The new makeover thread

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Glaucon
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Glaucon » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:55 pm

Qingwen wrote:Bento does look promising, but on the other hand I have a moral (miserly?) objection to spending that much just to have a smoother version of the same head I got now. I haven't changed my shape substantially since I created my avatar in 2008 (except when roleplaying a photorealistic cat), but I have friends who are fluid in form and look different every day.


Sorta how I felt when updating my avi. I don't need the award for prettiest face in SL. I checked a few mesh heads, but it was obvious I wasn't going to find anything like the face I had been using. And I saw no reason to change my appearance to that made by someone else, just to get a bit more detail on the face. Waste of money and effort, too.

And again, some people change to mesh heads and end up looking worse, in my opinion. And I don't find good system faces lacking, at all. I guess it does depend on taste. And maybe on whether you look at avatars through the lens of SL photography.

I remember a debate, long ago, here, about lola's. You had those that insisted that system 'boobs' were really crappy, unrealistic and all that, and those that felt Lola's and other boob-jobs like that weren't an improvement. I wonder how we now look back on that, now that those boobs have been rendered completely obsolete by mesh bodies. Those still scare me, whenever I see a pair in SL. :fleeflee:
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Sasi
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Sasi » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:14 pm

The example I showed you, Glaucon, in the link I posted, shows clearly that these people, despite -different- shapes, look like sibling just because their skin have particular features that, whatever the shape you build, will always make them look similar with those wearing the same skin. You can modify your shape, you cannot modify the distinctive features of a skin. It's those features (the skin, -not- the shape) which create a clone effect.

So, yes, I think it's psychologic, sorry. Before the mesh heads, we could modify our shapes which gave us the impression of being different, when with some skins it was clearly not the case. I remember especially a skin from The Skinnery, with very pouty lips that has been very popular. All women wearing it, despite a difference of shape, looked like sisters. But with the mesh heads, as the possibilities of changing your shape are very limited, people block on this clone effect which always existed.
But as I told, if you were already good at making a system mesh face unique, you have still this possibility with the mesh heads. I will never meet my clone.

The funny thing is that actually, the same debate occured when the first mesh bodies have been released. People would have the same body, or you didn't need a mesh body because you could make a perfect body with the system one, or because the clothes etc... At the end, these arguments were proved wrong.

Every time a new improvment is released in SL, there are always a bunch of people to oppose. Mesh vs flexi, mesh body vs system body and now, mesh head vs system head.

It's like arguing against flat PC and TV screens in regretting the good old blocky ones...
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Qingwen
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Qingwen » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:31 am

Sasi wrote:Every time a new improvment is released in SL, there are always a bunch of people to oppose. Mesh vs flexi, mesh body vs system body and now, mesh head vs system head.

It's like arguing against flat PC and TV screens in regretting the good old blocky ones...



I don't oppose, but, like with any software, not everyone's an early adopter. I'd rather wait for the bugs to be worked out and watch for the prices to stabilise before buying. The one time I leaped before I looked... Win 10...

Glaucon wrote:Those still scare me, whenever I see a pair in SL. :fleeflee:


Made me think of that Woody Allen being chased by the giant boob scene...
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Oor
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Oor » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:58 am

Glaucon wrote:
► Show Spoiler


That was lot of words to say that the only way you could agree with what Darby said was to pretend he meant something else that he didn't say at all.

FYI, Stephen King is pretty universally revered for his female protagonists and significant female support characters.

Most of your post dealt with people who are either not role playing at all or have only ever been in SL Gor where there is, at best, for the most part, little more than a passing pretense at attempting to follow the RP conventions that exist as a baseline in most other role play genres. I forget what it's like sometimes, because I haven't really been "into the fray" in terms of SL Gor for a very long time.

You are probably right. The vast majority of people who play in SL Gor are playing some version of "themselves" and idealising themselves in their avatars.

We could probably disagree ad nauseum about whether those people are role players or not.
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Glaucon
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Glaucon » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:54 am

Oor wrote:FYI, Stephen King is pretty universally revered for his female protagonists and significant female support characters.


You are right. Probably not a good example. Has been a while since I read his stuff, but now that I think back... yes, not a good example.

Oor wrote:We could probably disagree ad nauseum about whether those people are role players or not.


I guess we could. Or not. There is no law that says that role-playing must involve adopting a role that is completely disconnected from yourself. I mean, clearly, someone playing dungeons and dragons with dice as a level 7 dwarf would be called a role-player, even if that dwarf, aside from loving dwarven mead and really digging hammers, also had a moral compass and talked very much like the player would, but with a bad Scottish accent. No one would fault a participant in a professional training role-playing session about how to deal with clients for answering like he or she would in that situation. No one would say that someone playing 'Baldur's Gate' and following his or her own gut feelings about any choices offered wasn't playing an RPG, either. Louis CK is playing himself in his shows, but no one would deny he is also playing a role at the same time.

