GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Is there skill involved in becoming a good GM meter combattant?

Yes.
33
42%
Yes.
33
42%
No.
6
8%
No.
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78
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Anarch Allegiere
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GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:07 am

A statement that I see made every now and then:

"You don't need any skills to press your WASD keys and your mouse a bit. It has nothing to do with 'skill'."

What is people's view on this?

I personally find it a bit of a baseless statement and I've suspicions the line is often more meant as a way of trolling than anything.

But I think that most of the people who've spent a good time sparring and training will argue that it does indeed take time and practice to learn how to become better at the GM meter and all the machine gun arrow combat that comes with it.

But even in terms of melee combat it's a matter of training and getting used to the little nuances. When you're fighting against another trained melee fighter and you make a mistake, swinging at the wrong time, not blocking in time, you usually know you've messed up and the chance of recovering is small.

A few other statements that bother me:
"It's just about who has the fastest machine."
This is true up to a certain point in my opinion. If your machine is not capable of handling 40+ avatars and hundreds of arrows flying across your screen in SL then you're gonna be at a great disadvantage when your lagging as is being confronted with someone who can smoothly keep fighting through this all. But I'm not of the opinion that it's the ultimate deciding factor, and especially not if it's just about small skirmishes between a handful of people on low population sim.

"It's just about who can click his mouse the fastest"
I'm not even sure where this idea comes from, but just to make it clear there are minimum delays programmed into the GM weapon standards. No matter if you click your mouse button 20 times a second or 5 times a second, your sword will only swing once every 0.55 seconds due to the scripted swing delays. (For more information: http://gm.mivabe.nl/standarts.php )

So unless you're like a really elderly person with artritis in his fingers the GM meter should never come across as just a system that rewards whomever clicks the fastest.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:16 am

Below some reactions of other men on the subject:

XXXX: Skill is beyond physical. The statement is inane.
YYYY: It doesn't take any skill to bounce a ball or drive around in a circle 500 times either.
Ice Bradley
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Ice Bradley » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:17 am

That statement is made by people who has no clue on how much training it takes to become good.
there's those thinking more or less less is more
but if less is more how you're keeping score?
Means for every point you make
your level drops
kinda like its starting from the top
you can't do that...
Vylixan
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Vylixan » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:22 am

Yes there is a skill involved. Clicking a button is not the same as knowing what to do. You need to keep practicing or you will loose it.
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Charlotte
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Charlotte » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:25 am

Back in... hm 2008? I and my then-slave would go OOC and play around with combat meters. I don't know if it was GM or other, it probably was.

I, being a gamer since childhood tend to have great hand-mouse-screen co-ordination, my then-slave was new to 'gaming' (other than things like solitaire) and tended to be crap at it.

Neither of us spent more time than the other playing it.

So, yes, there is a skill involved much as there's a skill to typing faster.


But unless the GM system has altered massively, Im pretty certain 'aim and click' is a general 'gaming' or 'computer using' skill, not so much a specific skill.

Contrarily, when Trenzos (Cor) got a new internet connection, he started practicing in the Ar arena, and started winning, which suggests there is a skill...
Never underestimate the power of the angry mod even if you are a trained fighter. -Vyl
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Melchior Wardell
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Melchior Wardell » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:36 am

There is a skill involved, however there are also things involved that might change the odds too. Are they to overcome by for instance a lot of practice - I am sure they are.

Now I do lag quite quickly with the connection I have and with it will never be in the range of the best metered combatants, this makes it hard to feel I even have a chance.

Thankfully - my preference of this 'game' isn't the meter - so I don't have to beat myself up over it. Next to it there is always roleplay even when you loose.

So Yes there is skill in it - which can be obtained by lots of practice. But to say it is only skill isn't fair either.
Violetta Daviau
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Violetta Daviau » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:59 am

In my opinion there is surely skill involved. That is - for me - not the question.

Yet I would admit that the words "... doesn't take skill" did slip my lips (or: typing fingers) already.

Why is that so?

Because I differ implicitly skill and skill.

The skill you need for GM meter battle aside of a gamer mouse, strong PC, stable connection and best a gaming place located within the USA, is mostly skill based on physical training with some understanding of the implementation/rules.
This is sportive skill, a tennis or baseball player must time his swing exactly as well, has only a fraction of an eyeblink to have the bat arrive in the right position during his swing. Then he needs to know the rules of the game and some tactical things.

On the other side I see the skill that involves immagination, realism, theme knowhow (Gor), visual grasping oneself, other players, the entire surroundings of camps and sims, and to incorporate all that into an exciting and stylish emote. The skill to form a chessgame within one's own and the playpartner's head that is equal but in which each of the two play their turns in the hopes to e.g. overcome the other. This can well be seen e.g. in good roleplayed battles or the try to break a captive without violence.

The later is much more enjoyable for me while I do also enjoy the first now and then, but if, then clearly only if the second is not going on. In other words, I hate to have deep and exciting Gorean roleplay being ended by someone appeared and forcing a sportive competition on me. Raids happen and are rarely coordinated upfront, I learned to live with that, yet e.g. single or twoperson tagteam show off pew pew people are a pest really, people that greet me or else pretend the desire to enter a roleplay with me, then just shoot while I type my response are annoying me to a level where I really lose all will to roleplay with them.

Well I guess I drifted off from the skill discussion a bit, but the entire metered conflict topic appears lately a huge topic for BTB anyways. BTB grossly seems to move to a level on which they only accept conflict play if they have any type of control over it, e.g. roleplaybased instead of sportive.

