GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

What would a better difference in gender strength be on the GM meter?

1. None. Man and woman should have equal chance of winning in combat over eachother.
3
6%
1. None. Man and woman should have equal chance of winning in combat over eachother.
3
6%
2. It's fine the way it is. 15%.
3
6%
2. It's fine the way it is. 15%.
3
6%
3. 30% (4-5 meleeswings to take out a woman, 5-6 to take out a man)
3
6%
3. 30% (4-5 meleeswings to take out a woman, 5-6 to take out a man)
3
6%
4. 60% (4 melee swings to take out a woman, 5-6 to take out a man)
6
12%
4. 60% (4 melee swings to take out a woman, 5-6 to take out a man)
6
12%
5. 100% (3 melee swings to take out a woman)
2
4%
5. 100% (3 melee swings to take out a woman)
2
4%
6. 200% (2 melee swings to take out a woman)
1
2%
6. 200% (2 melee swings to take out a woman)
1
2%
7. 500% (1 melee swing to take out a woman or 2 arrowhits)
5
10%
7. 500% (1 melee swing to take out a woman or 2 arrowhits)
5
10%
8. 2000% (1 melee swing or 1 splash hit to take out a woman)
3
6%
8. 2000% (1 melee swing or 1 splash hit to take out a woman)
3
6%
 
Total votes: 52
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Anarch Allegiere
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GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:26 am

What would in your opinion be a better "difference" in male and female combat strength on the GM meter?

Currently the GM meter has the optional region setting of "weaker females". Which means that a female avatar will take 15% more damage from all incoming attacks. Even if the hit indicator will say 40% damage, in reality they'll have taken 46% damage. (*Just confirmed this in testing with Kara Markova*)

I think a lot of people agree that the difference isn't big enough for a BtB setting and thus barriers and artificial OOC rules need to be put in place to avoid women winning a fight over an entire Red Caste. So what -would be- a better difference in damage taken?

And if let's say a Red Caste would only have to swing his sword once to take down a panther, would you still put up an artificial OOC rule to prevent panthers (or perhaps the odd crazed armed Free Woman) from trying to go violent in and on your city walls?

Perhaps the setting could be added as "Gorean city" to the optional GM region settings? So panthers still can have the same fighting power on their own turf, but severely weakened in a gorean city.
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Allison Millet
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Allison Millet » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:35 am

Well all it really equals up to is that when weaker female or whatever the setting is called, is turned on is that a man can take either one extra hit of melee or one extra hit with a bow >_> I sat and talked to Alika before about this and the difference is finite really all it adds up to is that it takes one extra arrow or one extra (insert melee here) swipe.

Sooo your numbers are a bit off, as I have it from the meter makers mouth herself that all it really does is factor in how the male avatar take's damage and gives them a slight advantage in that it will take one extra hit of whatever weapon is being used to bring them down as compared to a woman.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:43 am

Allison Millet wrote:Sooo your numbers are a bit off, as I have it from the meter makers mouth herself that all it really does is factor in how the male avatar take's damage.


It was Jara that told me a few months ago that "weaker females" = 15% more damage taken by female avatars.

Either way even if it's disputable I added the number of melee-swings in the poll above.
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Charlotte
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Charlotte » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:46 am

I typed and re-typed things about how meters don't work realistically, because one untrained physician, inside her surgery, with her surgical tools (for example) nearby, and bedpans too, can fling stuff at him while he can't even unsheath his sword because there simply isn't the space.

But then I realised that this isn't the space to negate a metre.

I think if the system could be heavily in males favour, but have a % change of failure for men. So, yes, if man and woman faced each other with nothing around them, both with equal weapons, both swung at the same time, the mans damage is substantially higher than the womans. But still would hope there's oppertunity for woman to dodge, run etc.

In the end, I do think if people are relying on meters to control women, they're always gonna fail!
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Allison Millet » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:48 am

Well unless its changed recently, thats still wrong, as Ive went over this before testing it and all it did was give the male meter a bit more health persay in the scheme of the fight, I still took the same number of hits that I would have taken in a none weaker female sim, all that was different was that I had to hit the male meter wearer an extra time.

In the end, I do think if people are relying on meters to control women, they're always gonna fail!


Pretty much spot on.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:56 am

Allison Millet wrote:Well unless its changed recently, thats still wrong, as Ive went over this before testing it and all it did was give the male meter a bit more health persay in the scheme of the fight, I still took the same number of hits that I would have taken in a none weaker female sim, all that was different was that I had to hit the male meter wearer an extra time.


That is contrary to the testing we just did a few times:

Weaker females sim:
Anarch took 5-6 (40%) swordhits to be taken out, or 11 arrows.
Kara took 5 swordhits to be taken out, or 10 arrows.

Non-Weaker females sim:
Anarch took 5-6 swordhits to be taken out, or 11 arrows.
Kara took 5-6 swordhits to be taken out, or 11 arrows.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby HorizonNinetails » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:58 am

I'd go from the other side. Have a setting to reduce female damage.

The combat system isn't logical, but neither are our interpretations within most games - items dropping around a body, rather than having to search pockets.

