:: Port of Hesius ::

User avatar
Oor
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:33 pm
SL Name: Oor Breen
Home Stone: ROIAF: GoT RP

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Oor » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:36 pm

I get that they're saying gay characters and not gay people, but this is still an issue. It's an issue, because it's marginalizing a real group of people based on a subjective view of the novels.


No. It's an issue for you, because you've decided to take up the mantle of... shit, I dunno what the fuck's in this post altogether. Homosexuality, sexual assault victims. You really outdid yourself.

Here's the thing. That subjective view of the novels is what the owners and admins of Hesius choose to roll with. It's not a particularly controversial view, all be it subjective, because the books verge on explicit when it comes to describing the nature of homosexuality within this entirely fictional world that we choose to make entirely fictional characters in, to play out entirely fictional stories.

Gor is misogynistic. It's full of rape and violence and survival-of-the-fittest ideology. It is not fair, it is not "just" in any real world way, and it is entirely unsurprising that it's also homophobic. But we all know that going in. We've read the source material. At the very least we've read some information on the interwebs and some quotes. Even still, with full consent, we make fictional characters and place them into that fictional world, and we do it because conflict and tension beget good stories - not because we think it's a totes rad world we'd want to live in. With respect, if your /only/ social/cultural gripe with Gor, when considering the world in terms of justice and fairness, is its homophobia, that's kinda scary.

@ Oor - "Maybe your friend is different - maybe playing his/her feminised, homosexual male slave and receiving the consequent IC homophobia that should go along with it would be fun for him to play - but I see why the risk isn't worth it for admins."

Yeah, I do see the risk, and yeah I get your point, but that's the heart of my issue with this. It's one thing to let things happen naturally through roleplay, another to ban on sight. Funny enough, when I met this character IC (who is feminine looking), I didn't think they were homosexual. At all. I was honestly surprised to find out later they were. This person gave every tavern slave a run for their money. At the time, I saw it purely as an aesthetic choice.


We're all judging in the dark here, really. We have no idea what was said to your friend, whether your friend was polite and offered to change the character, whether your friend was an asshole and deserving of a ban on those grounds. Unless we see a log of that exchange (if there was an exchange) we'll continue to be typing in the dark.

With that said, homosexuality is a little different, in terms of Gorean sims, so let me be controversial, since I haven't been for some time. If the admins of a sim, let's call it sim A, allow an openly gay character to play there, understanding that character as an anomaly, by this time next week sim A will likely receive a gaggle of GBK players playing gay men. That gaggle of GBK players will take IC homophobia as OOC homophobia, pretend to be gay men OOC, and go to bat in group chats and admin IMs at every perceived opportunity, causing a shitstorm in a teacup for no reason whatsoever. They will eventually, all of them, having spent a few weeks or months fetishizing the idea of the gay man as oppressed, and of homosexual male sex as a kink, roll out of town on a red carpet of drama, having driven away many of the players that were there when they arrived, and make not one single glance back. While there absolutely is homophobia still in the world at large (and hence SL), I would say this group in particular has made things far more difficult for our fellow players who wish to play IC gay.

I do not agree with anyone saying that any slave character should roleplay out sex and rape 100% of the time.


Nor do I. But that's not what she said. She said "[T]hey should roleplay out sex and rape. Those are very Gorean things."

Contextualised within the wider conversation, it's obvious (unless you are purposely looking for a more malevolent meaning) that Melisande's point is not that she would expect Jane Doe to sit behind her screen, quietly sobbing and trembling and all sorts of triggered and write out a rape scene. Her point was that sex and rape are very prevalent within the genre, when contrasted with open homosexuality.

For what it's worth, I've FTB'd at least 3 scenes in Hesius. No issues, any time.

There are tons of new players out there that don't realize FTB is a thing. How many of them sat through RP that was uncomfortable because they felt like they had to, or they'd lose their friends or RP home?


This is not Hesius' problem, though, is it? And not really relevant to the issue at hand, unless you're trying to dictate that Hesius should list generic RP tools in their website.

It's easy to say "Well they should know better" but let's face it, cognitive distortion in response to sexual assault is a real thing. It's our duty as members of the human fucking race to not be jerks to each other.


