Is conflict RP still possible?

PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING!
Viggo
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:00 pm
SL Name: Saxon Rhiannyr
Caste: Scarlet
Role: Gorean Campus Teacher
Home Stone: Ar

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:34 pm

Just a side note, for Sub-Caste of Guard..

Tarl is a tarnsmen, which is not a normal infantry men. Books say tarnsmen are an elite core in the warriors, a sub-caste of Warriors. But no where is Tarl ever called a Tarnsmen, he is simply called a Warrior. Just like when you have a Scribe that is a map maker, he is called a Scribe just like the legal Scribe is called and not by his sub-caste specific training. Just because they were all called by their caste, does not mean that Sub-Castes did not exist. Like in any military people have specific jobs they do and trained at, never random day to day "Johnson, you are off Armored Calvary and doing mine sweeper today". There was Infantry, Guard, Tarnsmen, Tharlarion riders. Tarnsmen of Gor shows the training of a Scarlet, both education from Scribe and Combat training. Then after both you go to a specific job training, for Tarl it was Tarnsmen if I remember right because his father was a tarnsmen. But after tarnsmen training, no one said "ok..time for Tharlarion training, then we are off to Guardsmen training, then Wall training, and last we'll show you the patrol routes for outside the city and how to work the bell at the watch tower on the edge of our lands".

"The Goreans believe, incredibly enough, that the capacity to master a tarn is innate and that some men possess this characteristic and that some do not. One does not learn to master a tarn. It is a matter of blood and spirit, of beast and man, of a relation between two beings which must be immediate, intuitive, spontaneous. It is said that a tarn knows who is a tarnsman and who is not, and that those who are not die in this first meeting."
Tarnsman of Gor page 35
User avatar
Pepper
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:18 am
SL Name: Pepper

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Pepper » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Wasn't it different in different cities? Some guards were in the warrior caste, others weren't? Or was that just their caste colors that could be different based on different cities? Or am I remembering an onlinism?
Isabella
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:05 am
SL Name: Isabella

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Isabella » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:18 pm

Pepper wrote:
Theoden wrote:@ pepper

I have witnessed FW in our sim beat up slaves because they were naked, and there was no ooc drama. the slave even thanked her oocly for it for portraying a realistic fw.


Good to know. I haven't had a lot of rp there yet, by my own fault and lack of time, but I do have high hopes for the kind of rp I'll be getting there.



They have been debating about this.. whether it should be dealt with IC or OOC.

Right now, its not as prevalent as the visiting fw with the long hair and no veil (which if you do see definitely report and they will be asked to fix it) so it's being kept as an IC thing for people to deal with as and when.

That said, I think I will gather some evidence from the books and perhaps they can send out a notice that might encourage the players to keep an eye out for it in their roleplay.

thanks Pepper :P


OH - is it breasts too btw? or just.. lady parts? lol :shock:
Viggo
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:00 pm
SL Name: Saxon Rhiannyr
Caste: Scarlet
Role: Gorean Campus Teacher
Home Stone: Ar

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:04 pm

Pepper wrote:Wasn't it different in different cities? Some guards were in the warrior caste, others weren't? Or was that just their caste colors that could be different based on different cities? Or am I remembering an onlinism?


I have not seen Guard or police with different caste colors, when you go to place like angelfire it says they are part of some public servant caste and have no colors and those sites that say "ar Guard wear red and gold". These are onlinism, created t explain Guard because people don't want Scarlet to be Guard...Quotes that do come up about caste color, which they wear the red of the warriors.

Twice I was passed by pairs of guardsmen, in white robes with red sashes and scimitars, the police of Tor.
Tribesmen of Gor Book 10 Page 51
Viggo
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:00 pm
SL Name: Saxon Rhiannyr
Caste: Scarlet
Role: Gorean Campus Teacher
Home Stone: Ar

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:11 pm

Isabella wrote:
Pepper wrote:
Theoden wrote:@ pepper

I have witnessed FW in our sim beat up slaves because they were naked, and there was no ooc drama. the slave even thanked her oocly for it for portraying a realistic fw.


Good to know. I haven't had a lot of rp there yet, by my own fault and lack of time, but I do have high hopes for the kind of rp I'll be getting there.



They have been debating about this.. whether it should be dealt with IC or OOC.

Right now, its not as prevalent as the visiting fw with the long hair and no veil (which if you do see definitely report and they will be asked to fix it) so it's being kept as an IC thing for people to deal with as and when.

