GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Is there skill involved in becoming a good GM meter combattant?

Yes.
33
42%
Yes.
33
42%
No.
6
8%
No.
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78
Hawt Sommer

Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Hawt Sommer » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:23 am

Obviously there is skill, and skill can definitely make or break the results of your combat results.

However on top of that- there are factors that will enhance or diminish your rating in the end that are not skill related.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:27 am

It's comparing apples and oranges. It's two completely different combat mechanics, two different gameplays. I don't find playing PvP on my warlock more difficult than trying to raid in SL Gor.

It's like going to the counter-strike forums and reading how WoW is a shitty game with no skill because you can auto-target etc. It's a load of biased nonsense obviusly. Although there is truth behind it obviously that GM meter combat is very simplistic and this in the end comes down to gameplay design theoretics.

When you have a game that is very simple you're gonna have a bigger spread of how good people are at playing that particular game.

Say for you example your game is to "jump the highest", you're gonna have people who can jump pretty high and those who can't and those who will practice to jump higher still. And that is where the skill-spectrum ends and fights will be won simply by those who jump highest.

If you adde extra depth to the game by for example saying the rules of the game become "being able to jump the highest" or "shout the loudest!" there's going to be a more complex approach of gameplay. Some will win because they're gods at shouting, some because they're pro at jumping and more because they're good at a combination of both, but you're giving people a different way of winning if they're not good at the other.

This is how adding depth and complexity to gameplay can even out the balance and engage a wider audience. Something that perhaps is missing in GM combat, because it all depends greatly on only three things:
- Bow proficiency
- Positioning
- Teamwork
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Torolf Fenrirson
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Torolf Fenrirson » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:41 am

One of the reasons I liked LCS so much was that it had a habit of leveling the playing field. Bad fighters became better almost immediately. Good fighters got knocked down a peg, but with practice they were back on top. It made fights much more challenging and interesting imo. Archery became a skill all it's own, where aiming really made a huge difference, far more so than connection speed. Weapon ranges were made significant enough to give rise to weapon styles and strategies that just aren't important in GM, where the ranges are more narrow, and using anything but a sword tends to get you killed. Blocking in LCS made the lone 1v1 fight take alot of time, which meant group formations and tactics became viable...

I really miss LCS. Damn you Patrick! DAMN YOU!
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Glaucon
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Glaucon » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:47 am

Anarch is right, of course (well, so are others, but I am commenting on Anarch), but I do think that SL gor combat allows for some diversity of fighting roles. Some people are good at using cover or sniping from a distance. Some are very good at using ground elevations. Some excel at running around hitting others and dodging on flat surfaces and some are great when the bow-fighting is quite close-up. Even within the fairly simplistic bow fighting business (and I still wish that there was a more interesting combat system in SL gor), there can be different 'tactics' fitting different people.
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Frevet
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Frevet » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:52 am

To me it isn't comparing apples to oranges. It is both PvP. Player versus Player. However, SL PvP requires a LOT less from you to be good at it than other, established PvP games.

Just as easy example: Be it WoW, HoN, Bloodline Champions or any other game, every character has a bunch of abilties you have to-know-, know how and when they have to be used, how they affect you etc. pp.

In SL, that is lacking. Besides the differences between the weapons and splash/no splash, there's not much to consider.

And well, I dunno, but I happen to be friends with quite a few of the good people from Skerry and other places. No one ever did NOT admit that SL PvP (or lets say, Gor PvP especially) requires less skill than other games. I raided with them and usually...it was: "Gogogogogoogogo, run there and there, FALL back!, gogogoogoggo, run there!" and 5 minutes later everyone else was down. I never experienced it as skill but rather: Swarm mentality and rushing everyone over.

Gor combat is very simplistic compared to other PvP games, even within SecondLife itself. I've pewpew'ed on three different combatmeters in SL for quite some time, and the GM was the most predictable one.


@ Glaucon: For me, skill is something that is partly learnable, and partly based upon talent. In SL PvP, you don't need as much talent as you do for most real PvP games. It mostly depends on practice alone. Your brain has to process FAR fewer informations during a fight in SL than during a fight in most PvP games that I ever played.

@ Bear: Irony isn't chestpounding.
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HorizonNinetails
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby HorizonNinetails » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:59 am

Frevet wrote:To me it isn't comparing apples to oranges. It is both PvP. Player versus Player. However, SL PvP requires a LOT less from you to be good at it than other, established PvP games.

Just as easy example: Be it WoW, HoN, Bloodline Champions or any other game, every character has a bunch of abilties you have to-know-, know how and when they have to be used, how they affect you etc. pp.

@ Bear: Irony isn't chestpounding.


Completely disagree on both counts.

You rambled on about your characters and it added nothing to the convo.

You can have a crapload of abilities, but when a game can take months to get good - really good - then I would say there has to be skill involved. I dont think its a library of information, but rowing takes skill and practice, and there isnt an endless amount of information to know there.

Its like arguing that Hockey is an easy game after playing a table top version of the old push rod games.
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Frevet
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Frevet » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:07 am

HorizonNinetails wrote:
Frevet wrote:To me it isn't comparing apples to oranges. It is both PvP. Player versus Player. However, SL PvP requires a LOT less from you to be good at it than other, established PvP games.

Just as easy example: Be it WoW, HoN, Bloodline Champions or any other game, every character has a bunch of abilties you have to-know-, know how and when they have to be used, how they affect you etc. pp.

@ Bear: Irony isn't chestpounding.


Completely disagree on both counts.

You rambled on about your characters and it added nothing to the convo.

You can have a crapload of abilities, but when a game can take months to get good - really good - then I would say there has to be skill involved. I dont think its a library of information, but rowing takes skill and practice, and there isnt an endless amount of information to know there.

Its like arguing that Hockey is an easy game after playing a table top version of the old push rod games.


I didn't say there is NO skill involved, just a whole lot less than for other genres.

I rambled to provide an example. I wasn't particularly skilled on my hunter but was decent enough with that class because I practiced some...and because it was easy peasy.

It's the same with Gor PvP: You can get pretty good at it without being particularly skilled in PvP in general. It simply requires less talent/skill to be good than other games. That is all I said. And compared to -some- games it requires next to nothing.

Feel free to disagre though, I don't really care enough to not agree to disagree. :)
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Glaucon
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Glaucon » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:11 pm

I think you confuse skill with intelligence. :)

Besides... being good as something is a relative thing. If something is fairly easy, you need to be really good at it to be better than others. So even if using bows if fairly easy (with the splash and all), that doesn't mean that someone quite good at it (able to beat most others doing the same thing) needs less skill at it.
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Architeuthis
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Architeuthis » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:17 pm

Torolf Fenrirson wrote:One of the reasons I liked LCS so much was that it had a habit of leveling the playing field. Bad fighters became better almost immediately. Good fighters got knocked down a peg, but with practice they were back on top. It made fights much more challenging and interesting imo. Archery became a skill all it's own, where aiming really made a huge difference, far more so than connection speed. Weapon ranges were made significant enough to give rise to weapon styles and strategies that just aren't important in GM, where the ranges are more narrow, and using anything but a sword tends to get you killed. Blocking in LCS made the lone 1v1 fight take alot of time, which meant group formations and tactics became viable...

I really miss LCS. Damn you Patrick! DAMN YOU!


I liked the idea of the LCS more than the execution. In the end people gravitate to what is best for them. I really liked the GCM meter too and am not sure what happened there. The GM though still has its merits. Direct only in my opinion was a step in the right direction though I hear there are exploits with shields on that (havent tested them yet to see if they are real or not).

I think as SL Gor continues to evolve eventually something better than the GM will come along and people will switch. There have been too many games with innovative combat systems which have come out since the GM was created.

Newer players used to Skyrim, WoW, Mount & Blade etc. who try to pick up GM combat are probably underwhelmed by the overly simplistic system and way overpowered bows. To keep new blood coming in to Gor the combat system needs to evolve as well. I do understand that with Second Life it is much harder to write a closed system type of application but I think it has to happen and it probably will soon enough.

I'd like to see a meter which has stricter controls and uses some things from RLV for example such as no mimimap, TP in only at certain points etc.
Jenny1919
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Jenny1919 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:07 pm

Nothing will ever be perfect in secondlife it wont be like your favorite first person shooter... Reason GM is so successful its simple and anyone can come in pick up a meter adapt to it quickly and have fun.. Other meters failed because they made them too complex ... I thought LCS was a decent meter but went too far in certain areas others it was good at... Personally I liked the fact a head shot gave you a lot more damage than a hit in the leg maybe was bit too low id want maybe 50% or so damage with a headshot cause lets face it you wont last long getting hit in the head.. If GM could do that then they could do limited ammo too... Either way when I tried LCS the parity was worse than GM.. A skilled fighter like me id easily beat anyone in lcs seemed kinda lame if you as me..... GCM failed well because the creator has bad history of questionable behavior with many and I noticed several anonomlies in combat where meters wouldn't take hits...

Blackwolf wrote:I'd like to see a meter which has stricter controls and uses some things from RLV for example such as no mimimap, TP in only at certain points etc.


GM has RLV already... why don't you or anybody use it now? last I looked only maybe 3-4 gor sim have rlv on... only maybe 300-400 rlv players.. Nobody wants it.. The options are there nobody uses them.. Not pointing fingers at you personally just in general why wont you use RLV or 90% of gor

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