Well, maybe you would. I think that is a very narrow conception of the idea of role-playing held by small pockets of online role-players, that has taken the logic of RP and build an ideal of total IC and OOC separation out of it. An ideal that is pretty hard to achieve, for reasons mentioned in my long post above. And one that one doesn't really NEED to aspire to, completely, because there is nothing wrong with playing your alter-ego rather than a character you share nothing with.

But can agree to disagree. And probably off topic. Maybe Danika can post some more pictures?
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Oor
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Oor » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:28 am

I think the concept of role playing, online, is different to the concept of roleplaying D&D or LARPing. I suspect you know that, and realise that it's silly to bring up Brenda's Interview Role Play Exercise in this discussion.

And I'm really not sure that, outside the confines of SL Gor, it really is that small of a pocket of players who separate IC/OOC well enough to allow for the other conventions of RP to be adhered to. Certainly people - even authors like King who are very good at getting into a "different" head space - tend to agree that the actions of their "good" characters are good and the actions of their "bad" characters are bad - in that sense we are injecting the "self" into our fiction whether it's online or otherwise. But this idea that everyone is "playing the self" to some idealised extent needs to die, because it's simply not true. I'd go as far as to say it's one of the reasons why there are no "villains" in SL Gor, and everyone's sitting around drinking tea trying to be liked by everyone, instead of pushing plot.

It's a neat trick, misrepresenting my argument, blaming my "sort" and then pointing out that we're offtopic so as to bring said discussion to an end. But please stop it.

Glaucon wrote:Maybe Danika can post some more pictures?


Image
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Manon Seid
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Manon Seid » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:17 pm

I play villain at times!! He is totally inspired by my real ME personality...except when he is killing babies... and slaves I suppose :P Uhm and I don't recall ever punching anyone in the face, though I DID come close once when I caught the fucker who had just stolen my bike. Anyway, I also don't think I ever mugged innocent by-passers and i definitely never raped anyone. But apart from all that, he is practically me, except when he reacts in accordance with his morals and values that I don't share at all. He is a freak from Gor! He don't look much like me either. For starters I am a gal, a northerner and blonde and nowhere near as muscular hah! I don't have the same eye color or walk or complexion and I certainly don't dress like him. He mostly looks like a dude I was once madly in love with RL. Actually now I come to think of it I suspect he might be my complete opposite in looks and possibly in action in every way I can think of. Wait, does that actually prove Darby's point in an odd backwards kind of way?

And for the record, Glaucon and Oor:
I just died there on your last lines. LOL! Agrees with Oor in the end :D
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Tamar Luminos
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Tamar Luminos » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:52 pm

I've been roleplaying since I was 12. And that's a reeeeeeally long time ago. I've been roleplaying in Second Life for 8...maybe 9 years? I forget, but I've played so many different characters I've lost count. And I read this thread, which has really morphed into something else but still an interesting discussion and the first thing that pops into my head is, "good god, I'd be so bored if all I played was myself over and over and over again for 8 years..." LOL

There are a few hairs being split here, and a couple of fundamentally different ways of approaching roleplay/soulplay (which is really a more appropriate term for what Glaucon is describing, from my experiences).

Some of us really do enjoy playing characters that aren't like ourselves, enjoy going "what if" and playing something crazy, over the top, or a certain character type we stumble onto in a book or movie and like, but good roleplayers, like good actors, can really keep IC and OOC separate, it's not that hard, honestly, for those types of people. Perhaps it is for other types of people who need to feel that more intimate connection with their online avatars, who for whatever reason, feel the need to be more authentic and honest in their online dealings, even in roleplay, possibly in an attempt at a deeper connection with people of like mind?

Nothing wrong with either approach, really- the problem appears to come in when you have the two different types coming into contact, unaware or willfully refusing to admit that the other is a valid approach and expecting others to react like they do and getting upset when they don't, or one group insisting it is something other than what it is- like sims/players with lifestyler elements insisting they are for straight roleplay and then getting confused and upset when a straight roleplayer attempts to interact with them on the false assumption that that is what they are- and confusion and frustration ensues.
"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)
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Glaucon
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Glaucon » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:06 pm

Qingwen wrote:I'd rather wait for the bugs to be worked out and watch for the prices to stabilise before buying. The one time I leaped before I looked... Win 10...