Back to skill perhaps. I have seen people that are very skilled with the GM meter combat engine. They have hotkeyed all they need, around the WASD keys so they can swap the fastest between sword, spear or bow for range and each differed stances or arrow drop angles as needed, while being able to dive into an enemy and back out between the enemy's swings or moving in a way that barely any arrow can really hit them even if it comes from behind. Applause to them, it is impressive yes, no question, and I am at times jealous that I do not have such skill.
Usually though, they already disqualified for me since they broke a nice deep ongoing roleplay by their pew pew approach or disqualify after as many or most of those people I have met were lousy players, either unwilling to add captive play at all, or delivering the lowest level of standard play, e.g. a quick round of girlfriend sex with the captive, an hour heavy saddism on the cross before being shipped/sold, or caged and left alone, in worst case the brainmaniaced desire to play a highly saddistic and ungorean kill.
If such a roleplay unwilling combat top sportsperson approaches me, just to down me, then showing no will to RP or no immagination to do anything interesting, I am asking myself why they approached me in the first place. I do not play in their league when it comes to GM combat, I am no challenge for them, and showing off on me has no value. If those people then even cheat, I see even less any fame resulting from their win. Not even if they only accompany their average level group on raids against other average level groups to ensure that they win, I see much gain for them.

ETA: As well, in my opinion, GM combat sportsmen look rediculous in the game when performing their sport. Other sportspeople look better, tennis players, dancers, martial arts on TV or RL, even chess or counterstrike combatants...
Last edited by Violetta Daviau on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Conall
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Conall » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:12 am

There is skill involved, who says different has no clue about the effort one has to pay to become better, good or excellent.
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Victor.
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Victor. » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:35 am

To keep it brief and brawny:

Melee combat: Takes a base skill but plateaus rather quickly. Most fighters become equally good rather quickly with these little decisive factors narrowing down to RNG for the most part (i.e.: Damn blocked a mili-second too late, looked like I was way out of range on my end, etc.)

I dare say most people don't even use stances these days, and those who do cycle between closest & quickest and farthest & slowest swing times.

Bow: Takes a lot more practice to become good and I think there are a lot more layers of good. Some people seem rather great at beating the arc - others just exceed at reading the others movements & might have that little bit of luck that some call intuition - doing very well with direct hits.

It's definitely a steeper learning curve imho. And I'd say people who ARE good at it, definitely have huge advantages over others, especially in 1 on X situations. Which looks rather grim in most cases with melee. No matter how much dolts you're facing.

At the same time - I rather play FPS games if I want to be competitive than SL Gor combat to be honest. It's a lot more complex in almost ANY case and it's just not as glitchy.
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Danika Stenvaag
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Re: GM meter - There is no skill involved?

Postby Danika Stenvaag » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:47 am

skill yes absolutely...

i also tend to think men are better at computer fighting games than women, maybe coz they've been doing it longer, are more focused and interested in this sort of thing. when i see a single panther or femlaw with an avi that looks like a cross between a vampire and atilla the hun taking down an entire tribe or army, my instincts tell me she, er umm, he has a doinker between his legs and maybe some hud help too... frustrating how some people can cheat the gm meter... but i digress...

when i first came to sl gor, i hated shooter games. i loathed any kind of combat game and felt i had better things to do with my time like go play out in the sunshine, go surfing, skating, anything but sit in a dark room in front of a computer shooting at pixels. i made fun of my then boyfriend for wasting vast amounts of his time on wow kind of games.

but i also don't like rping on my knees so i made it my business to learn and train with the meanest baddest kick ass fighters in gor. and i trained and trained and picked it up quickly. for me it came easier. i'm young. my reflexes are quick. and i have excellent eye and hand coordination. i'm naturally inclined to real life sports like surfing - fitness, good coordination and balance are vital to surfing. i can fence and do some mean archery in real life. so if these skills are native to you in real life, they transfer pretty easy into combat gaming.

and like any sport, you also have those uh-oh moments when you're off by a split second, make a mistake, and you know it, in that instant you have only a slim margin left to make up for it.

that said, training and repedition and skill really does make a difference, even on the gm meter for all its limitations. it's possible a good fighter on a slower computer further away from the server can still beat out a mediocre fighter with a super dooper fast computer closer to the server.

but i read somewhere in a historical piece that the best gunfighters from the wild west tended to avoid confronting each other, actually avoided each other, and went after less skilled fighters they knew they could beat. i see that in gor too. i sure as hell would avoid going against the best bows of gor. but hey, i don't randomly run around shooting at people either. i never ever attack anybody unless i'm attacked first and defending - there has to be a reason for me to fight. i don't use people for target practice. anybody can walk by me i'm not going to go thermonuclear like i see others do. but if i have to take care of myself i can do it.

what really killed combat in gor for me, really left a bad taste, are all the cheat huds out there. aimbots, waw huds, position displacers, speed enhancers, shield stacking - you name it, people use those things. there are some really good fighters out there who have practiced a long time and who are naturally good at this. and i respect them. and there are worms out there who have no honor, who lie to themselves to justify wearing a cheat hud thinking it's necessary to the invincible nature of their character - whatever - and who will go forth to slay armies. these are the people destroying the challenge and sport side of sl gor. i would love to see alika find a way to overcome the vulnerabilities of the gm meter and make it more resilient to cheating. and as a sim owner, i have turned off features on my sim i knew griefers would exploit so they couldn't wear magic shields advertised on the sl marketplace, the ones where no arrows could penetrate.
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