Has Gor changed?

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JackoS
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby JackoS » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:43 pm

Well the idea of seeking the advantage is understandable... it doesn't seem to me that Gor is a place where the vanquished can talk afterwards, or make claims of unfairness... :mrgreen: Lets be honest, there are no Geneva Conventions there
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Theoden
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Theoden » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:01 am

Does anyone really believe John Norman is some genius writer akin to Tolkien or the Song of Ice and Fire guy and would create an immersive world within 30 books that would have little to no inconsistencies?

This guy is a pulp novel writer. He wings it. If there is a lore inconsistency, he'll bandage it with more lore.
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Morgus
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Morgus » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:10 am

And yet many who disparage him continue to play in his sandbox ... even the staunchest supporters concede his writings aren't "genius" and after thirty-three Gor books some inconsistencies can be found, but people just love to play Gor, all the while deriding its creator ... it's like TV - you don;t like it, change the channel ... you don't like Gor, well, you draw the conclusion ... but, but, but - you're here anyway ...
"There are no mere points of honor." (24:63)
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DarbyDollinger
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby DarbyDollinger » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:05 am

I don't think it's an issue of being pulp or not. It's more an issue of how he writes. He's not the same sort of writer as Tolkein, who spent years writing an elaborate, and relatively consistent, background for his stories. Norman supposedly doesn't write a lot of background, or do a lot of editing while he's writing. So inconsistencies are probably always going to slip through.

That said, I tend to agree with Glaucon. Although there might be the occasional inconsistency in the writing, most of the confusion is just caused by the relatively unclear way in which Norman writes. But then again, in his defence he's not a technical or legal writer who's trying to write with precision. I'm sure that when he sat down to write Tarnsman he didn't imagine that one day RPers would be going through his words with a fine-tooth comb, trying to interpret them for the purpose of roleplay.
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Darius of Turia
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Darius of Turia » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:10 pm

Anyone also notice the degeneration of free women in the books? In like the first six or so they seemed reasonable people, nice enough and helping out. Even honorable at times. Also slaves seemed more miserable and happier as free women. Then after raiders they seemed to turn into miserable conniving deceiving dishonorable cunts and the slaves turned into happy wonderful amazing creatures and suddenly all fw were only happy when they were slaves.

I swear in the later books i cant stand his portrayal of free women, it saddens me that he cant even admit that a woman might be at least SOMEWHAT happy as a free woman any more.
"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
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Theoden
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Theoden » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:51 am

Morgus wrote:And yet many who disparage him continue to play in his sandbox ... even the staunchest supporters concede his writings aren't "genius" and after thirty-three Gor books some inconsistencies can be found, but people just love to play Gor, all the while deriding its creator ... it's like TV - you don;t like it, change the channel ... you don't like Gor, well, you draw the conclusion ... but, but, but - you're here anyway ...



Dear True Gor Proponent a.k.a. Mr. Red Tank Top,

I like Gor. I never said I didn't. If I didn't, I would be playing in Game of Thrones. But I'm not.

All I said is that I don't think you should read John Norman's books like a bible... it's not a well developed immersive world like Tolkiens. It's written ad hoc. There is a lot of inconsistencies and instead of trying to find some creative mental gymnastics to prove it's not an inconsistency, you could just admit that he doesn't really have the time to sit down and develop a concrete world like other world-creators.

Darius of Turia wrote:Anyone also notice the degeneration of free women in the books? In like the first six or so they seemed reasonable people, nice enough and helping out. Even honorable at times. Also slaves seemed more miserable and happier as free women. Then after raiders they seemed to turn into miserable conniving deceiving dishonorable cunts and the slaves turned into happy wonderful amazing creatures and suddenly all fw were only happy when they were slaves.

I swear in the later books i cant stand his portrayal of free women, it saddens me that he cant even admit that a woman might be at least SOMEWHAT happy as a free woman any more.


Someone once told me he got a divorce, and ever since then his books have been more anti-FW, and more pro-slave. But that's only what I heard from one guy... might be wrong, I never looked into it.
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Glaucon
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Glaucon » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:33 am

Regarding a clear change, I have to agree with Darius. Norman's perspective/message does seem to have changed, there. Not that he was 'pro FW' in the first books, but the earlier books did contain free women/non-slave women not ending up as slaves with a degree of dignity, humanity, a touch of honor and possibly even happiness. There seems to be very little of that in the later books, as far as I can tell.

Still, (echoing Darby) that doesn't really mean that his Gor has changed. Just that his stories, characters and perspective have changed. FW are still FW.
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Morgus
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Morgus » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:22 am

Theodon - if you notice I did say there are inconsistencies ... writing thirty-three Gor books over almost five decades is a great undertaking no matter how one looks at it ... some were caught before publishing, some were not ... shit happens ...

If all authors wrote the same we wouldn't be having these discussions ... Gor is a well-thought-out world, rich with flora and fauna of all kinds ... the stories told in the books are on about the adolescent male level but it's the underlying philosophy of the natural order that is presented in them that many find more revealing than the actual stories ... with the constant emasculation of men many people find in Gor the "something" that is missing from present-day life, and role-playing those stories in itself is an escape to those times when men were men and must have some attraction for those that do so ...

BTW, John Norman (Dr Lange) had been married to the same woman for fifty-eight years ... and he still teaches philosophy at Queens College of the City University of New York - check out my tcjn.info web page ... believe only half of what you see and none of hat you hear ...

I wish you well ...
"There are no mere points of honor." (24:63)
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Darius of Turia
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Darius of Turia » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:48 am

Well then morgus, I call bs that there is no fw who are happy have some humanity and don't make you cringe when introduced. It's unfair that JN refuses to portray them
"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
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Morgus
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Morgus » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:39 pm

Slaves cringe, darius ... free men do not ... and from what I've seen in most role play over the years many FW have "queen bitch" , "fearsome panther" , or some stupid shit in their description that tend to want them to be seen as other than warm-hearted ... they perpetuate the stereotype ... I have met free women who portrayed "normal" women, who haven't tried to come across as bitchy or entitled ... the women in the books are seen as more slave to their roles of haughty entitlement ... if I had to walk around in fifty pounds of clothing rather than be free in my nakedness I'd be bitchy, too <grins> ... it's my opinion that the portrayal of free women in the books can be correlated to the feminist movement that has so much socially castrated the role of men in society, while the slave girls present the freedom of women who enjoy being women rather than those who are always trying to put men down ... misogynistic, no; just showing how much the natural order has disintegrated so much in today's society ... I wish you well ...
"There are no mere points of honor." (24:63)

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