GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

What would a better difference in gender strength be on the GM meter?

1. None. Man and woman should have equal chance of winning in combat over eachother.
3
6%
1. None. Man and woman should have equal chance of winning in combat over eachother.
3
6%
2. It's fine the way it is. 15%.
3
6%
2. It's fine the way it is. 15%.
3
6%
3. 30% (4-5 meleeswings to take out a woman, 5-6 to take out a man)
3
6%
3. 30% (4-5 meleeswings to take out a woman, 5-6 to take out a man)
3
6%
4. 60% (4 melee swings to take out a woman, 5-6 to take out a man)
6
12%
4. 60% (4 melee swings to take out a woman, 5-6 to take out a man)
6
12%
5. 100% (3 melee swings to take out a woman)
2
4%
5. 100% (3 melee swings to take out a woman)
2
4%
6. 200% (2 melee swings to take out a woman)
1
2%
6. 200% (2 melee swings to take out a woman)
1
2%
7. 500% (1 melee swing to take out a woman or 2 arrowhits)
5
10%
7. 500% (1 melee swing to take out a woman or 2 arrowhits)
5
10%
8. 2000% (1 melee swing or 1 splash hit to take out a woman)
3
6%
8. 2000% (1 melee swing or 1 splash hit to take out a woman)
3
6%
 
Total votes: 52
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Victor. » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:04 am

Draco wrote:Well if you look at the poll (and the one I posted on the other forum) it appears that about 75% believes that the 15% difference on the GM meter isn't high enough.

Last time I checked the "mass" of the voting centered around 75% more damage taken for women. Which basically would mean that females would take 70% damage from a melee swing, 35% from an arrow hit or 26% from splash damage.

I personally only would find this setting to make sense in gorean settlements, cities, torvie villages etc. as it to me would open the possibility of saying: "Okay gone with the OOC safety net that panthers can't charge our walls anymore. If they're crazy enough let them try." But for that personally I'd put the damage difference even higher, I'm one of the people who voted 2000% myself, with merely the above as reasoning.

There'll forever be the implication in captive of Gor for me that Verna MIGHT have rescued her captured bandmembers out of Ar, by use of stealth. And when I read that I think of having shot a handful of guards in the back of the neck in the dark of night with a few well-placed arrows and sneaking around to get her sisters freed out of the biggest, most well-guarded city in Gor.


So, just out of genuine curiosity - do panthers get 1-shot lethal arrows too then if they attack out of an ambush or out of stealth as you depict in your scenario of them sneaking inside city walls in a cloak and dagger fashion?

I am all for SCENARIO-DEPENDENT damage, that might be hell over fun - it might make it feasible to use proper tactics and preparations before engaging in combat. Who could argue against that?

But flat-out gimping panthers seems to defeat the purpose of combat - doesn't it?

I mean, if you're a decent shooter you won't have a problem capturing 20 girls at once with Anarch's desired flat-lined 2000% - and then what? After you've single-handedly made a farce out of their abilities to survive the wilderness - what is to be done with those 20 chicks on your wrist, lining up?

Ever played with 2 captives at once? Well, try to multiply that number - will they all find mention in 1 para? Do they each get half a liner whilst you hit that keyboard of yours like a woodpecker?

and @Bear - I read the other day that Exodus for example - makes the other party aware (or plans to - will check on that) when people disable their alphas - which I thought was rather nifty.

Nothing more annoying than people bullseying your ass through trees and thickets.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby HorizonNinetails » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:27 am

Being able to know who has alphas scrapped would be great. At least for admins.

And even if you disable them, you can still follow as if they're there.

I know on my old computer I HAD to disable them, just so that I could fight.

As for mowing down panthers, it would be more situational to city/village sims. Villages are pretty soft targets, especially when a lot of them seem to be built with people who havent the slightest clue how combat works. For example, Minus is just about the dumbest layout for defending in all of gor.

If you're on a forest sim, I say "tough shit" and the numbers should be equal.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Victor. » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:33 am

Guess it narrows down to what people want:

Realism or an easier, or funnier - I won't doubt the fact that some would find it hilarious to mow through panthers, time chain-lucking in a forest sim.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Erik » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:34 am

I voted none, for this reason alone: all a woman has to do (and the panther sluts do it all the time) and select MALE when setting-up their meter.

Until, the meter can check which avatar shape you have on, the entire argument is moot.

(apologies if this has already been mentioned, I have not perused the entire thread)
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby HorizonNinetails » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:41 am

Erik wrote:I voted none, for this reason alone: all a woman has to do (and the panther sluts do it all the time) and select MALE when setting-up their meter.

Until, the meter can check which avatar shape you have on, the entire argument is moot.

(apologies if this has already been mentioned, I have not perused the entire thread)


Sure. And I can load a hud with arrows and take down entire villages.

I can wear a tag that looks like I'm wearing a GM and happily mow down cities while getting shot in the face...shrugging it off.

But all of that is cheating. Blatant and obvious cheating.

If you chose male, when you're a female character, then its the same. I understand innocent mistakes can be made, but most times you can tell if someone is being malicious.