Jesus fucking christ. No. Stop trivialising an issue as serious as sexual assault to win fucking arguments on the interwebs.

Someone involved in a rape scene, if they're uncomfortable, can express their discomfort. It is a VERY RARE PLAYER INDEED, who, when confronted with someone saying "this rape scene is making me real uncomfortable, can we stop?" will say no. I've never seen it happen. And if it does happen? The adult who feel uncomfortable can hit the X and go read a book, or netflix and chill, or go to another sim for a bit, or another genre.

In addition, Gor as a genre has a HUGE sex-and-power component. A person with personal issues around rape and/or sexual assault really shouldn't be playing in it. SL is not the place to go for exposure therapy. Really, it's not. And expecting to RP in Gor and not encounter some sexual assault (by our 2015 non-fiction standards) of some kind is like expecting to RP in GoT and not encounter politics. But worse, because politics is (probably) not going to cause you any psychological pain.

2)And there are people who live with hearing loss who come to SL. - I had a mute slave in Gor for years. A lot of you knew her. She was a great story. Would she be banned on sight from the sim? I never once was.


This situation is different. I would posit that if your mute slave inspired a wave of mute slaves (akin to the gaggle of GBK femmeboys I mentioned earlier), your experience would have been very different.

3) "Oh, but what if they want to play a Kur and they say no. It's the same thing!"
No, it isn't. It isn't because Kurii aren't a real life group of people who have spent centuries being beaten, killed, tortured, and marginalized because they were born that way.


If you are able to aptly separate IC and OOC, it is exactly the same. Real world prejudices and happenings have precisely zero to do with what is viable within a fictional world.

4) You wouldn't allow elves as a character in gor, because it's not in the books!
No, you wouldn't. But elves aren't a real life group of people who have spent centuries being beaten, killed, tortured, and marginalized because they were born that way.


Real world prejudices and happenings have precisely zero to do with what is viable within a fictional world.

There are no albinos in the books, but I saw an albino slave girl in Hesius. Why didn't you ban her?


This is really the opposite to the case being discussed. Homosexuality was in the books. It was considered an oddity, very rare, and unnatural.

You banned the character. You didn't ask them to change. That means this avatar cannot come back with a different looking character (one that perhaps isn't homosexual if they choose to play that). You don't even give them a chance. You banned them. Banning the character rather than asking them to change is the issue. It's an issue, because banning assumes that all the characters will be gay. It makes it an OOC issue, not an IC one.


Things don't generally work this way in Gor, though, do they? It's different to other genres. People don't generally change characters all that much, if at all, so banning the avatar makes sense, in this situation. It also seems that banning is what Hesius admins do as a rule (see the prior talk here about a good player being banned because she arrived on sim in a non-Gorean avatar, and stood there camming to check the place out) - I'd imagine because it just makes their job, administrating a sim with traffic close to HUB levels, easier.

I'm sure that your friend is capable of IMing the admins if he decides he wants to play a non-gay or closeted-gay character, and asking them to unban him/her. Melisande seems to have communicated with you perfectly rationally about it, I see no reason why she'd turn into some sort of demon monster if it were your friend talking to her instead.

If it makes you feel better about yourself to hide behind an outdated set of novels that were written in a time when homosexuality was a disease to be eradicated, rather than joining every other enlightened person on the earth who realizes it isn't, it's how people are born, then sorry (not sorry).. I'm still going to call you on it.


Calling people out because you've suddenly decided that the fictional homophobia of a genre that includes fictional rape, murder, misogyny to an extreme degree and torture is today's issue du jour doesn't make you look enlightened. It makes you look mental.

It's fiction. If you want something with modern values, written in 2015 and which would stand up to rigorous checking for inclusiveness and equality, by all means go find it and play to your heart's content - but Gor is not it - not in any way, shape or form. That is precisely its appeal, for most people.
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

Flix
User avatar
Harlequin
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:25 am
SL Name: Harlequin Salome
Caste: Scripter
Role: Guy Who Stares In Confusion
Home Stone: Blender, mostly.
Contact:

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Harlequin » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:37 pm

Quick response from my phone... What the fuck are you doing playing in Gor?
There used to be a gif here. It was awesome. But it's gone now.
User avatar
Oor
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:33 pm
SL Name: Oor Breen
Home Stone: ROIAF: GoT RP

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Oor » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:40 pm

TreatRothschild wrote:My problem is the banning of the character. I find it somewhat Neanderthal.