Cut female damage down to half of male damage within a setting:

10% arrows and 20% melee

Have it for cities. Panther groups and forest sims could ignore it completely.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby kara markova » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:36 pm

From my perspective I don't really see the point of over complicating things when it seems to be working well enough at present. Although for some at first sight it may be an appealing idea I think it would go the way of 'stamina' and be a largely unused option. Adopting such a change would appear to intriduce as many issues as it may apparantly solve.

Unless as a deterrent for cities that are being plagued with hordes of femlaws or panthers assaulting their walls (something I don't think is occurring unless I don't get out enough), I don't see what positives it will achieve.

Panther/Taluna sims won't enable it so any warrior's raiding forest sims will have no meter crutch to influence the outcome. All that I think would happen is that Minus/Clearchus/Torchwood type places would just be avoided by panthers. Nobody will raid or engage in meter combat if the meter settings effectively pre-determine the outcome. Of course if thats the desired outcome then fine, but it does also raise the spectre of captives declining to be taken to such places.

A further issue though is split sims where there may be large tracts of forest not just a city. Is it realistic that arrows shot by panthers do a set damage in one set of woods yet potentially 50%-60% less in another.

What happens if a panther band is located on such a sim. They are forced to fight or defend themselves with seriously weakened weapons yet not when they visit other sims. Perhaps the panthers on this sim will be avoided by other panthers as any raid on them or potential non combative rp may be totally disrupted by only one or two males attacking with the potential to down an entire panther camp.

Such a tilting of damage I belive just gives more reasons for people to dispute events and request mods. Arrows are arrows and will easily penetrate unarmoured flesh no matter what the gender of the archer.

As for melee, few panthers are especially accomplished and even if armed with a 40% sword, have virtually zero chance against an opponent armed with a shield. If you want to give warriors an essentialy unassailable advantage, simply have your sim rules ban women from shielding. It will have the same result as halving female strike damage with no meter tinkering required and the associated potential issues that may arise.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Resolver Bouchard » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:46 pm

Make bows shit, only let men use swords and shields, the current system isn't Gorean.

Adjusting strength is mehhh.
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Re: GM meter: A more BtB male / female difference

Postby Glaucon » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:16 pm

Resolver Bouchard wrote:Make bows shit, only let men use swords and shields, the current system isn't Gorean.

Adjusting strength is mehhh.


Bad idea, for various reasons discussed in other threads. Unless, of course, you come with a complete combat overhaul.

Kara:
All that I think would happen is that Minus/Clearchus/Torchwood type places would just be avoided by panthers. Nobody will raid or engage in meter combat if the meter settings effectively pre-determine the outcome. Of course if thats the desired outcome then fine, but it does also raise the spectre of captives declining to be taken to such places.


It IS the desired outcome. That is the point, to stop panther girls or visiting FW or bezerker slaves or whatever from being able to 'own' city warriors and such with apparent ease, which, in turn, will deter those female combatants that WANT to 'own'/raid cities (which isn't realistic given the books) while STILL allowing for the possibility of females engaging in combat (but at a severe disadvantage).

And sure... this might lead GE players to refuse being taken to such sims as captives (because they cannot be rescued 'fairly'). But what's new there? If they refuse on that ground, they will CERTAINLY refuse if the sim doesn't allow any form of combat by them in the first place (either through rules or by invalidating should they try and succeed).

What happens if a panther band is located on such a sim. They are forced to fight or defend themselves with seriously weakened weapons yet not when they visit other sims. Perhaps the panthers on this sim will be avoided by other panthers as any raid on them or potential non combative rp may be totally disrupted by only one or two males attacking with the potential to down an entire panther camp.


I imagine that a panther band wanting a home on such a sim must be a panther tribe firmly committed to BTB ideals. Most likely, they would not mind it if GE femlaws stayed away from their sim because of these rules. Most likely, they would want pretty good defenses for their camp, to make up for the disadvantage. Most likely, they would have a different mentality from the general panther girl in SL (being less interested in kicking ass, for one). I don't think that most panther girls would want to have their home in such a sim, but I bet that there must be some that would. For a panther girl RP-er, however, it is a NET gain in RP opportunity to have at least the OPTION of entering a BTB sim (even at a combat disadvantage) rather than being forbidden from entering because of the 'danger' of them easily 'owning' the warriors of the city.

In the end, I do think if people are relying on meters to control women, they're always gonna fail!


Yes and no. On some 'deeper' level, this is probably true. But on a pragmatic level, it isn't. As it is, male avi's already 'dominate' female ones on combat related stuff in existing btb sims, because rules and customs forbids the female players there to carry swords and bows and such. Meter settings are just another way of handling this through sim rules.

I think this would be a very good idea. I cannot really see a downside. With settings like these you WOULD NOT EVEN NEED THOSE 'NO FEMLAW' SIGNS (they would refuse to play there anyway). Of course, this won't solve all the problems of gor (and SHOULD a female avi somehow down a warrior, he may still go cry-baby-invalid-yelling, because the loss of face would be even greater), but I think this would be a nice step in the right direction.

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