They cheat, they get banned. Its all you can do.

Most times when panthers do swap to a male meter, at least one of their sounds hasn't changed. I think there is a reasonable chance of catching them during the fight.

Simply put, I think its fair to assume that the majority of people don't cheat. Otherwise any discussion about combat is kinda pointless.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Echo » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:12 am

Glaucon Delphis wrote:Hmmm, a good idea, and the thread dies with everyone (well, most) disagreeing in one direction or another.

(I do wonder what those 4 that voted 500% or up were thinking... if anything.)

Anarch... maybe you ought to ask Alika or Jaraziah to change the (optional) setting for her next version (I doubt anyone sim owner that IS using this option at the moment would object).


I voted for the 2000% hit have women fall to the splash of an arrow. And my reasoning is that unless you give some people an automatic win they cry and cry. Big bad warrior attacks a panther band of two defenders with four of his buddies and they cry right now because they missed so often the panther girls were practically cherry while they were all downed. Yup meter cheating. Ahuh.
The difference is practice and a desire for instant gratification. I don't expect the world altered so I can walk onto a tennis court and instantly best all comers. Yet for GM combat it is. What made a warrior so dangerous was skill and training, becuase not all men are created equal. Weaker females as it is is fine.
Toss in a minor warrior difference and that would be good too.
But it should still come down to dedication.

Sorry for the rant, I just needed to let that out.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Echo » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:16 am

HorizonNinetails wrote:Yea. I'd rather have it as a setting.

In forests, you'd be on more even footing.

But the prim thing, hiding, that goes both ways.

Just as many panthers turn off alpha and ignore trees.

It severely limits what you can build.

The best way to get around the issue is to make trees non-phantom or put in non-phantom invisiprims inside them to represent where the tree would be - sculpt maps are wonky when turned non-phantom.


On our sim most of the trees (Trying for all) have a bark textured plug in the middle of the trunk. This does three things. Everyone can take cover and it actually does block arrows. You can't just run through the tree as though it was not there. And because it isn't an alpha texture, they can still block line of sight.
I like them, so far I have not gotten any feed back from anyone one way or the other though.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Glaucon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:25 pm

Let me argue my position (that the fem. weakness should be more significant but not 500% or more) using 2 examples.

Example 1: FW Nara finds herself blackmailed by merchant Nodo, who is demanding things from her. She hired an assassin, but Nodo anticipated that, and hired an assassin of his own to assassinate any assassin she might hire, which that assassin did. Nara fears that Nodo will keep on blackmailing her until she has nothing left and ends up enslaved. But what he is blackmailing her with IS pretty bad. It cannot come out, or she will be in even worse trouble. He has a letter by her hand that will condemn her. She tried stealing it as well, but that didn't work because he always carries it on his person.

One day, Nodo once again approaches her for a new round of threats and blackmailing. She decides to try and ambush him herself. She agrees to meet him in an alley near the docks, planning to ambush him.

Now, let's assume that the meter is used to play the ambush out, not text combat. What would be a good 'gender difference' for this scenario? Say, she jumps him, with her dagger, (assuming he doesn't use radar/camera panning to 'see' her ambush OR, if he does, assuming he doesn't metagame/use this OOC info), and starts wacking at him. He has a sword at his side. She will have an advantage, if she can surprise him. If she does, she will have a chance. Not a good chance, but a chance (and she is desperate). If he isn't quick to draw his sword, she can down him, giving her a chance to kill him, or at least take the incriminating letter from him. If he does draw his weapon and engages in combat in time, she would have a small chance with the meter having no female male difference (but she might still be able to run away). If there is a significant male female difference (like, say 60%), she would have a very slim chance (and she might be able to flee). If the difference is 500% or more, she would be down the moment he engages her, pretty much (no chance to flee at all, no chance to win, even if she is awesome in terms of melee skills and he is pretty bad).

I would say that, if you WANT a major advantage for Merchant Nodo (which would make sense to me given the books), but still want to give her a chance (which would make sense to me too), the 60% or something range would be best for this scenario.

Example 2: Two men go panther hunting in the forests. They hunt down a panther girl named Nikoka. One of her band, Nikoke, comes to her aid, as they tie that panther girl up and talk about how they will enslave her and sell her in city X. Nikoke doesn't dare engage those two men, as she is outnumbered, but she does want to help Nikoka. She follows them to a city.

The men have brought Nikoka to the city. Nikoke waits. After some sneaking, under cover of darkness, she finds an apparently unguarded part of the wall, and uses a rope and grapple to climb it. She sneaks through the streets and over the walls (let's assume that there are no metagaming map-using and camming guards), and she manages to find Nikoka, in a bamboo cage at the back of an inn. She can hear the men drinking and talking in the inn, along with other voices. She goes to free Nikoke, using her dagger to saw through some of the ropes holding the bamboo bars in place. After a little while, she creates a hole large enough for Nikoka to slip through. But as they are out, one of the men happens to walk behind the inn to relieve himself. He sees them, and readies his bow.