Hmm.


And yet very few people took issue with another avatar being banned merely for standing in the sim dressed in a non-Gorean fashion. It would be very handy to forget it, I'm sure, but it does rather suggest that the Hesius admin's way of dealing with potential issues is a "ban and deal with if they IM" sort of thing, doesn't it? Given the super high levels of traffic, it makes sense.

Either that, or the admins are also OOC prejudiced against faeries. :roll:
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

Flix
User avatar
Sabina Takakura
Posts: 310
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:38 am
SL Name: WAT.
Caste: Hobo
Role: Zombie Killer
Home Stone: My cat.
Owner: Reddit.

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sabina Takakura » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:55 pm

Edited too late, next post!
Last edited by Sabina Takakura on Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sabina Takakura
Posts: 310
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:38 am
SL Name: WAT.
Caste: Hobo
Role: Zombie Killer
Home Stone: My cat.
Owner: Reddit.

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sabina Takakura » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:01 pm

Oor wrote:
TreatRothschild wrote:My problem is the banning of the character. I find it somewhat Neanderthal.

Hmm.


And yet very few people took issue with another avatar being banned merely for standing in the sim dressed in a non-Gorean fashion. It would be very handy to forget it, I'm sure, but it does rather suggest that the Hesius admin's way of dealing with potential issues is a "ban and deal with if they IM" sort of thing, doesn't it? Given the super high levels of traffic, it makes sense.

Either that, or the admins are also OOC prejudiced against faeries. :roll:


Faeries aren't a real life group of people who have been tortured, killed, discriminated against, and marginalized because they were born that way. Apples and oranges.

Why am I in gor? Because it's roleplay. I don't have to really believe I'm an ambitious murderess to play Lady Macbeth. There is absolutely no difference when choosing to play in Gor, in my opinion. It isn't real. It's pretendy fun time games.

However, since the conversation has de-evolved into personal attacks, I'll bow out. Have fun.
User avatar
Tamar Luminos
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:06 pm
SL Name: Lamar Luminos
Caste: Gorean Subversive
Role: Roleplayer
Home Stone: Turia
Owner: Harlequin said put him

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Tamar Luminos » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:08 pm

I get the righteous indignation. I get wanting to stand up for your friends. I get that homophobia and discrimination in real life flat out sucks.

But.

I don't think any of that has any relevance to the case at hand. I think, in this case- someone wanted to play a character in a sim that just didn't fit the sim's setting and vision, and they got banned for it. From one single roleplay sim, where the type of character they wanted to play wasn't allowed, so no big loss on their part. It's not really that big a deal.

There's lot of sims in SL that -do- allow femmeboys and gay characters, hell some sims are nothing but. There's even several Gor sims that list "gay Gor" in their tags. Your friend's not hurting for other sims.

And I don't think saying openly gay characters don't belong in the Gor setting is discriminatory to people who are gay in real life. We all know, or should know how to separate IC from OOC and Second Life from reality. It's a fantasy setting, not current modern day earth, with entirely different social norms, and trying to shove modern day social justice into a fantasy sci fi setting just- twists the setting into something other than the Gor we've all read about in the books. Some sims are fine with changing things around like that, some aren't. I don't see anything wrong with either approach, myself and respect the sim owners' right to decide how to stay true to the setting they've chosen for their sim.

If I wanted to play an openly bisexual switch, I wouldn't do it in Gor. It's what I am in real life, and I'm pretty firmly lodged in the closet because I live in a small town where that sort of thing would be very much discriminated against. C'est la guerre. But I wouldn't try to force myself into a setting or sim where that sort of character really wouldn't fit. I'd go instead to a cyberpunk sim, or an urban fantasy sim, and play to my heart's content without expecting a sim to change for me. The Gor setting is pretty limited and focused upon a very small sample of character archtypes. That's just how it is. The books were a product of their times and a horny philosophy professor.

