:: Port of Hesius ::

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Tamar Luminos
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Tamar Luminos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:31 pm

The outdoor places are where the build really shines. The tavern is a headscratcher, I'll agree- being off the main drag and closed up like it is, the cafe- which is right off the market square and has an open front, is a much better example of how to position a public gathering place and where more people seem to congregate.

The RP has been very hit or miss to my experience. The first time I went, it was as a slave character, and I wandered a lot but found a bit of decent RP with a couple of folks also on their own, a she-urt and another slave. The first couple of times I went as my FW character, I was ignored by several people in a row and left without any RP. The last couple of times I was there, I got great RP, with Harlequin (playing characters who aren't linked and don't know each other, and actually don't like each other so far, hah!) and a slave character the one time in the cafe, who did a great job playing an inexperienced, nervous, obedient slave that our free characters put through her paces, and then the last time we were in with another FW character, a strange man lurking, and another she-urt-like character Quin had an enormously good time threatening (she loved the scene with us so much she friended both of us, even though our characters were mean to her. LOL) The last in particular was a great scene, with Quin's character going after the she urt and my character making a bet with the other FW as to whether the girl was really free or just pretending.

As with any sim, it all depends on the type of person you end up in a scene with, there's experienced roleplayers and then there's people who are just there to hang out with their friends, and everything in between and the trick is finding folks who match up with your playing style. We've run into a couple of good roleplayers there, and they weren't people we knew or had ever heard of, so there's a few diamonds in the rough there, for sure.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sasi » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:10 am

I have a few friends who visited Hesius and their feed back was rather positive, one liners, yes, but para-rpers as well, with whom they engaged in great scenes.

Anyway, in a sim which traffic competes with the Gor Hub, crowded every morning, afternoon evening and night, you should expect to encounter all RP styles, bad as good. Plus, by experience, my friends and me know that you can RP with so called advanced para-rpers whose RP will be entirely based on their OOC beliefs, who cannot RP in considering a realistic environment, whose actions are based on Earth morals and values, whose emotes will even pretend that your character acted in a particular way, as if it had really happened.... :mrgreen:
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sabina Takakura » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:57 pm

I was considering giving it another shot, and even talked to my RP partners about it, however we found out today that homosexuality is not allowed on sim as an RP choice and anyone who does, will be banned. In fact, all of their avatars will be banned.

While I recognize that's a choice that the people who run the sim can make, I strongly disagree with it, and feel that it's not only against the LL TOS, but not at all the sort of place I want to spend my time in.
Again, I wish everyone the best, but I won't be stepping foot in Hesius again.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Harlequin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:56 pm

Now I'm the first to say something when I don't think a sim's doing something right... I even have in this thread. But given that a LOT of RP places are having trouble where even in Gor, with a meticulously detailed setting, there's a problem with characters being (often) played by women and played as very clearly gay, even in Gor where it's supposed to be an aberration due to the way the setting is presented. Even in non-Gor sims, the sheer number of femme-boy and pretty boy gay characters outnumbers straight male characters to a hugely unrealistic degree. Now, I think that everyone has their personal choices, and lord knows I've railed a couple femboys here and there, but it's as unrealistic as every panther band being made entirely up of guys playing lesbians.

In fact, if I understand right, the whole thing with a gay male would be out of the ordinary to the point that a whole group of gay, or lesbian, characters would be completely off-point and this is from someone who plays a steampunk character.

To try to decry it as against hte LL TOS feels a bit like a false cry, mostly due to sour grapes and honestly a bit silly. They're not saying "If you're gay, get out" OOCly. But they are making a choice about in character stuff. Do I agree with it? I dunno. I don't entirely think so. But I will say that the problem of lesbian panthers became so much of a problem that it has become a running joke, and at least they're going to be able to not have the same problem that came up in Remnants of Earth, where after a certain point it turned out every single female on the sim was a guy playing a dickgirl, or whatever the gorean equivalent of that would be.

