The new makeover thread

A place to discuss what works best, looks best, and loads best when it comes to the world of Bodies and Clothing.
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Sasi
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Sasi » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:13 am

DarbyDollinger wrote:Avatars are a reflection of people's personality, or lack thereof. I'd rather an avatar that was interesting than a well-defined clone.


A reflection of people's taste as well... I prefer a beautiful avatar whose face wouldn't be unique, rather than some "interesting" one which will display the lack of good taste of its owner...

And as I said, the clone issue exists as well with system heads, has always existed. So, at the end, better a well-defined clone than a badly defined one.
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Oor
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Oor » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:00 am

I don't get it - why would you make your avatar a reflection of the typist's personality instead of a visual representation of your current character?
I call my vagina "New Yorker cartoon" because it's dry and a handful of people have laughed at it.

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Glaucon
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Glaucon » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:33 pm

The clone issue CAN exist with system heads. If people use the same skin and near identical shapes. But, again... there really are a lot of skins out there. And the shape-modifications matter. 2 system heads with the same skin but with pretty different slider settings won't look like clones. 2 mesh heads of the same creator (assuming they aren't those new bento ones, at least) will tend to be noticeably similar/identical. Maybe partially BECAUSE they are more detailed, as well.

But hey, agree to disagree.

Oor wrote:I don't get it - why would you make your avatar a reflection of the typist's personality instead of a visual representation of your current character?


Even a character miles removed from the personality of the typist's personality is still a an expression and thus reflection of that typist, at some level. I am (of course) a very nice, thoughtful, humble and polite person that knows when to shut up. But if I were, for whatever reason, to express myself as a character that likes to provoke, argues until he is blue in the face and loves to sound condescending (perish the thought), I would still be drawing on 'me' to fuel that persona. And I'd still prefer that character not to look exactly like, say, you.

Btw... is it just coincidence, or does it appear that, on this forum, at least, the girls seem to appreciate mesh heads a whole lot more than the guys do?
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Elle Couerblanc
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Elle Couerblanc » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:19 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Btw... is it just coincidence, or does it appear that, on this forum, at least, the girls seem to appreciate mesh heads a whole lot more than the guys do?


I appreciate how beautifully they photograph - but in world the standard mesh head can look kind of frightening! Maybe its the profile? The side view of most of the lips looks like someone went a bit crazy with the lip plumpers!

Although, the Bento head for me is going to be a game changer. I bought the Catwa Bento and it makes me feel like "Elle" again - plus the lips are manageable too.

I am curious to see what Lelutka does with Bento seeing how they seem to have been the impetus behind the ridiculous lips A LA Bratz Dolls. If they have the same deformed, too much plastic surgery lip shape then they will be a big NO for me.

Duck lips BE GONE!

So far this is my fave look on Elle with the Bento head:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lizzie_le ... ed-public/
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Oor
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Oor » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:38 pm

Glaucon wrote:
Oor wrote:I don't get it - why would you make your avatar a reflection of the typist's personality instead of a visual representation of your current character?


Even a character miles removed from the personality of the typist's personality is still a an expression and thus reflection of that typist, at some level.


Well. Sort of. It's usually more like a reflection of the author's subjective impression of someone they've seen displaying the traits they are attempting to portray. Even then, I'm not sure that it can translate into "the way your Second Life cartoon looks isa reflection of your personality or lack thereof." I mean... which of the following show my personality...or lack thereof...




Those are all characters I've played in the last... probably 2-3 years (current to oldest). I'm either blind or have a really bad case of multiple personality disorder. Or no personality disorder. :mrgreen:

Or maybe the avatars that represent the fictional characters that are somewhat a very vague representation of their typist's impression of different personality types... really don't say much about personalities at all, in and of themselves.
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Tamar Luminos » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:59 pm

I adore mesh heads on everyone and think they do look vastly different, more so than system heads myself so that's an agree to disagree sorta thing. But as far as "characters reflecting the typist", I guess I'm in the same boat as Oor there, my characters are all vastly different looking- usually on purpose. I tend to switch out mesh heads, skins, hair, eyes, clothing styles to get a totally different look for a totally different feel for the character. Maybe it's a roleplay thing?
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Glaucon
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Glaucon » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:35 pm

(Nice pictures and all that).

Psychobabblelitphilosophically speaking, I don't really agree (with Oor and Tamar). Most people in SL obviously display some idealized self-image as their avatar (and 'person') in SL, if they have the energy and ability to get around to any idealizing. And even among the RP-ing crowd, most tend to play one character (or alts that might as well be one character) that is such a somewhat idealized self-image of them, or part of them. Most seem to go for an avatar that has at least SOME link to how they perceive themselves to be in RL. Older male players often go for an avi with gray hair, for example, because they want to appear somewhat like how they are in RL. Not all do, obviously. The short fat guy might play the muscular tall elf, and look totally different, but that doesn't mean that that avi isn't an expression of the typist, even if it is just an expression of what they perceive to be handsome, beautiful, interesting, compelling, etc. and most will still tend to have their avatar (and the character) have some connection with themselves. Even in serious RP sims, most players tend to play characters that somehow are really 'them. Maybe that character is a wayward Prince that has killed his brother, and not the loving father and husband and social worker that the character is in RL, most likely, in his RP, that player will at least partially play his character as himself, gravitate towards making the choices he himself might have made in situation X, and so forth, most likely refer to his character as 'me' in most OOC conversations, just as most people playing a video game will likely think of their controlled character as 'me', even if that character is a fantasy Witcher or a criminal in GTA. People identify with protagonists in fiction, and they identify even more with characters they control in roleplaying.

And even if you are talking about that minority of 'serious' RP-ers that really make an effort at playing characters that are distinct from themselves, are not in any way connected to them, they still draw on their own mind to supply those characters with the right make-up needed for them to to be anything but a flat cliché. It is the same in fiction. Often enough, you see the writer come up with character that they obviously have no real connection to. Like the evil-doer that is just paper-thin, without any depth, because the writer just could not or didn't bother to 'go there'. That is often what separates good writing from bad, good characters from bad ones. You can try to play a character so-and-so, but unless you can 'feel them', get in their head, occupy their head, temporarily, they will be off or just superficial. So, the smart writer tends typically tends to limit himself to more detailed descriptions and perspectives that he or she CAN get 'into'. It is probably a good thing that Stephen King typically doesn't employ female protagonists. And that Lena Dunham didn't make a TV series called 'Boys'.

And typically, in SL, among those RP-ers that really treat their characters as separate entities from themselves, this separation is often a lot less total than they imagine it to be. Sure, the shrewd Schendi slaver might be a very different character with a very different background from the proud Torvalslander they played before, but, during RP, an outside observer may notice that they act and talk rather similarly, do the same sort of thing, etc. Which only makes sense, because they are powered by the same set of brains with the same wiring. People tend to VASTLY over-estimate the apparent differences between their avatars and characters, just as people with alts often tend to think that they are very different (and will often deny being the alt of the other avi), while it is blatantly clear to the casual observer it is the same person.

And hey, sure... there might be a VERY SMALL group of RP-ers that really DO manage to maintain some iron wall of IC/OOC character separation, that manage to play different characters that make sense, don't have much in common, without having to 'crawl into their skin' themselves. Not every actor is a method actor either, after all. But even in those cases, that character will STILL be an artistic expression of them, and particular to them.

Take those (nice) pictures of your (Oor's) avatars. They certainly don't look the same. But... is there a theme? A similarity in style? Of course. Some between the avatars, and some because the person that took the pictures was you (if I go by the descriptions). And nothing wrong with that, either.