If there were fripping great wadges of homosexuals running around in the books, it would skew the focus away from dominant men sexing up submissive women. That's just the way it was written, and the focus of the books. An albino slave wouldn't mess with that focus, would instead be probably considered an 'exotic slave' in the context of what we've read in the books. A group of homosexual male characters would mess things up, though. Who needs seductive female slaves when you've got all the warriors buggering femboys? At that point, it's not Gor anymore. Might make a smashing good story, and some fun roleplay, but it's not Gor. I think -that- is the point, here, and the line Hesius and Mel seem to be trying to hold. And I can't see that as discriminatory in real life, not at all.

Came back to add- I don't want to join in on a pile-on on Sabina...I think we can all just agree to disagree about things and still wish each other well. I know how frustrating it can be to try to find a sim to play on and not be able to find one that you feel you can play a good character on. It really sucks, and maybe that's where part of this is coming from. Let's try to be kind to each other, we're all nerds roleplaying in a video game together.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
http://clockworkkitteh.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Sasi
Posts: 718
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:16 am
SL Name: Sasi

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Sasi » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:42 pm

Oor wrote:
With that said, homosexuality is a little different, in terms of Gorean sims, so let me be controversial, since I haven't been for some time. If the admins of a sim, let's call it sim A, allow an openly gay character to play there, understanding that character as an anomaly, by this time next week sim A will likely receive a gaggle of GBK players playing gay men. That gaggle of GBK players will take IC homophobia as OOC homophobia, pretend to be gay men OOC, and go to bat in group chats and admin IMs at every perceived opportunity, causing a shitstorm in a teacup for no reason whatsoever. They will eventually, all of them, having spent a few weeks or months fetishizing the idea of the gay man as oppressed, and of homosexual male sex as a kink, roll out of town on a red carpet of drama, having driven away many of the players that were there when they arrived, and make not one single glance back. While there absolutely is homophobia still in the world at large (and hence SL), I would say this group in particular has made things far more difficult for our fellow players who wish to play IC gay.



I have personally experienced something like that. And it ends with the admin team, the sim owner, who finally decide to add these gay characters to the list of exceptional characters who need admin approval before being allowed to play in the sim. And the admin team, the sim owner, have to spend hours and hours arguing that no, they are not OOC homophobic, they only want to list gay characters as exceptional characters (and not ban those who would play a character based, for example, on Appanius, from Magicians), exactly as you limit other exceptional characters like albino, poisoned slaves, etc, because Gor is before all, a genre about men dominating and sexually enjoying submissive women, etc etc etc. And you are tossed in the face that you are homophobic, the sim owner might even get an abuse report (not followed of consequences, there is no TOS broken). In definitive, you get a ton of shit crap. Yeah, all good fun, laugh!

I don't believe actually, when this question of gay character is addressed, that people will be able to deal it only as a matter of role play, of fictional character and won't bring it on an OOC and real level. It's a subject which will always hurt real sensitivities. Whatever you add in your rules, say, argue and do.

I am well certain there are real homophobic people in SL Gor, I personally hate when some guys add to their profile, in their limit pick "no gay shit", which is truly a homophobic mention (if I had again to bother with sim administration, I would personally refuse a membership to a player having such mention in his profile), but I do not think that Hesius and its admin team enter in the real homophobic crowd category.

I guess I know who are the people about whom Maya spoke. The tavern crowd, no? They are creative people who are good to develop plots and stories, no sim would regret to have them joining. Would be worth of a chat between Hesius admin team and these players...

As for BTB, a recent experience taught me there are tons of -experienced- players out there that don't realize FTB is a thing.... Or maybe did they think it only applied to rape and torture.............
User avatar
Harlequin
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:25 am
SL Name: Harlequin Salome
Caste: Scripter
Role: Guy Who Stares In Confusion
Home Stone: Blender, mostly.
Contact:

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Harlequin » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:32 pm

I will lead off by saying I am racist against faeries. Fuck those fluttering little bastards. Fuck their smug little faces, their fucking button noses, and their goddamn glitter. The world is better off without the goddamn faeries.

This is one of those posts that I know better than to make but, hell. We're here.

