Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Tantus
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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Tantus » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:48 pm

Thanks for posting Dove. I can appreciate you've always scripted what you believe is fun for the genre. But to understand their impact on raids you would need to be a raider too.

The last multi-tarn battles I recall were being fought over Cardonicus during 2009. With around 4 tarns in the air from Havoc or Toran. Going into 2010 is when Carter's Treve picked up on your tarns making the rider invincible in their 50/50 mode, everyone in Treve bought one, and they became the standard in BTB.

Adoveea Rau wrote:1. Regenerating meters-I fought that battle against them, tarnsman would take damage, tarn would take damage and they would fly up in the air, and regenerate. Forever flying battlewagons invincible in the air.
It was a cheat.
It was VERY unfair combat.
I fought against regenerating tarn meters, here on this very forums and in gor sims.
I put out war tarns that did not regenerate and to win that battle, I programmed tarns to be capable of outmaneuvering any others then on the market in turns/pitch and have variable speeds along with banking-and then no backward flying at all. I matched the meter to be equivalent of what % hits were done back then as well.

You take that no regenerating meter as standard today, but it was an ugly battle I fought for no regeneration back then.


That battle also favoured you in its outcome, it was as much a marketing pitch for your tarns to be used over the competition. As I previously explained, even with their regenerating meters, Havoc and Toran's tarns were slow-moving. they were possible to target from the air or ground and could be killed within a matter of minutes.

Compared to your 50/50 tarns which were a smaller target, with phantom wings and thrice the speed. The fact they didn't regen was irrelevant as no one could hit them at all! Only the sort of idiot who flies into buildings and is stuck for a minute would be in danger.

The difference is between targeting a bull at 50 meters who regenerates, or a hummingbird with 50 hitpoints. Take your pick.

And you can rightly say, every BTB sims agreed with you on regenerating tarns being bad news!
And I would say, BTB people are generally clueless on combat mechanics. How many sims switched to the LCS meter? I read the brief and stated then it's too complicated for BTB sims. But for some reason BTB sims believed LCS would even out battles and take the advantage away from GM fighters. Now I wonder how they got that impression! Surely it wasn't you and Patrick throwing around promises to have your meter approved.

10% of raiders in BTB know how to fight.
10% of raiders in GE know how to fight.

The general population are along for the ride, they won't understand how small changes can affect the entire battle.

Adoveea Rau wrote:2010 and beyond saw the new breed of tarnsman the ones that could fly, and maneuver in the air. No more flying boxes and instant poof you're a tarnsman-now you had to develop your own personal flying skills AND use your weapons too. Ask me and I'll give you the notecard of quotes-book, chapter, pages about spear use in tarn combat too. And nowdays I've seen the higher skilled tarnsman nail each other with spear and sword in the air as well.

I'm now working with experience key scripts and hope to overcome that metered tarn can't be hit by melee weapons in the future. You want to experience a glimpse of the future, come to Isle of Tarns and experience my Hawk Pursuit game.


There are few enough raids in BTB and those I've seen in progress, people aren't using your tarns for any kind of legitimate purpose, other than riding them along the ground as a speed enhancer. Zooming up to their target to melee him, them zooming away to melee another, etc etc. I do recall mention of tarnsmen using spears even during the early books, but I don't recall instances of tarnsmen wielding swords. These types of antics wouldn't be possible on tarns with solid wings.

My inclination is people who abuse tarns in this way will also cheat in other ways.
Last edited by Tantus on Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Tantus » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:48 pm

Anarch Allegiere wrote:I remember the story a bit differently.

Clearchus was by my will the first BtB sim to enforce a 20/20 tarn rule and it's why Adoveaa followed suit and updated her tarns to have a 20/20 version, eventually it became the main version as more sims followed the example.[/i]


I believe Clearchus was the first sim to enforce it, though it happened because Havoc had already released his 20/20 standard.
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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Glaucon » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:08 pm

While I'd largely agree with Tantus, here... I have to admit that Dove's tarns were indeed an improvement over the older tarns, in many ways. They were fun to fly. They looked good. Phantom wings probably make a lot of sense, when you want to animate them. In terms of realism, you might well say that older tarns used in most of Gor flew like flying boxes and were too slow. And you can't fault a creator for wanting to create something that is better than what was created before.

It is just that, somehow, the older tarns Tantus mentioned worked out to be fairly balanced, in combat. And that the newer tarns - though in many ways better - worked out to be far less balanced. And even if they were balanced, really (I can't be sure, as I never ended up using the one I purchased from Dove in combat much that I recall), they may still have upset the tacit consensus about tarns not being too OP.
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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Adoveea Rau » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:48 pm

I forsee the future balance being in what I said, about the melee weapons effecting an object (tarn).
But I've been begging, screaming pleading for that for years for gorean sims.