Anyway, I am sure that Darby meant something like 'express your personality or your vision of the character you want to play'. Doesn't really matter. Whether making an avi that is supposed to represent you, or making one that represents a fictional character that hasn't the slightest thing in common with you, I'd say that you want that avatar to be unique and 'your own', in as far as possible.
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Sasi
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Sasi » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:04 am

Glaucon, actually, I disagree. The example of male skin I showed, are worn by avatars having two different shapes. But they do look similar. Some popular skins, whatever the shape you build, will make people who wear them, despite different shape, look like siblings.

Look at the systems skins on this link below. How many times in Gor did you see these faces? Despite people used different shapes? Countless times.

https://www.google.ca/search?hl=fr&site ... dBvLVTRxM8

So, yes, the "clone" argument, sorry, is not valid. It's just psychologic. You block on it because the impossibility of modifying your shape. But actually, you can totally modify a face just in using different...

And for the design of an avatar, don't attribute the similitudes you think to spot to a question of personality. It's really just a question of taste. The face itself doesn't reflect a personality, but the choice of skin, makeup, head, etc, reflects definitely the taste of the typists and it's really the only detail you can gather from their personality. And of course, we have often a taste for some features over others.

And about taste...
@Elle: Me, it's the opposite, I hate most of the flat lips that women with system heads do, I like luscious and full lips :mrgreen: None of my avatar will have thin lips, never :D
Qingwen
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Qingwen » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:04 am

Bento does look promising, but on the other hand I have a moral (miserly?) objection to spending that much just to have a smoother version of the same head I got now. I haven't changed my shape substantially since I created my avatar in 2008 (except when roleplaying a photorealistic cat), but I have friends who are fluid in form and look different every day.

As to Glaucon's treatise, I largely agree with that. My characters are my creations and my creations are naturally expressions of my Self. Who else they gonna be? The difficulty in roleplay arises when one's character is used as a means to satisfy a need mismatched to the intentions of others, for example a need for love & belonging vs a need for fun & entertainment. Really nothing to do with the level of identification with their avatar.
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Glaucon
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Glaucon » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:23 pm

Sasi wrote:Glaucon, actually, I disagree. The example of male skin I showed, are worn by avatars having two different shapes. But they do look similar. Some popular skins, whatever the shape you build, will make people who wear them, despite different shape, look like siblings.


I just don't think that is true. I hardly ever recognized the shape people wore as being the same as someone else. But I certainly recognize the same mesh heads, now. And I don't think I have grown more observant. Besides, when it comes to mesh heads, there clearly are only a few to choose from. And with skins, which creators have been making for more than a decade now, there are many many choices. Sure, some will be more popular, but it isn't like you have a choice out of three options with the others on offer not being any good.

Of course, there always was and always will be a flavor of the month skin, mesh-head, look, etc. But it is not about what the people that copy others do, but about what the people that care about such things CAN do.

Sasi wrote:So, yes, the "clone" argument, sorry, is not valid. It's just psychologic. You block on it because the impossibility of modifying your shape. But actually, you can totally modify a face just in using different...


The 'argument' is invalid? The observation that a lot of avatars have the same (mesh) faces is 'not valid'? I am clearly not the only one that observed it. See others in this thread. Is it all in our minds? We deceive ourselves, in thinking we see the same faces (even though, in fact, the mesh-heads are indeed the same)? We get it wrong? I am not sure that that invalidation is valid. I invalidate your invalidation! :pft:

Sasi wrote:And for the design of an avatar, don't attribute the similitudes you think to spot to a question of personality. It's really just a question of taste.


Taste, personality... depends on how broad or how narrow you define personality, whether taste is considered a part of your personality or not, I guess (I'd say it is, but hey). But it is semantics, moot. Call it taste. Then you still don't want your expression of your own expression of your own TASTE to be limited to a few fixed faces to choose from, I'd imagine.

But well, yeah... Bento. That being rolled out over all viewers and meshead creators including loads of modification options (as with system heads), and the problem that I and others see (even if you think our 'seeing' is invalid) will go away. Yay

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