That said, I think I will gather some evidence from the books and perhaps they can send out a notice that might encourage the players to keep an eye out for it in their roleplay.

thanks Pepper :P


OH - is it breasts too btw? or just.. lady parts? lol :shock:



Wish I knew why people think having your tits out is not being naked? LOL...would love to have these women go to the store RL with their tits out and when getting arrested for public nudity, they say "oh no..no...I have pants on, I am not naked". lol

[/quote]
"Too," said I, "tie shut your tunic. Free women may soon be about. We must not scandalize them."
Guardsman of Gor Book 16 Page 168

"A free woman!" suddenly exclaimed Glyco, startled.
I smiled.
From the kitchen there had emerged, in the robes of concealment, the figure of a woman.
The men, save I, rose as one to their feet, for Gorean men commonly stand when a free woman enters a room.
The voluptuous slave of Aemilianus swiftly knelt, making herself as small as possible, putting her head to the floor. The little dark-haired slave, too, swiftly knelt, also putting her head to the floor. Too, she shuddered, trying to cover her nakedness with her hands. Peggy and Florence, too, now had their heads to the floor. Slave girls, as I may have mentioned, fear free women, terribly.
Guardsman of Gor Book 16 Page 255
[/quote]

As you can see, slaves were told to "tie up tunic" which obviously would be to cover their breasts. Also in the second quote, the slaves even when in the service of their own master went flat on the floor when the FW showed up to cover their body. unless a girl has some major camel toe, really can't see a pussy when she is standing or kneeling very easily and a hand between the thighs would quickly hide that.
User avatar
Theoden
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:20 am
SL Name: Theoden
Caste: Warrior

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Theoden » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:16 pm

Viggo wrote:

If you ever read about Greek or Roman history, you would know they were very political and always reached out to the common citizen's ideals as they were elected into office. Similar today, when politicians have to support issues the majority of the people in their voting zones support to be elected. In Greece they had public debates about politics, just randomly in the streets...Socrates did this much. In Rome everything was about politics as well, most poets would right about political policies.



Yeah. Politics. As in games and bread for the masses, while working with the elite and powerful to push through things in the senate. Not politics as in 'hey guys lets work together and brainstorm how to make our city better!' There is an inequality in the ancient times. It is not like today where politicians have to reach out to people as equals. Also, the low castes can't vote for the High Council. So that's 90% of the city that don't matter other than 'lets give them bread and games, hope they don't revolt, and work with the merchants because of their money'.

Also, I made a mistake in the earlier post, apparently it was only the warriors of the five high castes that were majority illiterate and proud of their illiteracy.

Still, seeing how low castes still make up 90% of the population, in this example, even if 4 out of 5 high castes (instead of just scribes) went to help the lower caste population and read the survey to them (which they would have no reason to, except for scribes who might do it for money, and you should also take into account that high castes detest the lower castes so its not like they'll do it pro bono), it's still 8% of the city going out of their way to go read some scrolls to the 90% low castes, whom they don't care about.

Unrealistic. Immersion Breaking.

Viggo wrote:

Guards are a sub-caste of Warrior, John Norman said so in an interview about it. Even if you did not read the interview there are tons of places, which talk about it. Yes at the end of the patrol quote it talks about them being warriors, because they are. Warrior is the Scarlet Caste, that does not mean there are not sub-castes. Tuckuk a Scarlet from the wagon people, served as a Guard in Ar. Tarl's sword brother in book 1 was hired by a merchant as a caravan Guard. The onlinism is that there is some pretend imaginary new caste called "Public Servant" which the Guards fall under and anyone can be it.



If there is an interview where he explicitly says they are a sub-caste, post it. Otherwise, I'll just write this off as one of your poor interpretations of his interview or the books.

There are just normal guards, as in, personal guards, anyone of any caste (or no caste) just paid to protect someone, and then there are guardsmen, who were warriors just doing their job. It's a synonym. There is no evidence that there is a civilian police and military separation. They are one and the same, like italian carabinieri. In that paragraph, it concluded of all warriors, and above were their job description.

Viggo wrote:

If you read the books..Rence and Peasants had Long Bows, which are very hard to pull back and would never be used as rapid fire. Scarlets used crossbows, which can never be used as rapid fire. Torvie are the only ones in book, which have the short bow, which if you read any history would tell you it was specifically made for short distance and rapid fire.

whats with all these straw men arguments? I never said anything about rencers or peasants, I'm well aware of the weapons they have, and well aware that warriors use crossbows. I'm talking about your other post in that other thread that you used the word 'only', you said 'only' torvaldslanders have rapid fire bows. And I suppose, just now as well, claiming only torvaldslanders have short bows.

thats just incorrect. tuchuks have rapid fire bows as well, tuchuk saddle bows (rebels of gor) and not to mention the short bows that various peoples in gor use. You think panthers use long bows? pulling back that huge bow with their puny arms?