I'm all for choosing your own character path, but there's creativity, and there's "I want to do whatever I want and whatever kinks I want no matter what" and if we're going to make Gor like that then I demand healing potions so I can tear tamar's slaves up, and also tentacle rape.
No? Okay then.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sabina Takakura » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:16 pm

I get what you're saying Quinn, and to a point, I agree with you.
But I can only speak for myself personally, and the situation at hand. The fact that this person had ALL their avatars banned from the sim, tells me it isn't about the character choice at all. Removing one character for their specific character? Ok.
But that's not what happened.
If you're fine with it, great! I hope you're happy. (This is in no way sarcastic, I honestly hope you are.)
I'm only speaking for myself, and my own personal values, and I cannot condone that. We all have a choice to mute players we don't want to RP with, but again, that's not what happened here. This was an entire ban based on a person's presumed sexual orientation IRL.

I am an advocate, in all worlds, and I refuse to participate in behavior that very clearly causes pain and harm to others. End of story. Full stop.
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Tamar Luminos
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Tamar Luminos » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:42 pm

Was this person banned because they tried to play a gay character and broke a sim rule that clearly stated "no homosexual characters" (I can't honestly remember if that was in the rules or not) or were they banned because they're gay IRL? The first is a setting choice for characters in the genre, and one that I can understand, even if I don't totally agree with it. The latter is discrimination and pretty yucky.

I'm cool with "break the sim rules, get banned", though the best owners/teams will give at least one warning first to allow someone to correct their behavior and give them another chance to play by the sim rules. But I get that the sim owner is paying a huge amount of money to run their sim however they want and I get that when I set foot on a sim, I'm agreeing to play by their rules whether I like them or not. That's why I tend to quietly move on when I don't agree with the rules, or else avoid playing there to start with.

If someone was banned because they're gay IRL...without breaking any sim rules, well...that sucks. And I'm bi, so maybe I shouldn't play there anymore myself? I hope that's not what happened, maybe I read that wrong.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sabina Takakura » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:49 pm

I think it's up for interpretation. As far as I can tell, there is nothing explicit in the rules that say "No gay characters"

From what I was told by the person banned, they never even had a chance to roleplay, they were banned purely upon their visual appearance, as a feminine-ish looking male, and probably their profile which includes gay groups. At least two of their characters were banned.
I'm outing myself finally, but here's the IM I exchanged with Mel, and I hope everyone draws their own conclusions. I can only speak for myself.
Yes, I am bi IRL (even if I choose to play straight or gay in SL), so I admit, I am taking this rather personally.