It's what I'm working on, pretty much hit the max capabilities on the flight program for flight, and I refuse to let tarns fly upside down and level...I save those sort of wildly fun revolutions for other flight objects and other sims.

Combat was pretty raw from 2007 -2010, you didn't have targeting light up arrows, arcs, speed or anything like that, it was all very very primitive. Lets talk about flying boxes in the air, and you shot a bow and hoped the arrow hit someone, cause you sure didn't have any sight or control or messages you hit, you just aimed and clicked alot and hoped it was good.

Phantom wings too, from the beginning, were on tarns, for a couple of reasons
1) Less land/prim impact.
2) Most builds are created for avatars walking/running around.
Its a very wider open build that takes in the concepts of tarns, even in the books, they talk about perches on walls, towers, a huge tower for tarns (Assassins of Gor, Prize of Gor -which has the best description of the tarn tower).

We are in second life.
Without alot of phantom parts, physical tarns most of all wings will get stuck in walls/towers/little breaks in the build etc.
That was the VERY loud scream years ago, and phantom wings were created to stop that problem. Also cuts down on the land impact.

Eight YEARS go..when you talk 50/50 ?? I assume you mean the 30/250 (250 / 5 points per arrows shot = 50 health points) tarns.
Good grief, you're actually talking about a 2008 to 2010 builds..er..hello? like 6 to 8 years ago???
I talked about how the sims were trying out tarns & combat.
The 30/250 (250 / 5 points per arrows shot = 50 health points-THAT is why I took out the math for people) was the same quality of health point match and speed to the other war tarns -who not only had the 50 points of health but regenerated those points.
Yeah, lemme see, even stretching it through 2010. that's still six years ago!!1
2010!! when mesh first was tried out for uploading on Aditi beta grid for the anyone (I was there too, uploading/testing on day one).
And ahem, cough cough, check your old tarns from carter's time 2010 in fact, Friday Jun 11 16:58 2010. Carter had me create the one set of the first war treve tarns for the sim and he gave them to all the tarnsman. Those were the famous blue tarns with huge gargoyle wings that everyone saw in the sky and screamed about blue devils of Treve and rang alarm bells loud. It's also where the roleplay of he owes me 300 gold came from, and the heavy roleplay taxes to pay for those tarns were put on the minus village. The next generation of Treve tarns for the Ubars of Treve, were the dark blue/green tarns you probably are more familiar with and carried through every year in new models, better flight programming all the way to 2016.

Talking about those old tarns from 2008 - 2010 is like talking about the old bows and avatars and meters!! of 2007/2008-the bows you shot and hoped it hit cause you sure didn't see the arrow, and the avatars whose joint knees poked out with showing the bone joint breaks through the skin and the meters that were really really buggy by todays standards but we used them anyway

Tarnsman use spears, swords, crossbows...just the first quote of many. There are very vivid descriptions of tarn battles through all the books. Here's just one quote of all three weapons by three different tarnsman used against Tarl all in the same fight.

"I saw a warrior on a tarn passing me, thrusting out with his spear. He surely would have struck home had not my tarn veered wildly to the left, almost colliding with another tarn and its rider, who fired a bolt that sank deep in the saddle pack with a sound like slapping leather. The third of the warriors of Ar was sweeping in from behind. I turned, raising the tarn goad, which was looped to my wrist, to ward off the stroke of his blade. Sword and tarn goad met in a ringing clash and a shower of glittering yellow sparks." (Tarnsman of Gor, pgs. 74-75)
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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Tantus » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:52 am

The GM meter and weapons haven't seen any significant changes since 2008-10. SL's physics have been updated but the experience is largely the same.

This thread was discussing how the tarn-combat-scene saw better activity during that era. If you prefer not to talk about anything from eight years ago, that's your choice. But there weren't any flying boxes posing as tarns in those days, there were legitimate models from Havoc, Toran, Malice and a couple of others I remember having tested.

For the aesthetics and roleplay purposes, I can agree your tarns raised the bar. And you do support your customers with customizations and unique features.


As to the need for phantom wings, when I used to fly Havoc's pre-20/20 tarn. It was probably the largest and widest wingspan in the game. There was no problem with landing on rooftops(Raiding Cardonicus was amazing for this), atop cylinders, to perch at the edges or even landing in a wide street, and dismounting to join the ground battle.

What you couldn't do:
Fly through narrows streets - wings would clip the walls and you'd swing out of control
Fly through open doorways and into houses to melee the occupants within
Fly along the ground, melee'ing anyone in your path and reducing the tarn into a speed-enhancing vehicle.

