Has Gor changed?

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Rhett
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Rhett » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:33 am

I debated whether or not to respond to this rubbish about "natural" tendencies of men and women. First of all, we are beginning to scientifically understand that gender and the expression thereof are not concrete and innate, but rather learned through socialization starting when we are born, and even before this. If you give a male toddler a pink toy before you tell him that pink is for girls, he will never know the difference and will not associate pink with femininity. We are also socialized to understand masculinity and femininity on deeper levels than this. Your post, Morgus, and the philosophy that you seem to base your entire world around is innately flawed. There is nothing "natural" about the way we are socialized. It is "artificial" in the sense that it is based on societal norms, culture, and other socialization processes rather than on some hard wired thing in our brains. If it was so natural, and we were so hardwired to be dominant men or submissive women, then everyone would fall into those categories. Obviously, there are dominant women and submissive men and switchy transgendered folks, etc. etc. The books were written originally during a time when some (many) men feared women gaining political and social power that men (mostly white men) had enjoyed through repression and an unequal political and social system. John Norman wrote the books as a response to feminism. Yes, they are sci-fi but often sci-fi is ripe with both political and social commentary. Just look at any other sci-fi series. If you are going to take the books as some sort of canonical anthology that guides your life philosophy, then it would be wise to also understand the context in which they were written, no? The reason women, in the real world, desire to be in control or dominant is not because they are sexually frustrated and want to be like men. All men are not simply sex hungry, dominant animals. To attribute such sweeping generalizations to both men and women is unfair, inaccurate and only deprives people, both men and women, of existing in their truly natural state which has very little to do with that equipment between their legs. Our very language is even tainted with this gendered socialization process. If a person is nurturing or caring, they are often called maternal, which is considered a feminine quality. As a father, I am sure you have it in you to be "maternal" at times, as well, and yet I doubt you consider yourself feminine in any way. As you can see, that is a flaw of our language and our overall socialization process that sees everything through a gender binary.

There is also something else at play in your post which Nazira touched upon. Fantasy is different from reality. When you mix the two, some very troubling things can occur. For one, it is completely natural for humans to experiment with sexual fantasies. Gor is a world of fantasy. It was never meant to be practiced in RL and even JN states this himself. He wrote an entire book about fantasies that is not part of the series. The whole thing with make believe is that everyone involved understands its make believe. If one person believes it is real, then it becomes something really creepy. SL Gor, for many of us, is simply a playground to explore our more seedy and inappropriate or even dangerous desires. It should not be some extension of reality unless all parties are consenting to such.

Lastly, you talked about how you wouldn't want your daughters to be beaten or treated like the women in the books. What your are missing is that, as Nazira pointed out, Gor is about misogyny. Misogyny is not just physical. It is also psychological and social. Most of us actually still live in a very misogynistic environment. Except for that misogyny has taken on new forms because the old forms are no longer deemed acceptable. You are engaging in a misogyny when you relegate the "natural order" of the world on women. You are being misogynistic when you assume that no woman could truly want to be dominant and that all women desire to be submissive to men. The fact that you believe women who insult or abuse men are just frustrated because they are not deemed attractive to men is sexist and misogynistic. Has it ever occurred to you that some women may not give a damn whether or not a man finds them attractive? A woman's life and choices do not always involve appearing attractive to men, just as your life and choices do not always consider what women will find attractive. And given that all humans have different tastes about what is attractive or not, your explanation is even less relevant. Beating a women or physically controlling her is just the other side of the coin of what you are advocating for in your worldview. It undercuts your humanity, it disrespects the women in your life, and it buys into a bullshit system that is not at all "natural" even among wild animals.
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Theoden
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Theoden » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:45 am

Guys, 50 Shades of Grey is gonna be a movie now. Morgus is right. He's a genius.
Rhett
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Rhett » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:51 am

Theoden wrote:Guys, 50 Shades of Grey is gonna be a movie now. Morgus is right. He's a genius.


:facepalm:
He is but a poor philosopher who holds a view so narrow as to exclude forms not to his personal taste. - John Galsworthy
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Theoden
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Theoden » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:52 am

Don't listen to these fools, Morgus.

p.s. If you ever do run a sex slave camp, I'll come visit,kk? wink wink
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Leah » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:31 am

Rhett wrote:
Theoden wrote:Guys, 50 Shades of Grey is gonna be a movie now. Morgus is right. He's a genius.


:facepalm:


Theoden, every time you mention 50 Shades, god kills a kitten. Stoppit!

