Is conflict RP still possible?

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Dyce
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Dyce » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:41 am

Viggo wrote:In any case, I teach at Gorean Campus the Scarlet Codes course.


I question exactly which Codes you teach.

Are they similar to my own training system that I have posted here on the forums in the past? With Codes from the novels with quote support?

Or are they those made-up things that someone created back in the 90's in chat rooms?

For example, aside from allusions and a generic "so it says in the codes", the only direct listing of the Warrior Codes in the novels is the 97th aphorism. All others are "genericized" and not spoken of in a direct, clean statement like the 97th is.

"The 97th Aphorism in the Codes I was taught," I said, "is in the form of a riddle: "What is invisible but more beautiful than diamonds?"
"And the answer?" inquired Labenius.
"That which is silent but deafens thunder."
The men regarded one another.
"And what is that?" asked Labenius.
"The same," said I, "as that which depresses no scale but is weightier than gold."
"And what is that?" asked Labenius.
"Honor," I said."
- Page 304-305 - Vagabonds of Gor
Viggo
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:42 am

Theo,

I made it clear, I was talking about average Gorean that RPed in the cities. Yes Kur have rapid fire weapons, yes outlaws can, yes panthers, and red savages, and pirates. But that was not the content of the topic. It was in general raid/combat conditions at a BTB sim, and I don't need to win arguments like you seem obsessed with. I give my opinion based on what I have read, and people can take from it what they will. The fact you need to prove every point wrong of every single person that you disagree with on a forum, shows you need to step away and get a RL lol...really feel bad for you.

..just fyi...Like I said in that forum, BTB if you go to a city you are not apart of you are usually put on a pike unless perhaps if you are a merchant or slaver. So to say they would not only allow an enemy scarlet/outlaw/torvie/panther into their city but armed to the teeth without being escorted..well in your own words "that is ridiculous".

:shh:
Viggo
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:51 am

Dyce wrote:
Viggo wrote:In any case, I teach at Gorean Campus the Scarlet Codes course.


I question exactly which Codes you teach.

Are they similar to my own training system that I have posted here on the forums in the past? With Codes from the novels with quote support?

Or are they those made-up things that someone created back in the 90's in chat rooms?

For example, aside from allusions and a generic "so it says in the codes", the only direct listing of the Warrior Codes in the novels is the 97th aphorism. All others are "genericized" and not spoken of in a direct, clean statement like the 97th is.

"The 97th Aphorism in the Codes I was taught," I said, "is in the form of a riddle: "What is invisible but more beautiful than diamonds?"
"And the answer?" inquired Labenius.
"That which is silent but deafens thunder."
The men regarded one another.
"And what is that?" asked Labenius.
"The same," said I, "as that which depresses no scale but is weightier than gold."
"And what is that?" asked Labenius.
"Honor," I said."
- Page 304-305 - Vagabonds of Gor


Not the made up ones, it is 5 week course of different topics the codes cover and I only use quote codes. Like the one you posted, but I do it in a topic format with examples from books instead of just posted quotes. Anyone can go read the quotes online, but I tried to add quotes with examples of Scarlet behavior in the books to go along with the codes to grasp the concepts.

example from my class:

The Code of the Warrior was, in general, characterized by a rudimentary chivalry, emphasizing loyalty to the Pride Chiefs and the Home Stone. It was harsh, but with a certain gallantry, a sense of honor that I could respect. A man could do worse than live by such a code.
Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Pages 40 - 41

- Notes:

To help us better understand the codes and conduct of a Scarlet, Tarl uses the Earth term "chivalry" to describe them. Also as we talked about before, the loyalty to Home Stone and City Leaders.

-chivalry

1. the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, esp courage, honor, justice, and a readiness to help the weak
2. courteous behavior, esp towards women

Example:

"Rise," said the Tatrix to Ost, "or you will die on your belly like the serpent you are."
"I can't," wept Ost. "I can't."
The Tatrix coldly lifted her gloved hand. When it fell so too would the whip.
"No," I said.
Slowly, every muscle straining to keep my balance, the cords in my legs and back like tortured cables, I reached out my hand to Ost's and, struggling in agony to keep my balance, added the weight of his yoke to mine as I drew him to his knees.
There was a gasp from the silver-masked women in the room. One or two of the warriors, heedless of the proprieties of Tharna, acknowledged my deed by smiting their shields with the bronze heads of their spears.
-Outlaw of Gor, Chapter 11
Dyce
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Dyce » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:06 am

But your quote is not a code or of the codes. It is Tarl's opinion about the codes. The opinion of an ignorant Earth man that had just arrived on Gor attempting to grasp an idea that he is unaccustomed to.