Viggo wrote:

The fact that Scarlets are not held to a higher standard in Gor, is the reason you have many that run around acting like complete outlaws. The leaders of the Scarlet Caste do not require anything, just for someone to show up say they are a Scarlet and they are placed in charge of the lives of every citizen in the city. When I joined Ar or any other SIM, they just hand out tags and say "go be a scarlet" never to even talk to or set up someone. Scribes, Physicians, even slaves have to get IC training before they can take part in their RP. But for a Scarlet, it is OOC?



woah woah woah. scribes and physicians and slaves have to rp out their training? they can't just write it in their background? you sound like one of those assassins who demand rped out training and ooc groups, or kailla mahoney's PCOG. Perhaps you should make your own little ooc group and mandate rped out training..

:fryingpan:

Viggo wrote:
Have to remind you that Tarl went through Scarlet training, and in books people switched Castes. So if you have a Scribe that became a Scarlet by High Council order, you think the scribe is given a sword and scarlet cloth and said "go fight"? Same is true in SL Gor you get new Scarlets to your city (unlike BTB gor, they would be raised and live in same caste/city their entire life) and they are new to Gor, or switched castes.


Tarl is from earth. He did not live the normal life of a warrior. Thus he went through warrior training. How many times do i have to tell you this. Most warriors trained to learn how to use a sword when they were adolescents or young adults. further on, they would do drills and practice. but this is rather ridiculous you telling normal aged warriors to go train how to use swords and crossbows, when they've already known how to do it.

people switched castes, yes. very rarely. either they sucked when they were a kid at their caste work and got bumped down, or they are a woman who companions into a caste. Otherwise, there was very little caste to caste mating, its called CASTES, not professions. its not a frozen system, there is movement, but it is largely stuck. any caste changes are very exceptional, as are caste raises.

Why would a scribe be moved to the warriors by the high council? there was an incident with cernus where he moved from slaver to warrior, so he could gain power in the high council/administrator structure, but that's about it. People wouldn't move people into castes where they are incompetent in, the only reason why cernus was moved was because of corruption. but cernus is an exception. tbh, all warriors should hold a single home stone, born and raised there. home stone switching is ridiculous. if you want to play a warrior in a new city then you should make a new alt/character/background whenever you switch cities, otherwise, have a damn good ic reason, like being a mercenary. aside from the exceptional characters in the books where they came from abroad or another city, but serve in the current one, majority of goreans didn't go outside their own city much less move all the time, except merchants. Having a warrior who has a list of 5 home stones he's been a part of is ridiculous. not everyone is tarl.

caste velcro and home stone velcro for a warrior. give me a break. plus ooc codes classes and beginner level weapons training , and gate standing duty for hours. i can see how you're behind the times, and claim to be BTB. I'm still amused with you saying that torvaldslanders are the only ones with rapid fire bows, and yet you're the one accusing me of never having read a book :lol:

Viggo wrote:

Why be a Scarlet, if all you want to do is fuck in your house and wait for the raid bell? That is called a Merc, Scarlet can be part of the entire SIM's RP as they go around patrolling and doing caste work. That is the GE mentality, furring and fighting.



I don't really fuck in my house, nor have I waited for the raid bell, in the majority of the time i spend rping a warrior. but okay.

Viggo wrote:


I been in Gor a long time, and know many people want Caste work but hard to find any. An RP where citizens went to the Scribes to read them the survey and fill out answers for them would be most welcomed. Mostly FW that are scribes, and they get tired of tea house RP. The leadership in Ar are suppose to be GMs, encouraging and creature RP. It is not about your OOC ego, about what you think a Scarlet should do or not do. It was a harmless RP, which could have built a lot of interaction.



It was a ridiculous RP, which instead of clamping down on oocly, they reacted to it ICly. so you should be thankful. caste work is fine if you're into it (as long as theres no NC chores like slave exams and surveys and census' and slave registrations) .... mandated rped out caste work, is bullshit.

Viggo wrote:

..Yes Guards would go about talking and asking the people of any issues, so they can not be blind sided. That is just common sense, many times in Greece or Rome officials would have spies throughout the city bringing back rumors of what the citizens were saying or doing to keep public order. Of course Scarlets will want to be on top of any issues, even rebellion. In books the population of Ar was 1 million, and the Scarlets about 10,000 strong. If a Million people charged 10k, it won't be days before the 1% High caste are all slaughtered, it will be in a matter of hours.

why are you still going about straw men arguments? no one said there wouldn't be any reports or investigations. they just wouldn't go around sending surveys to all of rome asking for input for ideas and idea brainstorming on how the warriors could make the city safer. that is the question on the survey that was ridiculous. this is not amazon customer service.
User avatar
Theoden
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:20 am
SL Name: Theoden
Caste: Warrior

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Theoden » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:24 pm

Viggo wrote:Just a side note, for Sub-Caste of Guard..