[11:21] Maya (lacey.coronet): He said he's been to Hesius with no issues previously.
[11:23] Melisande Moisant: I did ban this avatar. I remember the profile. I'm trying to remember why.
[11:24] Melisande Moisant: Maybe the appearance of the avatar was not BtB.
[11:24] Melisande Moisant: I don't remember, frankly.
[11:24] Melisande Moisant: In our early days, we had so many that were just inappropriate.
[11:24] Melisande Moisant: Ah!
[11:24] Melisande Moisant: We aren't doing the male homosexual or bisexual male slave here.
[11:24] Melisande Moisant: Just a sim preference.
[11:25] Maya (lacey.coronet): Ahh, alright. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm sure he just didn't know.
[11:25] Melisande Moisant: I'm surprised I didn't tell him though? lol.
[11:25] Melisande Moisant: I usually ALWAYS say something if I ban someone.
[11:25] Melisande Moisant: Perhaps he just missed it.
[11:25] Melisande Moisant: This was very early, like week 1?
[11:25] Melisande Moisant: maybe week 2.
[11:26] Maya (lacey.coronet): Might have! Glad we cleared it up though. Thank you for your time!
[11:26] Melisande Moisant: You're welcome
[11:55] Maya (lacey.coronet): In the interest of being adult and fair here, I feel I should let you know that I'm going to add in that homosexual characters aren't allowed in my review of the sim. Personally, it saddens me and upsets me, but I also understand that others prefer it, and I don't pretend that my view is what everyone wants. I just wanted you to be aware. I don't hate anyone, or you.
[14:36] Melisande Moisant: You should read the article entitled "Simplicity" on our blog website to better understand why we are staying away from that role in the sim. And it is not that they are not allowed. It is not that they are openly allowed. And of course, we love homosexual roleplayers. It is just that the character of the homosexual or bisexual in Gor is such a very special snowflake character, that in our rules, as they state since the first day, we are asking people try to keep to traditional roles of Gor here in the sim for the overall feel of the BtB Gorean environment. I think you have a responsibility, if you're going to do a review, to also include that information.
[14:38] Maya (lacey.coronet): I disagree. While I understand it's a touchy subject given the genre of the roleplay, the way it was handled told me all I need to know. You didn't ban just that character. You banned all of his characters. Characters that have never been on sim. That action alone tells me it's based in homophobia, and not keeping within a genre. Again, it isn't my business what other people do, but I as an advocate in all worlds, cannot condone something that so very very very clearly will cause (and has caused) someone RL pain.
[14:40] Melisande Moisant: I only banned the one character actually. That's it. I never have banned "all" of anyone's characters, unless they kept bringing the same type of disallowed character here. I have never known someone well enough to ban al their alts, and them too. I did not even remember him, wasn't given his name, or a list. All I can think that happened is that he continued to bring that type of character here on other avatars.
[14:41] Maya (lacey.coronet): He said even brand new characters were banned. If they are estate banned, however, that bans them VIA IP, rather than account, and would explain it. Again though, it is against my personal belief that it has anything to do with snowflake, and everything to do with homophobia. It doesn't mean I hate anyone, quite the opposite. I'm of the opinion that you should meet hate with love, and this is included in that.
[14:41] Maya (lacey.coronet): it is in* not against.
[14:42] Melisande Moisant: And, of course, you're going on his word. He says he has 2 avatars, and the two are banned. If he brought both avatars and they were both of a femme boy, then he might have been banned on both avatars. And it is very hard for me to believe that I have not spoken up to either of these avatars to tell them that that is a choice we aren't doing here in BtB Gor. We do not ever ban via IP here. I do not even know how to do it. And I'm sorry you feel that way, really. That is not happening here.
[14:43] Melisande Moisant: It's against the terms of service to IP ban. We would never do that here, and we do not have the capabilities. I wish we certainly could. There are a few griefers I'd like to get rid of that would make life much easier for myself and the mods if we could do this.
[14:45] Maya (lacey.coronet): Hah, that's the truth. Even if it's not an IP ban situation, the situation remains. While I completely understand that homosexuality doesn't quite fit in with the genre, you are in essence, asking a vast majority of people to RP things out that they are uncomfortable with. You wouldn't force a "normal" slave character to RP out sex all the time, would you? We allow things like fading to black for those reasons, because things like rape, etc, can sometimes be uncomfortable. It's accepted now, and understood.
[14:45] Maya (lacey.coronet): The same holds true for people who choose to play homosexual characters. They are often, homosexual IRL. You're asking them to either play things that are really uncomfortable for them, or not at all, and I feel like that's wrong.
[14:48] Melisande Moisant: No of course not - they should roleplay out sex and rape. Those are very Gorean things. Homosexual sex and rape and behavior is not really part of the genre here. It's a genre issue, not the issue of bigotry. It is about the feel of what makes an environment Gorean. We have also asked for other special characters not to be allowed. And I'm not asking that of them at all. there are people who are transgendered who come to SL and people who have a wheelchair because of their disability who come to SL. And there are people who live with hearing loss who come to SL. These are also things you would not see in Gor. The science of medicine is beyond it. People are deal with being elderly in real life - we ask that they not play that here. Because in Gor, we had the serums. This is not bigotry. It is the genre. He simply eliminated things. There are also people who have children in real life, and they like to come here to SL to play having a family, or having kids, and they want those kids to be
[14:48] Melisande Moisant: played out. That is wonderful! We ask that it not be part of the BtB Gor sim in Porto f Hesius.
[14:51] Maya (lacey.coronet): I understand what you're saying, but I feel it's just a matter of me not agreeing. Nothing wrong with that, and perhaps Hesius is good because it provides that place that no one else does. It's not for me personally, nor will it ever be given the rule, but that doesn't mean I hate anyone. It just won't ever be my home :)

Basically it comes down to what I said. I don't agree with banning. Anyone and everyone is welcome to mute or just not RP with something they disagree with, but banning has a basis in bigotry, no matter how you phrase it, in my opinion.