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Glaucon
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Glaucon » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:02 am

I don't really get it, guys. Morgus is clearly a life-styler. The shirt gave that away from the start. We are all familiar with those, right? Rather than just RP-ing the books, they subscribe to (part of) the message of Norman in the books.

So, sure, what Morgus is saying is going to be politically incorrect. Sure, most here are likely to disagree, but... this moral outrage seems a bit silly for two reasons:

Firstly, it shows a lack of respect. If started RP-ing in Jerusalem 36 AD, being an atheist, I think I ought to expect some of the people playing with me to be actual Christians that respect the source material (the Bible, in this case) more than I do, including the 'message'.

Secondly, most of us here at least PRETEND that we have read some of the Gor books. In them, Norman expresses opinions that go much further than what Morgus expresses here (even if they are slightly veiled). So, we SHOULD be used to it, including any cringing. We chose to play in Gor, based on a world thought up by a guy with very strong and very politically incorrect opinions that we may very well not agree with, but that we cannot failed to have noticed quite clearly from the first moment we stepped into gorean RP.

Fair enough if you do not agree at all (I don't), but it is a bit lame to revert back to politically correct reflexes and mockery when someone posts in a thread about books written by an author that so clearly despises political correctness and so clearly wants his readers to move past ingrained cultural reflexes and to think for themselves with an open mind.
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Glaucon » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:50 am

Rhett wrote:I debated whether or not to respond to this rubbish about "natural" tendencies of men and women. First of all, we are beginning to scientifically understand that gender and the expression thereof are not concrete and innate, but rather learned through socialization starting when we are born, and even before this.


Actually, no. This was we thought we were beginning to understand in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Since then, we have begun to understand that there is a clear limit to this 'tabula rasa' idea and that socialization is clearly NOT the only cause of behavioral sex differences.

If you give a male toddler a pink toy before you tell him that pink is for girls, he will never know the difference and will not associate pink with femininity.


Actually, no. I read of research that seemed to prove that girls, on average do seem to have an innate preference for some colors that differs somewhat from boys. Maybe not pink, but... lighter, softer colors. At least, this seems to be the case across cultures (which isn't hard proof because all cultures are 'contaminated' with influences, of course).

More significantly, there has been a heap of research done into children of different genders playing with toys in general. And sorry, but, on average, the boys will leave the dolls and tiny clothes alone and go for the little soldiers, toy pistols, flashy space-ships, and the girls show the expected 'sexist' behavior the other way around (on average). They have done their best to rule out the influence of socialization in various ways, but the pattern remains. Because we don't experiment with children up to the point of letting them grow up without any socialization, this cannot be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, but really... Those that insist that it is all the product of socialization (that it is all nurture and non of it is nature) to close their eyes to observable facts. As people that cling to an ideology tend to do.

We are also socialized to understand masculinity and femininity on deeper levels than this. Your post, Morgus, and the philosophy that you seem to base your entire world around is innately flawed. There is nothing "natural" about the way we are socialized. It is "artificial" in the sense that it is based on societal norms, culture, and other socialization processes rather than on some hard wired thing in our brains.


Actually, it would be odd for us to be socialized in a way that would be completely opposite to our nature. The 'artificial' element of socialization has to start with the 'natural' element of what humans are, biologically. If you have clay, you cannot build an Eifel Tower.

If it was so natural, and we were so hardwired to be dominant men or submissive women, then everyone would fall into those categories.


No, that is not a logical conclusion. One sex could be hard-wired to display certain behavior, but the deviations from the average for each sex could well be such that one man might display far less of something than a woman, even if it was a typically 'male' characteristic. Something being a (partial) product of nature doesn't mean that everyone has to have it equally.

If you are going to take the books as some sort of canonical anthology that guides your life philosophy, then it would be wise to also understand the context in which they were written, no?


I think Morgus understands that context. My guess is he pretty much fits into that context, himself. The books are not that old, some were written very recently.

Our very language is even tainted with this gendered socialization process.


'Tainted'? Let me put it this way: There is no evidence of any culture anywhere in history that did not have at least some clear element of male 'dominance', which no doubt got reflected in the local language, including cultures with languages not at all influenced by each other. So, this 'taint' seems to go together with being human. Historically and anthropologically, we are the unique culture, in insisting on equality between the sexes (which I am all for). And, being human, we allow our recently created ideals to turn into an ideology that prompts many of us to want to rewrite our past. If the facts don't fit the ideals, change the facts (which I am NOT all for).

As you can see, that is a flaw of our language and our overall socialization process that sees everything through a gender binary.


This 'flaw' (it may be a flaw for all I know) is clearly a human universal. If some weird aliens were to abduct humans and displace them to another planet (say, on the other side of the sun) and brainwash them so at to forget all culture, this 'flaw' would emerge again, soon enough.

There is also something else at play in your post which Nazira touched upon....If one person believes it is real, then it becomes something really creepy. SL Gor, for many of us, is simply a playground to explore our more seedy and inappropriate or even dangerous desires. It should not be some extension of reality unless all parties are consenting to such.


I am fairly sure that Morgus (and other life-stylers) understand that we are not actually on Gor. Norman himself understands that as well. That doesn't stop him from having the opinions he expresses in the books, opinions Morgus seems to share to a degree. It has little to do with mixing fantasy and reality.

What your are missing is that, as Nazira pointed out, Gor is about misogyny.


No, he is not missing that. He is disagreeing with it. Just as Norman doesn't feel Gor is about misogyny. Personally, I feel there is a clear misogynistic element to Norman's books. But then again, I am not a life-styler. As I read Norman (and as his followers seem to read him), the male-female relationships on his fictional planet are more 'natural' and therefore better and more satisfying for those concerned (well, for the lucky ones that aren't fed to sleen, atc. at least) than the male-female relationships in our modern world (something about them is better, somehow).

You are engaging in a misogyny when you relegate the "natural order" of the world on women.


That would make me a misogynist as well, then. I think humans probably resemble apes like gorilla's and chimpanzees (and most mammals) quite a bit, and among those, the 'male species' is 'dominant'. Add to that the fact that men have been dominant throughout recorded history and (as far as we can tell) prehistory. So, yeah... that pretty much makes men being dominant in that sense 'the natural order', if you want to use that dated phrase. Sorry. :)

(Personally, I don't really think that 'following the natural' order is a moral prerogative. Cleaning your bum after taking a dump is not part of the natural order either, but I am happy that most people do it anyway.)

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Oor
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Oor » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:00 pm

Gender construction theory, Western women as an oppressed class and bona fide misogyny, all in one thread.

I am not fucking touching this.

Nope.

NOPE.

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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Morgus » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:18 pm


I realize I'm fairly new here, but I've been around online Gor since the mid-90s, and what I find odd is why so many people RP online Gor but hate it so much ... Gor isn't politically correct, but many who RP think it should be ... men in Gor are masculine - they are hunters, warriors, the head of the household, but RP Gor wants to question and/or change that ... women on Gor are submissive, but some Gor RPers say that is wrong, misogynistic, outdated, not conforming to today's standards; of course it doesn't - it's Gor ...

Perhaps there is an SL sim somewhere where everything is seen through rose-colored glasses, where bunnies play with lions and unicorns prance happily around rainbows ... where men pussy-foot around their natural instincts and are labeled insecure if they assert any masculinity ... where they can't have opinions backed by thousands of years of history but is contrary to the current political environment ...

One of the funniest things I've heard in a long time:

Nazira said:
Listen, as a woman (feminist, sexual creature who has no shortage of men lining up to fuck her -in RL dude, not SL-) I can tell you without doubt that all I hear when you write is ignorance and hatred and profound insecurity. Nothing else, no matter how polite you try and make it sound.

I don't doubt that at all ... men have been fucking women since time immemorial - that's what we do ... any woman can get fucked any time she wants - just walk into a room of men and say that and you will get many takers ... but it's not because of your outstanding personality - it's because of what you have and all cats are grey in the dark ... and that feminism thing is just one good-sized asteroid away from extinction ...

It's not from ignorance, or hatred, or insecurity I write, it's from observation, seeing about what some women write, how they are quick to label anything that attacks their insecurities, anything that reminds them they are feminine ... I'm not a life-styler, have never owned a slave, just happen to believe that men should be men and women should be women - and that's not Gorean values but lost earth values ... you want to RP Gor but want no part of what Gor is ... in the end, it's all made up, it's fiction, there are no real Goreans as Gor doesn't exist; there are only principles outlined in story book form (much like the Bible, which is also fiction but gets a lot of play) ... and, yes, not everything according to the natural order is desirable - I also like to see the roll in the loo ...
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Garrgon » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:57 pm

Morgus wrote: ... but it's not because of your outstanding personality - it's because of what you have and all cats are grey in the dark ...


You clearly don't know Nazira.
Nope. Nope. Nevermind.

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