Tarl is a tarnsmen, which is not a normal infantry men. Books say tarnsmen are an elite core in the warriors, a sub-caste of Warriors. But no where is Tarl ever called a Tarnsmen, he is simply called a Warrior. Just like when you have a Scribe that is a map maker, he is called a Scribe just like the legal Scribe is called and not by his sub-caste specific training. Just because they were all called by their caste, does not mean that Sub-Castes did not exist. Like in any military people have specific jobs they do and trained at, never random day to day "Johnson, you are off Armored Calvary and doing mine sweeper today". There was Infantry, Guard, Tarnsmen, Tharlarion riders. Tarnsmen of Gor shows the training of a Scarlet, both education from Scribe and Combat training. Then after both you go to a specific job training, for Tarl it was Tarnsmen if I remember right because his father was a tarnsmen. But after tarnsmen training, no one said "ok..time for Tharlarion training, then we are off to Guardsmen training, then Wall training, and last we'll show you the patrol routes for outside the city and how to work the bell at the watch tower on the edge of our lands".


If that is your logic, we might as well create a billion subcastes for every job each caste does. mapmaker subcaste, cartographer subcaste, researcher subcaste, engineer subcaste...

why would there be guardsmen training? do you really need to be trained to stand at a gate or patrol? no. if the national guard comes into ferguson, do they stop and say 'wait, we didn't get trained how to enforce law and order and patrol and stuff!' no. the commander just tells them to do that stuff. they have a gun. they're told what to do. they do it. same with a sword and warriors. their martial skill is all they need.
User avatar
Sasi
Posts: 710
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:16 am
SL Name: Sasi

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Sasi » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:43 pm

Viggo wrote:
If you ever read about Greek or Roman history, you would know they were very political and always reached out to the common citizen's ideals as they were elected into office. Similar today, when politicians have to support issues the majority of the people in their voting zones support to be elected. In Greece they had public debates about politics, just randomly in the streets...Socrates did this much. In Rome everything was about politics as well, most poets would right about political policies.



Theo never said that that warriors couldn't be very political. He underlined how ridiculous it was for a Gorean warrior to, I cite "reach out to citizens on their ideas on how to make Ar safer"

How to make a city safe, how to define a strategy for this purpose is a warrior's skill, duty, responsibility and relying on the average citizen for such question is deeply ridiculous. Would the peasant ask a warrior to give him ideas on how to plow his field? Seriously, Viggo, good sense applies, there. Damn, if I were a Gorean folk, I would freak out and feel deeply insecure, if I were asked by a warrior to toss ideas on a survey to make my city safer...

Also, regarding warriors and their literate skills:

"It was not regarded as dignified for a warrior to be too expert with letters, such being a task beneath warriors. To have a scribe's skills would tend to embarrass a man of arms, and tend to lower his prestige among his peers. Many of the north, then, were rather proud of their illiteracy, or semi-illiteracy. It was expected of them. It honored them. His tools were not the pen and parchment, but the sword, the bow, the ax and spear." --Marauders of Gor, page 243


Viggo wrote:The fact that Scarlets are not held to a higher standard in Gor, is the reason you have many that run around acting like complete outlaws. The leaders of the Scarlet Caste do not require anything, just for someone to show up say they are a Scarlet and they are placed in charge of the lives of every citizen in the city. When I joined Ar or any other SIM, they just hand out tags and say "go be a scarlet" never to even talk to or set up someone. Scribes, Physicians, even slaves have to get IC training before they can take part in their RP. But for a Scarlet, it is OOC? Have to remind you that Tarl went through Scarlet training, and in books people switched Castes. So if you have a Scribe that became a Scarlet by High Council order, you think the scribe is given a sword and scarlet cloth and said "go fight"? Same is true in SL Gor you get new Scarlets to your city (unlike BTB gor, they would be raised and live in same caste/city their entire life) and they are new to Gor, or switched castes.

Why be a Scarlet, if all you want to do is fuck in your house and wait for the raid bell? That is called a Merc, Scarlet can be part of the entire SIM's RP as they go around patrolling and doing caste work. That is the GE mentality, furring and fighting.