To each their own, but my own says no. I can't condone this. I honestly feel it's a thinly veiled attempt at being bigoted through "genre" rules, since it ends in a ban rather than telling people to just not RP it.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Leah » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:27 pm

Well...

She didn't seem to say that LGBT players would be unwelcome in Hesius. She seemed to only take issue with LGBT characters. I'm not sure that constitutes bigotry.

I'm not playing in SL at the moment, but I am playing on a platform with a huge amount of LGBT characters (someone recently estimated that something like 75% of the active characters are probably LGBT). Thing is, the majority of the gay male characters are being played by straight female players, and the majority of gay female characters are being played by straight male players. They're straight out fetishizing the orientation for sexual kicks.

Which, I mean, is fine, if a little disrespectful, but it's RP so whatever.

I'm not sure it violates the ToS for the owners of a sim to say, "We're not allowing any of this sort of character." As long as they don't exclude the players, then it's probably okay in the eyes of LL. I mean, I'm sure there are RP sims out there that take the opposite stance and don't want straight characters because their theme is gay/lesbian.
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Harlequin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:26 pm

Mel seems to be perfectly reasonable here, and I gotta say... I don't see a problem with this. If they came in on two separate AVs, and each got banned in turn for the same thing... well then. And now assuming that the player, oocly, is a gay male, that has no bearing since from the sound of it they were banned for stuff that was directly done against the rules.

Additionally, I have to toss a flag on the "you are in essence, asking a vast majority of people to RP things out that they are uncomfortable with. You wouldn't force a "normal" slave character to RP out sex all the time, would you?"

There's a ton of things wrong with that. First off, they're not asking anyone to RP anything. If I'm running a sim where the entire idea is that the men play horrible tentacle monsters with rapey intent, and women run around getting raped, and you don't like that or want to play a dominatrix with male slaves...
I'm not asking you to do a darn thing because you can just play elsewhere. I may not entirely agree with Hesius's simplicity doctrine, but I also am not playing a crazy out there character there because I don't have to. No one is forced there, unless somehow they're pulling a National Lampoon and saying "Play here or we shoot this sleen". They have no obligation to cater to every single desire.

Second, the forcing of a slave to RP sex is a false equivalence, because a slave player can ftb sex and it's still RPed as having happened. There's consequences and that's okay. While I personally would find it really boring, whatev's. But if you have a gay male gorean Master or Slave, you can't just go "Well he's totally normal except when he has sex with men we FTB it so it's ok" because it still has repercussions and affects the character and who they are. It changes a person fundamentally, and in a way that simply doesn't fit the setting as the sim owners see it.

Now if you don't agree with it or like it, I can see that, but the arguments like people are being forced to act straight, or that they're discriminating against people oocly... that's just silly. Especially since in SL there' s no way to tell but it really does seem like the safe way to bet is that most "gay" characters are people of the opposite sex fetishizing the sexual orientations of actual LBGT people.
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Tamar Luminos
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Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Tamar Luminos » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:37 pm

Yeah, ok- going by that convo, it seems like they're just banning because the person was trying to play a character that didn't fit the setting of the sim and not discriminating against the player OOC. Can't say that I see anything wrong with that.

And I don't think anyone's being asked or forced to play something they don't want to play. If they want to play a gay character in Gor, they simply need to find a sim that allows gay characters. There are plenty, Ar comes to mind first off. But to get mad at an admin for trying to enforce a certain standard for the vision of their sim seems a bit...entitled. Like, "well, you should change the rules and/or vision of your sim so that I can play what I want", ugh no, that's so rude. Just...find another sim?

Wish you and your friends the best of luck finding a place to play that fits how you guys want to play. Quin and I haven't quite found a place that fits us either, but we keep trying.
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