In the overall view of the Warrior Codes, it is a horrible example. Especially since in the very next novel, there is a gaggle of Warriors lead by Thorn outside of Tharna who are chasing down a woman to enslave her simply because she's outside the gates. Both the Warriors and the woman being of the same city. Tarl questioned why they would do such since city laws protect their citizens and Thorn replies that they are not inside of the city.

This idea of chivalry is not an all-encompassing notion, especially since Tarl underwent a terrible ordeal that stripped him of his fantasies of an ideal world in Raiders of Gor. As Samos stated to Tarl near the end of the novel, the entire ordeal of Tarl being enslaved in the marsh and so forth was engineered by Samos in order for Tarl to understand his basic humanity and see past his codes.

Tarl's outlook changes completely over the course of the novels. Instead of using Tarl's ignorant opinions, I would urge you to take an overview of the codes spanning the entire series and formulate your own opinion.

There is certainly nothing in the Codes about helping the weak whatsoever. In fact, on the contrary, the codes speak more about survival of the fittest, as does the entirety of the Gorean idea of war. When a stronger force conquers a weaker city, bulk populations are slain, enslaved, etc. One's personal idea of helping the weak is exactly that - personal. The idea of chivalry and helping the weak implies pity and per the second novel, pity is a forbidden emotion.
Viggo
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:23 am

Dyce wrote:But your quote is not a code or of the codes. It is Tarl's opinion about the codes. The opinion of an ignorant Earth man that had just arrived on Gor attempting to grasp an idea that he is unaccustomed to.

In the overall view of the Warrior Codes, it is a horrible example. Especially since in the very next novel, there is a gaggle of Warriors lead by Thorn outside of Tharna who are chasing down a woman to enslave her simply because she's outside the gates. Both the Warriors and the woman being of the same city. Tarl questioned why they would do such since city laws protect their citizens and Thorn replies that they are not inside of the city.

This idea of chivalry is not an all-encompassing notion, especially since Tarl underwent a terrible ordeal that stripped him of his fantasies of an ideal world in Raiders of Gor. As Samos stated to Tarl near the end of the novel, the entire ordeal of Tarl being enslaved in the marsh and so forth was engineered by Samos in order for Tarl to understand his basic humanity and see past his codes.

Tarl's outlook changes completely over the course of the novels. Instead of using Tarl's ignorant opinions, I would urge you to take an overview of the codes spanning the entire series and formulate your own opinion.

There is certainly nothing in the Codes about helping the weak whatsoever. In fact, on the contrary, the codes speak more about survival of the fittest, as does the entirety of the Gorean idea of war. When a stronger force conquers a weaker city, bulk populations are slain, enslaved, etc. One's personal idea of helping the weak is exactly that - personal. The idea of chivalry and helping the weak implies pity and per the second novel, pity is a forbidden emotion.


Sorry, but I have to disagree. If you read the interaction outside Tharna again, you will see that the woman was of Ko-Ro-Ba the same as Tarl was and she ran to slavery then to be saved by the destroyer of her Home Stone.

As far as Tarl's remarks of the codes, it is his opinion. But he, unlike us, knows the codes fully and so can give a very accurate opinion as most of what we know of the codes is Tarl himself quoting them throughout the books to us.


I was specially drilled in the Code of the Warrior Caste.
Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Page 41


In regards to the Scarlets and the woman outside the city, it is Gorean and per the codes to raid and enslave women not of their home stone. We learn in Tarnsmen of Gor, to be an official tarnsmen they have to fly to an enemy city and capture one of their FW and bring her home in his collar. The chivalry talked about, is mostly kept to the citizens in his own home stone.

It is not about pity, it is about Honor. Not slaughtering the weak if very common in fact, not to just point out the quote I gave about Ost. In your opinion tarl should have let ost die because he was weak, but when tarl saved him the warriors in the room saluted him by slamming their spears against shield. You also have a code from the book that says a Scarlet will not draw on an unarmed person, per the "weak and pity" ideal, if someone is unarmed they are weaker and scarlets should not have pity that they are unarmed and just hack them down. But the codes stated in books specifically says not too. Another code is if an enemy is unevenly matched for you, that you are honor bound to let him flee. He is weaker then you because you have a tarn and he is on foot, he has a sword and you have a cross bow. So you should not have pity on him because the battle is not fair and just kill him, but again the quoted codes state that you are honor bound to let them flee.

The problem I found with Scarlets that RP in SL Gor, is that honor is not a concept 99% of people these days even understand. So how can they RP it out?


As we had not been similarly armed, it alone, afoot, and I with Grunt, he with an armed crossbow, and as it had not rushed upon me, I had not contested its withdrawal from the field. Such had seemed in accordance with codes to which I had once subscribed, codes which I had never forgotten.
Blood Brothers of Gor Book 18 Page 459


Few Goreans would place themselves in proximity to a stranger, if they were unarmed. That he did so suggested forcibly to me that he was relying on a warrior's honor, for a warrior will seldom attack an unarmed adversary. It is disapproved of in the codes. In this way he showed respect for my caste, and, simultaneously, if I observed the codes, as he apparently expected would be the case, he assured his own security.
Swordsmen of Gor Book 29 Page 448
Last edited by Viggo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dyce
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Dyce » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:40 am

After re-reading, you are correct about the woman being of Ko-Ro-Ba.

However, your argument of Tarl knowing all the codes, etc. and his opinion of them being what we go off of is still something I disagree with.

He was a very ignorant soul of Gorean culture and how Warriors behave throughout the cities. If I recall, Talena even remarked that he was odd for a Warrior for not having stripped her on the back of his tarn. In fact, she mocked him throughout most of the novel. Which obviously tells us that while he may know the codes, he doesn't exactly follow them as a regular Warrior would. This tells me further that his opinion of the Codes adds up to being a worthless reference.

In whatever the case, I still urge you to formulate your own opinion of the codes instead of teaching Tarl's ignorant opinion to others. It can skew the entire point of view of someone attempting to learn the role.
Viggo
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:57 am

edited above post to better reply to you ^
Dyce
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Dyce » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:15 am

Your arguments are out of context. I spoke of forces and cities, to which your earlier topic was about in regards to raids and the like.

I also said there is nothing in the codes about helping the weak. I did not say there was nothing in the codes about granting quarter and such. That is one of the first quotes of Torm teaching Tarl.

Tarl helping Ost was a matter of personal honor to which the warriors agreed, yes. However, there is no code in the novels supporting the aid of weakened individuals. However, if I'm not mistaken, that was a scenario of two men in similar predicament. They were, in a sense, comrades in arms facing a mutual enemy - the state driven by power-drunk women.

Such is a point of honor, I grant you, but there is still no code supporting that the weak must be helped.

Permitted to flee? Yes, that is granting quarter.

Not drawing a weapon against a weaker opponent? Of course, there is no honor to be gained.

However, you are referring to individual actions whilst the topic earlier was about raids and the like, which is what I pointed out in terms of war, which is a warrior's trade. But, I digress, a particular point of chivalry is, as you stated in your quotes above, a "readiness to help the weak".

There is no code to support such at all.

In fact, on the contrary, warriors will purchase what they will with steel. I believe that Tarl remarked upon that in the same novel when he met the Woodsman in the beginning. That the Woodsman was wary of Tarl because a Warrior might prey upon him there in the wilds, unarmed or not.

To equate Warriors to chivalric knights is simply incomprehensible. They are more akin to Spartan warriors with a dash of Roman legions in their mannerisms. The best modernized rendition of Warriors that I could suggest to anyone would be to watch the series "Rome HBO" and to see the differences between Lucius Vorenus, Titus Pullo, Caesar and Marc Antony. All being soldiers, some rich, others poor, some coming from noble families, others not, etc. This is more akin to the ideal Warrior from the novels, providing different personalities and different personal honors.

There are no cookie cutter Warriors. Which is why I suggest to not make use of Tarl's opinions and to simply teach the codes and allow people to make their own opinions.

Your concept of honor is not the same as mine. And mine is not the same as the next man's. Honor is subjective and situational. It is not pure and innocent. It is an opportunistic ideal to elevate onesself in the eyes of onesself or others based on similar views and like-minded ideals.

Talena remarked that, upon submission, Tarl was required to enslave or kill her. Tarl did neither. Do you consider Tarl's actions honorable? Many Warriors from the novels I wager would not, for it diminishes and devalues the institution of submission. It devalues the freedom that the woman is resigning and removes the impact of the act itself. It becomes frivolous, meaningless, nothing.

Which is why we come back to the ideas of conflict RP. Is it still possible? Absolutely. But, not with cookie-cutter ideas and only one sense of honor - in this case, specifically, yours that you pass onto students.

Teach the materials. Teach the codes. But, to try and compare it with things like chivalry and protecting the weak just destroys the core principles and produces fops who give weight and value to things that are unnecessary and have nothing to do with a Warrior's livelihood.
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Pepper
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Pepper » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:28 pm

Sasi wrote:@Leah: I think too that it's because most people don't like to have their character look bad, petty, selfish, jealous as they don't separate well their own character from their real person... Even if in the books, most FW are described as bitches, still, in SL Gor, most FW are nice kind women...


I think you're on to something here. There's also a wide belief, by both men and women, that FW are supposed to be kind and polite and demure - aka: know their place. If they want to play their FW that way, that's fine, but the idea that FW are supposed to be like that, or that's the only way they're allowed to be, is annoying.
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Pepper
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Pepper » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:30 pm

Isabella wrote:Already we get about 10 (no exaggeration) FW a day yelling in the mods IMs that we arent a RP sim becuase no-one wants to deal with their long hair and no veil ICly.


Please tell me you laugh at them. :teehee:

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