You are just furiously mixing IC and OOC, there. It is unrealistic to organize an IC training regarding weapons and codes for full adult red caste characters. It doesn't make sense, as warriors are familiarized and taught the codes as soon as they start their weapon training, (end of their childhood, probably) and have to prove their worth. Scribes and physicians are taught their caste skills as well in their young age, not when fully adult. People playing a scribe, a warrior, a physician, should always have this training as part of their background, since we are required to play our character as 18' minimum.
Also, Tarl was already adult when he had been brought in Gor, you cannot use him as a example.

The example of the scribe becoming a warrior is irrelevant, too. It would be incredibly exceptional, and so, not justifying the organization of IC training for the whole army of your SL Gor sim. A man wanting to raise caste would get the training in finding a tutor who would train him, teach him the codes and support his accession to the caste. There is no way that a red caste in a city would happily welcome every man wanting not of the caste wanting to join it and organize trainings for these people. Goreans are very protectionists with their caste. Compromise as much as you want, but in this case, stop saying you are BTB.

You speak of the warrior outlaw type? Annoying. But I have the same issue with the white knight warrior, in love with his FC to whom he is so loyal that he will never even glance at a slave's ass in a tavern. Anyway, in SL Gor, men are prompt to discipline slaves but are too puritan to fuck them.

People playing their role like shit are many, in SL Gor. They need to read the books and make a few searches by themselves (I am hostile to most SL-Gor classes).

Regarding caste work, we had had already such discussion. If you get fun by yourself emoting caste work in your corner, go for it. Personally, I like playing with warriors able to write stories, engage in intrigues while NPC guards watch the gates. I am perfectly fine with people having most of their caste work as part of their background, emoting about it, same I expect slaves doing the same with their chores they should NPC/FTB to focus on more interesting interactions.
User avatar
Anarch Allegiere
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 am
SL Name: Anarch Allegiere

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:46 pm

The (sub)caste of guardsmen is a very old discussion I had many years ago already, and had many more times over the years with various men who were very indulged into getting to understand and learn more about the Caste of Warriors.

Besides references to a (sub-)Caste of guards on shadey old websites there is no mention of it in the books. Instead, from reading a few of the later books it seems to me rather that Warriors were appointed with various tasks of guarding and security when they were not sent out to fight in war and battles, etc. There is one part in the books somewhere, and I've tried to search for it quite vigorously the past hour, that very specifically mentions how there were few guards in the city, how crime was on the rise, because almost all the Warriors had been sent out to fight in a War.

The books are very vague about these things, on one hand they describe the carefree existance of tarnsmen that did nothing but plunder and pillage across the gorean countryside all day and then got drunk and spent all their loot on slave-girls and paga in the evening, and on the other hand they describe rigorous discipline and unforgiving guards that assisted the Magistrates and Praetors with enforcing the law. I would suppose that guardwork 'might' be like mercenary work, a voluntary thing to earn extra coin or something.

As long as the books don't specifically mention a (sub)caste of guards it's only speculation and interpretation, but I'm inclined to say that being a city-guard (to the Magistrate) was a (possibly voluntary) job for Warriors when they weren't out to fight in battles.
User avatar
Pepper
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:18 am
SL Name: Pepper

Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Pepper » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:02 pm

Isabella wrote:
Pepper wrote:
Theoden wrote:@ pepper

I have witnessed FW in our sim beat up slaves because they were naked, and there was no ooc drama. the slave even thanked her oocly for it for portraying a realistic fw.


Good to know. I haven't had a lot of rp there yet, by my own fault and lack of time, but I do have high hopes for the kind of rp I'll be getting there.



They have been debating about this.. whether it should be dealt with IC or OOC.

Right now, its not as prevalent as the visiting fw with the long hair and no veil (which if you do see definitely report and they will be asked to fix it) so it's being kept as an IC thing for people to deal with as and when.

That said, I think I will gather some evidence from the books and perhaps they can send out a notice that might encourage the players to keep an eye out for it in their roleplay.

thanks Pepper :P


OH - is it breasts too btw? or just.. lady parts? lol :shock:


Oh yes, breasts too. Maybe you could get away with saying nipples and vag, if "cover your breasts" is too much. For example; cleavage would be okay. Full breast exposure wouldn't be okay. My FW would scoff at either, of course. ;)

My input would be to put any OOC rule about it in your dress code and let the rest work itself out in rp. The only problem with a "no nudity" rule would be that it takes away the chance to play a slave being punished by being nude around FW. And the problem with that is that most slave rpers don't see nudity as a bad thing, so they don't really take it as a punishment. I don't know how you fix that or if you even can.

Return to “Debate It.”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron