:To me it isn't comparing apples to oranges. It is both PvP. Player versus Player. However, SL PvP requires a LOT less from you to be good at it than other, established PvP games.

Just as easy example: Be it WoW, HoN, Bloodline Champions or any other game, every character has a bunch of abilties you have to-know-, know how and when they have to be used, how they affect you etc. pp.

@ Bear: Irony isn't chestpounding.


Completely disagree on both counts.

You rambled on about your characters and it added nothing to the convo.

You can have a crapload of abilities, but when a game can take months to get good - really good - then I would say there has to be skill involved. I dont think its a library of information, but rowing takes skill and practice, and there isnt an endless amount of information to know there.

Its like arguing that Hockey is an easy game after playing a table top version of the old push rod games.


I didn't say there is NO skill involved, just a whole lot less than for other genres.

I rambled to provide an example. I wasn't particularly skilled on my hunter but was decent enough with that class because I practiced some...and because it was easy peasy.

It's the same with Gor PvP: You can get pretty good at it without being particularly skilled in PvP in general. It simply requires less talent/skill to be good than other games. That is all I said. And compared to -some- games it requires next to nothing.

Feel free to disagre though, I don't really care enough to not agree to disagree. :)
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Glaucon
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Glaucon » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:11 pm

I think you confuse skill with intelligence. :)

Besides... being good as something is a relative thing. If something is fairly easy, you need to be really good at it to be better than others. So even if using bows if fairly easy (with the splash and all), that doesn't mean that someone quite good at it (able to beat most others doing the same thing) needs less skill at it.
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Architeuthis
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Architeuthis » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:17 pm

Torolf Fenrirson wrote:One of the reasons I liked LCS so much was that it had a habit of leveling the playing field. Bad fighters became better almost immediately. Good fighters got knocked down a peg, but with practice they were back on top. It made fights much more challenging and interesting imo. Archery became a skill all it's own, where aiming really made a huge difference, far more so than connection speed. Weapon ranges were made significant enough to give rise to weapon styles and strategies that just aren't important in GM, where the ranges are more narrow, and using anything but a sword tends to get you killed. Blocking in LCS made the lone 1v1 fight take alot of time, which meant group formations and tactics became viable...

I really miss LCS. Damn you Patrick! DAMN YOU!


I liked the idea of the LCS more than the execution. In the end people gravitate to what is best for them. I really liked the GCM meter too and am not sure what happened there. The GM though still has its merits. Direct only in my opinion was a step in the right direction though I hear there are exploits with shields on that (havent tested them yet to see if they are real or not).

I think as SL Gor continues to evolve eventually something better than the GM will come along and people will switch. There have been too many games with innovative combat systems which have come out since the GM was created.

Newer players used to Skyrim, WoW, Mount & Blade etc. who try to pick up GM combat are probably underwhelmed by the overly simplistic system and way overpowered bows. To keep new blood coming in to Gor the combat system needs to evolve as well. I do understand that with Second Life it is much harder to write a closed system type of application but I think it has to happen and it probably will soon enough.

I'd like to see a meter which has stricter controls and uses some things from RLV for example such as no mimimap, TP in only at certain points etc.
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Jenny1919 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:07 pm

Nothing will ever be perfect in secondlife it wont be like your favorite first person shooter... Reason GM is so successful its simple and anyone can come in pick up a meter adapt to it quickly and have fun.. Other meters failed because they made them too complex ... I thought LCS was a decent meter but went too far in certain areas others it was good at... Personally I liked the fact a head shot gave you a lot more damage than a hit in the leg maybe was bit too low id want maybe 50% or so damage with a headshot cause lets face it you wont last long getting hit in the head.. If GM could do that then they could do limited ammo too... Either way when I tried LCS the parity was worse than GM.. A skilled fighter like me id easily beat anyone in lcs seemed kinda lame if you as me..... GCM failed well because the creator has bad history of questionable behavior with many and I noticed several anonomlies in combat where meters wouldn't take hits...

Blackwolf wrote:I'd like to see a meter which has stricter controls and uses some things from RLV for example such as no mimimap, TP in only at certain points etc.


GM has RLV already... why don't you or anybody use it now? last I looked only maybe 3-4 gor sim have rlv on... only maybe 300-400 rlv players.. Nobody wants it.. The options are there nobody uses them.. Not pointing fingers at you personally just in general why wont you use RLV or 90% of gor
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Meriah » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:30 pm

Anarch Allegiere wrote:If a sim lags the lag will be the same for everyone. (This is called sim FPS)

If your computer however isn't as good as someone elses you might have bad cases of "slideshow" action sometimes, where the other person will see his visuals smoothly still. So while you have to try and fight with 2 frame updates per second, the other person will be able to smoothly aim his cursor at you.

Another problem with low personal FPS is that it also lags your input most of the time. If your PC is doing all the effort in the world to be able to keep up with the graphics it has to show (and can only manage to give you a slideshow as result) it'll also delay keyboard and mouse input. So you won't be swinging your sword as much or with as good timing as someone who has a better machine.

So sim FPS is the same for everyone, if a sim lags out it'll cause the same lag / inability to control your character for everyone, no advantages or disadvantages for anyone here. But if it's an issue of your machine not able to keep up with the graphics, personal FPS, then you'll be at a disadvantage against someone with a good machine who can smoothly position, point and time his attacks against you who is stuck in a series of slow slideshow graphics.



I agree here. Even if the sim has slowed down the ability to aim is diminished by lower personal frame rate not sim frame rate. With the the exception of bad lag spikes I don't think sim frame rate is too big an issue.

There have been times where lag has spelled certain disaster for me. In one case I was crossing a sim and got attacked by the town gate guards. No sweat I think! Normally it would not have been bad but I could not move from the spot fast enough to avoid the impending rain of arrows. I was on a treadmill and the arrows kept crawling toward me. The situation got even more amusing because when finally got behind something to hide, the server rewound me and put me right back in front of the arrows. About 5 of them were hanging in the air waiting for me to reappear. Which leads me to the believe that when sim speed is a factor, the advantage is almost always afforded to the defender.
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Faust Adrastus » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:52 am

In raids, it's all about the mind games.

In bow combat, it's a twitch reaction shooter.

In sword combat, it's a bit of both.

There is skill involved, obviously, in all three counts.

GM is simple, but in that simplicity is also nearly endless complexity. Tetris is a simple game, but those who play it at its highest level are akin to wizards.

If you think there is no skill involved in GM combat, then you're simply just not any good at it. Beyond that, you're bitter about not being good at it.

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