These are clear abuses of phantoms wings which have become accepted in BTB raids now.

One of the Toran tarn's I had, gave you wings for attaching to your avatar! I don't recall that I ever used it in combat.

A tarn with sensible limits makes for a better raiding experience. And this is not from speculation, there are several anecdotal examples of how tarns used to function in raids, and their ridiculous uses now. The actual GM, weapons and process of a raid are still the same, even identical to eight years ago.

Thanks for the quote.
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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Adoveea Rau » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:28 pm

Note what you said about builds, which opened up alot of this discussion. Yes older builds were more spread out and good for tarns.

That is a consideration, that use/abuse of tarn flying phantom wings...but!

You forgot the abuse players did with physical wings? Sweeping people off wallls with the wings, trapping them against places, pushing them out of the way or into others ruining their shots. And you couldn't use your melee weapons against the bird or wings either. Brings to mind MadDog-the ubar of Cardonicus, who was an deadly expert on that and who tested my tarns constantly giving me input. He used to sweep entire tribes of panthers with the wings here and there and shoot them as well. Gawd, he was good.

Larger wing size? No. Wing size hasn't changed. What you never realized is there is a limit of creations that every tarn maker used that worked out best through all the years in sl gor, nor were all wings physical either


I pulled out Manfred, Manfred is one of the very first original RauTarns, from Torcandino, like hello, first creations on the roof there, bananna feet and all. Manfred is so old, he doesn't even have a health meter.
I also pulled out the old toran, same generation time, not the "newer" one you are talking about with attached wings to the avatar, but the older one. The wings are phantom. Again, same size of wings.
And put my avaunt black blade in the middle.

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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Adoveea Rau » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:41 pm

While i was taking pictures another old friend stopped by and said I could quote him

[08:25] Μαρςελλμζ (Jacko Stawberry): true... i mean if you wanna complain that fighting is not realistic... how about like 12 arrows to take somebody down? or shooting while running? if it were realistic i should be able to sweep down and take an unsuspecting woman away from a wall or a cylinder.... and i can't fucking do it
[08:26] Μαρςελλμζ (Jacko Stawberry): what i love bout the modern tarns is, you really need to know how to fly them, they are not for everybody, and also there are different ways of flying and using them... in air to ground attacks, or air to air combat...

We took a picture of his tarn then as well, same generations Storm Bergis made this one and yes, phantom wings again.
[img][IMG]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn180/cmpelle/Tarnwing3_zpsxjvifmdx.png[/img][/img]
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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Adoveea Rau » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:11 pm

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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Adoveea Rau » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:08 pm

Back to the original question

So, is this a thing? Combat on Tarn-back via the GM meter?
If so, how does it work? What's good about it? What sucks about it? Is it fun?


GM meter works for avatars.

If you don't know about meters, meters just chat to each other in messages by individual avatar key- "you are in range of your enemy, you both swing, velocity, range and your hit box calculated, yes, you ..hit..or miss...enemy hit or miss".

There is nothing physical about those weapons your avatar swings.
Weapons are just decorative phantom objects when you attach them to yourself.
Its all about meters/scripts with programming that messages/talking back and forth to the scripts and those messages are checking/sending information about your avatar positions/speed/range.

Think of a meter as your cell phone, you punch in someone's phone number, they answer, and you chat because you have the connection.

When you take your meter off, a fierce sword swinging fighter suddenly has a limp and useless sword, can't do anything in damage to you.

No cell phone connection *bleep*.

GM meter has no cell phone numbers for objects- like tarns. So Tarns have their own meter

Tarns take physical collusion, from other objects, like arrows, etc. Tarn gets hit with the physical object (like an arrow) and the meter says "we have been hit/collided with a physical arrow object, we take damage"

That's why melee weapons in an avatar's hand does not work against tarns. Those weapons are phantom objects in an avatar's hand-we got no common network of cell phone connection.



Combat on a tarn-tarnsman on a tarn verus tarnsman on a tarn

Flying combat which is vastly different because you're working in a full 3d environment to move in. On land your opponents must run on a horizontal plane and limited to getting height by going up objects-walls/doors/stairs/etc.
In arial combat, it's you on your tarn, your opponent on his tarn and all that sky everywhere to move in, and all the land and buildings below become the obstacle course you can play flight run tag and dodge around chasing each other.

Weapons: bow(crossbow), spear and/or sword. You are going to swap these around, for long range combat shooting against the tarn and avatar and close in combat with the avatar.
Spears work best on a player on a tarn, and crossbow arrows hit the tarn when you're out of range of the avatar tarnsman. (gee, that's right out of the books too).
Swords can be used, but not very effective because you really have to get in close next against another player on a tarn. You get two tarnsman determined to sword fight it out, there's alot of spinning in the air and close maneuvers and swings-that is VERY rare.