I got suckered into that one too. Gah. :evil:

As for time always proving the advocates of the latest thing right: I think the score is rather mixed, really. Mesh bodies? Well, not sure how the very first ones were (and I can't say that the few male ones out there are problem-free, still), but overall, mesh bodies were a clear improvements. But the Lola breasts and other body-parts before that... well, in hindsight, I think the jury is no longer out on that one.

And in general? Flat-screens: Sure (though they got a lot cheaper, if you weren't an early adopter). I-watches and google-glass? Not so much. Zeppelins? Maybe not. Self-driving cars? Occulus Rift? Will have to wait and see.

I won't say that mesh heads are the equivalent of Lola's, sculpt asses (or Woody Allen's giant boobs), but I will certainly wait for the Bento-slider heads, myself. And I'd recommend the same thing to anyone currently on the fence about them.

And (sorry Oor) just a little more on this:

Tamar Luminos wrote:There are a few hairs being split here, and a couple of fundamentally different ways of approaching roleplay/soulplay (which is really a more appropriate term for what Glaucon is describing, from my experiences).


Yes, it has been called that, here. I would not really describe myself as a soul-player (or I, too, would be pretty schizo), but I'd say that most players that dabble in RP in SL are closer to being soul-players that to players playing characters they felt unconnected to, certainly. I am sure of it. Most fit somewhere in between. And many are more like soul-players than they care to admit to themselves or others. Something which is often revealed when the RP goes 'against' their character, somehow, and they start acting up, suddenly (godmodding, metagaming, invalid calls, etc.). And then they will often say something like: "Of course, it is a character and I am fine if it loses, but... etc.". I have played characters that were supposed to be very different from myself (and I do hope they were) and that were supposed to 'lose' somehow, in RP scenarios. But I was still aware that there was something of me in those characters. And when one died for some stupid reason, I was not happy about it. Had to hold myself back from getting all mad.

The thing I would object to is the misunderstanding that some seem to suffer from: that you have soul-players on the one hand, and 'pure'-RP-ers' on the other. It is confusing. Of course, many players in SL that do engage in RP barely RP at all, mixing OOC and RP freely, hardly bothering to distinguish their character from themselves, the players, clueless of big 'RP sins' like metagaming, etc. I think those are the type that Tamar is referring to, above. But that isn't because they are soul-players', but because they are not really RP-ers, or at least not versed in the ways of how RP is done among the more 'advanced' RP-ing groups in SL and in other online RP venues. But a person could be a PURE 'soulplayer', maybe even literally play their RL person, use your RL name, model their avi after themselves in RL, etc. but still follow all the normal conventions, the story/events in the scene, and logic of RP, avoiding godmodding, metagaming, not getting mad should they 'lose' and all that. Still be a 'PURE RP-er'. And it should not matter to anyone else, either, as long as they play a character that others can have good RP with. Even when the other player or players aren't 'soul-players' at all, themselves. You see a lot of that, in the RP in the vast sea of loosely 'D/s' based sims in SL, with the 'sub' playing a character somewhat close to themselves (the 'soul-player') and the 'D' playing a far more extreme role, swinging whips, raping, pillaging and being generally scary (right before logging to go do their taxes, pat their cat and call their mum).

Extreme case, but should serve to show that being more or less 'close/connected' to your character(s) isn't really the same thing as being more or less of an RP-er.

But Oor and Manon made a fair point: Since we are all such nice and upstanding people, and since villains and other extreme characters are often what drive stories, it probably would not be ideal if everyone was a soul-player. So, have at it, baby-killers.
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Manon Seid
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Re: The new makeover thread

Postby Manon Seid » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:15 am

Well the thing is that even though my villain character is so far removed from me he IS me in a way. I'd be upset if he died, even with a great story line leading up to it. Id go with it no problem, but I would be so sad loosing him. Even though he is such a despicable bastard doing unforgivable things he still has good in him and I find it so incredibly fascinating seeing how he reacts to different scenarios he is facing, plus i played him for so many years and he has developed his personality through the years. I follow the code of rp and I have no issues whatsoever with losing, still I am not entirely sure if I am strict roleplayer or if there IS a tiny bit of soulplayer in me too. It wont really matter for the people I encounter. To them I am strict roleplayer. But to me? I frankly don't know. I mean why am I in this insanely time consuming game after so many years? Just to write stories? Would it not be smarter to spend my time writing a book then? Or am I in this crazy game to learn something crucial about myself? I am honestly leaning to the last explanation, even if that is sooo weird, I know.

I think my point is that separating the two concepts might not be as straight forward, the definition of them has so many layers. Not entirely easy for me anyway.
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