Now, what would be realistic? Nikoke, (assuming she has a bow, and why not) and him engaging in combat and her maybe besting him, and maybe besting his friend and a city guard as well, and both fleeing? BTB-wise... not too realistic. But not unlikely, with equal meter settings, given that she is a panther girl, and in SL gor, that probably means that she is better at fighting than the men are. The man having a 500% or more advantage, which will probably mean him very quickly downing both panther girls? Or a more moderate but clear advantage for the man, making it nearly suicidal for Nikoke to engage him in a fight, she hopes to win, but perhaps possible for her to engage him in a fight that might give Nikoka a chance to run off, maybe make her way out, and that might give herself a chance to flee and escape the city as well? I think that would be the most BTB realistic (and most interesting, RP-wise) situation.

This is why I think that equal (or near equal) meters (male female) aren't right for BTB gor, but why I think that differences of 500% or more are not desirable either. Might as well have an 'auto' loss rule for women if you do that (something I proposed some time ago, which nearly everyone here didn't like).

I think that a difference in the range of 50%-75% makes sense, in light of the books. The books make it clear that if a man and woman of more or less equal skill were to engage each other in straight-forward, open combat (like Tarna/Tarl), the woman would pretty much always lose. With a 15% difference, that won't be the case with metered combat (if she was slightly more skilled or a bit lucky). With, say, 60%, that would be the case. The female would nearly always lose, unless the man was quite unskilled with meter combat (which makes sense... Tarna WAS skilled. She would have defeated a man that lacked skill. Clearly, her self-confidence was based on having defeated such men before).

A difference of 500% or more makes little sense to me. Would it really take 5 panther girls with spears to be a match for one man with a spear? To me, it would make sense that a man would avoid a fight in which he faced 2 panther girls at once, if he had no additional advantage.

That's my argument. Some minor points:

Erik:
I voted none, for this reason alone: all a woman has to do (and the panther sluts do it all the time) and select MALE when setting-up their meter.


What Horizon said. As far as I know, male settings will yield male 'ows and aws' on the GM, which are an immediate give-away of a 'male setting'. Just a matter of turning your sound on (which you want to do in a fight anyway).

@ Echo:
I voted for the 2000% hit have women fall to the splash of an arrow. And my reasoning is that unless you give some people an automatic win they cry and cry.


This is why I mistrust some of those 'high percentage' votes. To me, your reason for picking that option seem more like a 'protest' vote about something else, rather than a considered vote based on the male-female difference you would like to see.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Sinswo » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:24 am

Draco wrote:And if let's say a Red Caste would only have to swing his sword once to take down a panther, would you still put up an artificial OOC rule to prevent panthers (or perhaps the odd crazed armed Free Woman) from trying to go violent in and on your city walls?


Let's say honestly, if a man could be taken down by woman then WTF is he doing in Red Caste??? His role is scriber. Oh, sorry, i forget that some of them are sim owners and they want to be red caste warrior )))))

You are very strange. The time when BDSM fans played Gor has gone. There are more normal people (women) around Gor. Really they don't play Gor RP, they play medieval RP but still call this "Gor" because it has the biggest comunity in SL. So if you make women are more weaker they will say FO to GM and will try other battle systems, because most women don't want to play subs they want fight and live normal RP life.

PS. If you, BTB citizens, would like to play BDSM with "easy" girls - just remove any meters and play by text rules only.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Victor. » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:34 am

Sinswo wrote:
Draco wrote:And if let's say a Red Caste would only have to swing his sword once to take down a panther, would you still put up an artificial OOC rule to prevent panthers (or perhaps the odd crazed armed Free Woman) from trying to go violent in and on your city walls?


Let's say honestly, if a man could be taken down by woman then WTF is he doing in Red Caste??? His role is scriber. Oh, sorry, i forget that some of them are sim owners and they want to be red caste warrior )))))

You are very strange. The time when BDSM fans played Gor has gone. There are more normal people (women) around Gor. Really they don't play Gor RP, they play medieval RP but still call this "Gor" because it has the biggest comunity in SL. So if you make women are more weaker they will say FO to GM and will try other battle systems, because most women don't want to play subs they want fight and live normal RP life.

PS. If you, BTB citizens, would like to play BDSM with "easy" girls - just remove any meters and play by text rules only.


While I don't agree with Draco on that whole thing - I still find the ignorance displayed in your post appalling.

So let me sum that up for you:

People enjoying Gor RP should refrain from using the Gorean Meter and instead play text-based combat only because "most women" in Gor don't want to play Gor but Medieval RP but suffer the theme for lack of other RP communities?

And I love how you idly stamp everyone enjoying BDSM as a-normal. I'll try to say that as tenderly as possible: You're playing SL, per definition, that makes you a creep - so you might be more careful with chucking them rocks around...glass houses and such.

Besides - what Medieval times are you playing for women to have any word in any matters other than how they arrange their table decoration? :geek:
Eifersucht ist eine Leidenschaft, die mit Eifer sucht, was Leiden schafft. // Jealousy is a passion, seeking zealously what causes suffering. Franz Grillparzer

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