Weapons use in Tarn Battle: Good: Arrow shots out to hit the tarn at longer ranges as you fly is the way to win and end the flying combat because the tarn takes the damage and doesn't regenerate and dies. Sucks: Hitting the other tarnsman with a spear and arrows can do great damage but it takes a highly skilled tarnsman to take out another tarnsman with a spear and arrows, simply because the avatar's meter regenerates. Sucks: Solo - one on one tarnsman battles- take longer to win. Good :More 3 or more tarnsman fighting each other or when two or more gang up on each other.
The hot adrenaline fist pump thrill -YEAH! is when you fly solo against two or more tarnsman and Win. Takes some time to burn out the real life burning rush from that.

Combat
Sucks to be a land locked warrior, cause you can't do anything but shoot at those guys in the air, (the gor book agree with you, land locked warriors hate tarnsman too, most dreaded in all the battles)
.Good You can take a tarn out of the air for the rest of the battle with your arrows and almost all sims state tarnsman cannot rez a new tarn (this is very realistic, no pilot in the middle of the war can call for a new plane for him to fly lol)
Sucks - most of those land locked keyboard archers have no idea about lead follow through and shooting in front of a flying tarn. Its what you do real life with a bow/gun on a flying real life duck/geese/quail/etc.etc. -sweep your sight across the tarn in flight and then shoot in front of it, where it's going to be, not where it is. Google about shooting birds/waterfowl in the air.

Good and Sucks Skill in flying and combat, personal skill and practice, makes all the difference.

SucksOne tarnsman can get wiped out in a minute or less if the city has a skilled tarnsman backed up with skilled land locked warrior who can shoot bows.

Good and Sucks One highly skilled solo warrior on a tarn can down an entire city of land locked warriors
BUT! they will all get up regenerated again-and are aided by others.
You need fellow tarnsman or land locked warriors with you, to really take a city. Even getting off that tarn to bind those downed warriors-doesn't work in a bigger city, they get aid from other players.

No Fun? Being a rotten shot with a bow. Being a rotten fighter. Being chased by a tarnman and not getting to safety -behind a door, into a tunnel-etc.etc. fast enough. Being stuck on the ground with lag from arrows-I'd rather be in combat in the air, where there is little or no lag -even when there's heavy lag on the land below.

Fun? Big time. Even for the people just watching a tarn battle, it's just great to see the birds swooping/diving and soaring then one falls spinning out of the air to crash on the land and die. Get a group of tarnsman in the air, and it's a combat visual and a half.
Your biggest clue is even here on forums guys talking about the fun they had in tarn battles.
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Re: Tarn Combat: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Postby Glaucon » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:35 am

Adoveea Rau wrote:Good and Sucks One highly skilled solo warrior on a tarn can down an entire city of land locked warriors
BUT! they will all get up regenerated again-and are aided by others.
You need fellow tarnsman or land locked warriors with you, to really take a city. Even getting off that tarn to bind those downed warriors-doesn't work in a bigger city, they get aid from other players.


This may be the exact problem mentioned here. In terms of lore and realism, a single solo warrior on a tarn downing an entire city, or even a group of warriors, just isn't really how things should be. In the book, we do see solo tarnsmen 'kicking ass' vs cities etc. but mostly when that tarnsman has the element of surprise (and because they are hero's). They don't use tarns to snipe down all opposition so the ground crew can clean up, as far as I know. In terms of realism, it would be a bit like a single horse-archer taking on a group of archers of foot and coming out on top. That is not how you use horse-archers. Big ridden animals do make pretty vulnerable targets for enemy archers. I'd imagine the same would be true for tarns. I'd say that, realistically, a tarnsman should not want to go up against two or more archers on the ground with his own bow, especially if those archers on the ground have some sort of cover. Because the tarnsman has none. And the idea of long range 'sniping' with bows from a flying tarn... just strikes me as silly.
In terms of the pew game in SL, you just can't have too much of an advantage when using a tarn. Sure, there is the lore, RP realism, and all. But people also turn it into a game and they like a somewhat level playing field when playing that game. I guess the old tarns were somewhat acceptable to most people because their use was situational, but even those were often banned from sims primarily focused on 'level playing field' pew-pew. From a gaming perspective, it is just really important that there is a something of a balance between tarn users and others.

Adoveea Rau wrote:Your biggest clue is even here on forums guys talking about the fun they had in tarn battles.


True. Fighting with tarns was fun. And tarns were just cool, in RP terms, as well.

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