You are basically going "I like roleplaying here, just everything needs to change." With "... or you're all homophobic" for good measure. It's like reading Tumblr. This attitude is more or less what's wrong with SL RP. Kudos for Oor, she's managed to distill it down to the lifecycle of the GBK which we've been screaming about, and seeing, for years. Move in. Nest. Drive off anyone who you think is "backwards" in their mentality. Drama. Leave an empty sim behind.

Fuck that.

When we think about a setting with human sexual dimorphism and a society where women are cattle or cattle in waiting, where the entire point is that the world revolves around a man, a MANS, right to fuck what he wants, kill who he wants, take what he wants, what we all really see is a sim that needs more progressive ideals because MOON LOGIC.

And the logic that the RP scene has to change is very typical of the dramabombing attitude that we're seeing in so many other places. Why make a unique setting? Just glom onto Gor, set up a clique that really doesn't fit the setting, then gripe when everyone doesn't think it's the best thing ever.
I admit, I do my own setting stretching, but if a place doesn't allow it I think it's boring and leave. I certainly don't call them anti-Semites because I happen to be a Jew and how dare they turn away my RP.

In fact, using your logic... where the fuck are the Jews? If we're going to play Oppression Olympics, may as well defend them, too. I think every sim needs a House Rothschild. Don't like it? You're anti-Semitic. Sounds insane, doesn't it? So does this. It sounds -nuts-, unless you believe that everything is backwards unless it bends over backwards to fit our own ideas of what everything should be which is why we end up with people making huge Tumblr posts about why Samus Aran is actually trans and other such seething nonsense.

This all makes me angry because this attitude is what's strangling sims. Small, vocal minorities move in and choke the shit out of every major, important place, play characters and plots that have absolutely no relation ot the setting of the sim, then leave and leave an empty wasteland. But hey, they never had to pay for the sim so who cares? Now, let's take our glittery femmeboy gorean group to the next target!

The addition of the accusations of homophobia just add a beautiful level of self-righteous kafkatrapping on top because now it's your way or be accused of something TERRIBLE. GASP.

Don't decide that you don't like the source material, then attempt to force everyone to change the setting fundamentally... make a place that's yours or that supports you. You know, like Ar. Since it's pretty clear the idea of dominant men, submissive and easily fucked slavegirls, and free women walking a narrow line is not what you want.
There used to be a gif here. It was awesome. But it's gone now.
User avatar
Oor
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:33 pm
SL Name: Oor Breen
Home Stone: ROIAF: GoT RP

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Oor » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:01 am

Faeries aren't a real life group of people.


Neither are the fictional characters in any role play environment.

It isn't real. It's pretendy fun time games.


That's sort of the point.
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

Flix
User avatar
Oor
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:33 pm
SL Name: Oor Breen
Home Stone: ROIAF: GoT RP

Re: :: Port of Hesius ::

Postby Oor » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:28 am

Sasi wrote:I am well certain there are real homophobic people in SL Gor, I personally hate when some guys add to their profile, in their limit pick "no gay shit", which is truly a homophobic mention (if I had again to bother with sim administration, I would personally refuse a membership to a player having such mention in his profile), but I do not think that Hesius and its admin team enter in the real homophobic crowd category.


There are absolutely real homophobes in Second Life, just as there are in real life - and that's why I go to bat so strongly when someone ramps up the outrage for a non-issue. In order to tackle real prejudice , you need to be able to recognise it. Conflating a role play sim deciding to limit a particular character type in order to maintain a sense of balance, with real homophobia, makes it harder for people to see homophobia in the first place, makes it easy for people to dismiss as "them damn gays, whining again", and diminishes the power of speech when it's used to tackle real homophobia.

Real homophobia absolutely exists. My best mate is currently going through court, because someone decided to beat the crap out of him one night for "acting gay". He spent the night in hospital with a concussion - because someone decided that his private sex life was adequate reason to give him a boot to the head. This sort of rhetoric, focusing in on trying by any means to find offense in an innocuous act and thereby prove oneself the most progressivest, doesn't just trivialise the issue of real homophobia - it is outright harmful to the cause of combating it.
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

Flix

Return to “Port of Hesius”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest