Is conflict RP still possible?

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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:38 pm

Pepper wrote:
Isabella wrote:Already we get about 10 (no exaggeration) FW a day yelling in the mods IMs that we arent a RP sim becuase no-one wants to deal with their long hair and no veil ICly.


Please tell me you laugh at them. :teehee:


To make things worse yesterday night in a BtB 'admins and moderator' group various people started to call out sims that didn't allow unveiled FW as 'not by the books'. I think it's a pretty hopeless state of affairs, 90% of BtB sims out there don't have a clue what they're doing.
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby JackoS » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:42 pm

Dyce. You are right, there are no quotes indicating Warriors are there to protect the weak. Though there are no quotes specifically indicating otherwise. However a few things might help us understand what would go through a Gorean head. Though as mentioned no quotes in one or the other direction, certainly there is plenty of quotes indicating that in Gor, it is survival of the strongest. This seems to suggest, that there is no place in Gor for the weak. If that is the case, then why would somebody protect a weakling?

Also, I remember a discussion (not here) of why slaves were given slavewine and in general not allowed to breed. And the reason they gave (though again no supporting evidence in the books, but one has to wonder why the hell then did JN put this here) was that kajirae came from, usually defeated cities, that is, weak people and races. Hence, by not allowing them to breed, you eliminate those genes from the gorean gene pool, strengthening the gorean race overall (following the mandate of survival of the strongest).

Quarter, mercy, that is understandable (a warrior could easily say "I am showing mercy to you, I am simply enslaving you and not killing you" or "I give you a quick death, not a slow one").

Now something you mentioned got my attention, and I think also points out to the confusión about honor, mercy and the relationship of warriors and the codes. Yes, Tarl should have killed or collared Talena. Was his behaviour good or bad? Was it within his codes, was it dishonorable? Again no quote supporting it, except that Marlenus (who we can´t say he is not gorean nor he doesn´t understand the codes), was grateful for that, and not only showed him mercy, but gave him an opportunity to escape and live, despite Tarl having stolen the homestone of Ar and being the cause of his downfall. And all for just sparing his daughter´s live and honor by keeping her free and not killing her.
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby JackoS » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:47 pm

Anarch Allegiere wrote:
Pepper wrote:
Isabella wrote:Already we get about 10 (no exaggeration) FW a day yelling in the mods IMs that we arent a RP sim becuase no-one wants to deal with their long hair and no veil ICly.


Please tell me you laugh at them. :teehee:


To make things worse yesterday night in a BtB 'admins and moderator' group various people started to call out sims that didn't allow unveiled FW as 'not by the books'. I think it's a pretty hopeless state of affairs, 90% of BtB sims out there don't have a clue what they're doing.


Anarch, I agree with you that most Sims have no idea what is BTB. Veils actually are not a requirement across gor. Maybe some cities require them by law, though haven´t seen that in the books (not that I remember). The only part of the female body that it seems to be punishable to show by law (and hence a collareable offence) is the ankles (the quote i remember is in Mercenaries). Guess John Norman has a fetish with feet and ankles. For the rest of the body, haven´t seen any law enforcing.

However, in most cities (though not outside the cities) women wear veils as a matter of modesty and manners. Just as today on earth you are asked to wear a shirt when entering a restaurant, and not go with your torso naked.

Again maybe some cities have laws against women being unveiled, but clearly it is not an across the land issue. Just as couching law, so far I have found that only Ar has it (as per the books), but it seem everybody from the wagon people to torvaldsland, seem to believe it is everywhere.
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Theoden
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Theoden » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:13 pm

Viggo wrote:I really don't care what theo says, he is a know it all that likes to insult people's RP because it is not some thing he would do. Lots of quotes that support Scarlet as being Guards, he don't think they should be so insults people that play Guardsmen. He don't think there should be IC training, so he insults everyone that thinks it is a good idea. He does not agree with an RP someone does, he insults their RP and belittles them as players. Not sure why you care about what someone like that thinks, as obviously they have no respect for anyone but themselves.

So you ran out of straw men and are going for twisting arguments, now?
You are such a riot. I like you. :D :D :D

I never said anything against 'Scarlet as being guards' or 'insults people that play Guardsmen'. I'm fine with warriors playing a 'job' as a guard, and guarding and patrolling is one of the duties that warriors can do (emphasis on can).

What I am against, is you inventing a sub-caste out of thin air. It is probably because you keep reading things out of context, or you desperately want to make warriors into SuperTroopers police that you interpret them as wildly as you can to get your way.

Viggo wrote:To the topic of the IC training; the point is that people are IC warriors because they walked up and said "I'm a Warrior". BTB this is 100% true, once a child of a Scarlet male shoots out his mother's twat, he is a Warrior. This does not mean he knows anything about being a Warrior, and since none of us RPed childhoods everything we know ICly has to be gained ICly as that is RP 101. Does not matter what your background is, if you go to any other RP SIM in SL and say "I am a grand master wizard for the millionth order!", they will say "um..no..you just got here, so you a novice and have to learn your spells". Then you might reply "But my backstory says _______!", and they will respond "Good for you, you godmoded your backstory to come in as a semi-god character...yeah..no, not going to work".

Anyone that has evolved in RP to a certain point knows that certain knowledge as long as they are not godmodded against a player, is fine to be 'known' as a background. Not everything needs to be learned IC. You don't need to RP out an adolescence learning the training. You just create a character, write a background, and do the research on the character and role.

If a background is too crazy or all powerful, the admins step in and say you must change your background or not rp in this sim.

Tell me, did anyone teach you IC how to take a shit? Did you rp out your mother potty training you?

Viggo wrote:
Everyone wants to come to Gor as some Master awesome super star day one, and it is not good RP and it is not good fun for those that have put the years into SL Gor. In any case, I teach at Gorean Campus the Scarlet Codes course. I have Ubars, commanders, and veterans from every BTB sim there saying it is a great thing. I am fine if Theo thinks it is wrong or whatever, but his one opinion does not trump the opinion of my 50 students that today will be going to their 4th class that think it is great. ;tybow:
Oh nice. Do they get a certificate too, a lil picture file diploma that they can display in their profile? Does it have a QC smartphone code too, like I've seen on some slave certificates from Haifa? :D :D :D

If people are too lazy to research their character, I would be fine with VOLUNTARY , OOC, courses where you can go and learn someone's interpretation of the role. However, the instructor, must know what he is talking about, and not read things out of context. Unlike you. It seems like a general theme is that you like to bring up Tarl cabot a lot, even though he is the exception and not the rule, as Dyce pointed out.


Viggo wrote:Theo,

I made it clear, I was talking about average Gorean that RPed in the cities. Yes Kur have rapid fire weapons, yes outlaws can, yes panthers, and red savages, and pirates. But that was not the content of the topic. It was in general raid/combat conditions at a BTB sim, and I don't need to win arguments like you seem obsessed with. I give my opinion based on what I have read, and people can take from it what they will.



You can backtrack and change your previous argument and intentions all you like (with the help of my quotes that I provided) but the fact is you stated incorrect facts and I corrected you on them.

Viggo wrote:..just fyi...Like I said in that forum, BTB if you go to a city you are not apart of you are usually put on a pike unless perhaps if you are a merchant or slaver. So to say they would not only allow an enemy scarlet/outlaw/torvie/panther into their city but armed to the teeth without being escorted..well in your own words "that is ridiculous".

:shh:


Wait, is that a straw man again? Where do you get all this straw?

When did I ever say people would allow those types of people into their city armed without an escort?

The enemy warrior would be escorted, though I doubt he would be disarmed, if he was sent as an emissary.

The outlaw would be slain.

The torvaldslander would be let through (though would be a curiosity amongst the locals, because this would be extremely rare, and he would still viewed suspiciously, as he was a foreigner, but he wouldn't be disarmed as well. He would be questioned though, and let through if he had good reasons to go into the city. Perhaps he is a mercenary in the hire of a citizen.

And the panther... would just be collared, if for some reason realism was just thrown out the window and the panther decided to go visit the city gates for some reason, taking into account geography as well....



Viggo wrote:The fact you need to prove every point wrong of every single person that you disagree with on a forum, shows you need to step away and get a RL lol...really feel bad for you.


I actually don't point every wrong of every single person I disagree with on this forum. I mostly ignore people and move on.

And well, I actually left you alone for quite a long while... until you started beating the drum that warriors in SL sucked and that you were a shining example to us all. Then we asked what it is that made the warriors a poorly rped role, and you gave us these as recommendations:

1. mandating IC codes classes (supposedly ic but ridiculous to play out ic so really are ooc, since grown warrior men already knew the codes)

2. mandating RPed out army wide ic training of basic things like learning how to use swords, to grown warrior men who already knew this since adolescence

3. mandating RP'ed out gate duty to stand for hours in SL instead of FTB it, akin to NC chores and rping by yourself, which is fine if you wish to do it, but bullshit if you're gonna mandate it

4. mandating RP'ed out patrolling duty rp, which is fine if you want to do it, but bullshit if you're gonna mandate it and criticize anyone that doesn't want to rp it out

5. insisting there is a sub-caste of Guardsmen, despite continued lack of evidence. where is that interview where you say Jon Norman explicitly stated there is a sub-caste of guardsmen? I still have yet to see it.

6. insisting everything you learn must be learned IC, refusing character background creation as a valid means of having a certain knowledge of something like training

7. calling ridiculous RP, good rp, like sending out a written survey to the entire city asking the population to brainstorm ideas with the warriors on how to make the city safer, never mind that the majority of the city 90% don't know how to read, and this would never be done in Rome or any greek city, and there just isn't enough literate people to go read the survey to the illiterate people, even if they wanted to (which they wouldn't, because high castes detest the low castes, and would only do it for money)

8. anything else i didn't include but anyone could probably find here and there reading your posts



You can't beat your chest saying all the warriors are doing it wrong, and you're doing it right, and then list ridiculous things that they should be doing and not be an object of ridicule.

Everything you write, is like you came out of a 2009 noob sim. So forgive me having fun mocking you.
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:53 pm

Dyce,

I was not talking about war and raids, I was talking personal conduct of Scarlets when they are out and about the wilds of Gor. Yes in war and raids, things are a lot different I would agree.

In regards to Tarl though, he is not a real person. He is the main character of a novel, who John Norman wrote to explain to us what it means to be gorean and a Scarlet. Most every Code quote and knowledge we have about being Gorean, is given by Tarl during his adventures. He does take an Earth aspect to many things, but if you read the internal struggles of Tarl given as a narrative, he does give his personal opinion and then he tells us what a Gorean would do. The example of him becoming a slave you brought up, he said in Marauders of Gor that he chose slavery for his personal choice but the codes say he should not have.

I would also disagree Warriors are not there to protect the weak, the Free Woman that offers you sweets as you patrol past the bakery every morning looks to you with pride and confidence, knowing 'this is a Scarlet of my Home Stone who will die to protect me from outlaws and raiders'. Books talk about warriors are not just swordsmen, they stand above as honor men held to a code. If the Scarlets are not there to protect the weak, what is their purpose defending the walls of their city? Personal pride? "oh I'm so super awesome, I killed a raider..my score is 33 kills now, woot!" A woman of your home stone comes up to you after "oh thank you brave Warrior, for protecting us!" and your reply will be slapping her across the face "..don't think so highly of yourself slut, I didn't do it for you or any of the weakling non Scarlets here..they could rape you 20 times until the day is over...I did it for my awesomeness!" ...sorry..I have to disagree with that line of thinking.
JackoS
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby JackoS » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:18 pm

Viggo

The warrior is there to protect his homestone. Certainly he will kill anybody trying to attack or damage it, including its citizens. But understand this, he will never protect a free woman who courts the collar, he will never protect a free woman who chooses a collar over death. It is simple, he will protect the homestone, to whom his sword, honor and life is pledged.
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Pepper
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Pepper » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:09 pm

JackoS wrote:Anarch, I agree with you that most Sims have no idea what is BTB. Veils actually are not a requirement across gor. Maybe some cities require them by law, though haven´t seen that in the books (not that I remember). The only part of the female body that it seems to be punishable to show by law (and hence a collareable offence) is the ankles (the quote i remember is in Mercenaries). Guess John Norman has a fetish with feet and ankles. For the rest of the body, haven´t seen any law enforcing.

However, in most cities (though not outside the cities) women wear veils as a matter of modesty and manners. Just as today on earth you are asked to wear a shirt when entering a restaurant, and not go with your torso naked.

Again maybe some cities have laws against women being unveiled, but clearly it is not an across the land issue. Just as couching law, so far I have found that only Ar has it (as per the books), but it seem everybody from the wagon people to torvaldsland, seem to believe it is everywhere.


This is much like the previous short conversation about nude slaves in the city. There's a mindset that should be in Gorean roleplay that isn't. A slave shouldn't, generally, enjoy being naked around everyone and should, generally, be afraid of Free Women and what they can do to them. A Free Woman should, generally, want to cover her face in a city full of men, especially if she doesn't live there. There's always an exception to both rules. If a slave is being punished, she may be naked in the city. If she's newly collared or for sale, she may be naked in the city. If a FW is low caste and tired of being poor, she may go unveiled in the city in the hopes of attracting a handsome warrior to be her Master, or a slaver who would sell her into a nice home. But the problem is that those mindsets are largely absent from Gorean RPers, which in essence leaves it up to Sim Admins to tell them that they can't come into the city unless their veiled. Otherwise you have a city full of unveiled women and a bunch of men tired of having to RP making a woman cover her face day in and day out.

Also, though they aren't required across Gor, they are a way of life in much of Gor. It doesn't make sense for a Torvie woman to go South then bitch at the gate guards for making her wear a veil. Again, another mindset that's largely absent in Gorean RPers.
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Sasi
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Sasi » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:23 pm

Viggo wrote:
To the topic of the IC training; the point is that people are IC warriors because they walked up and said "I'm a Warrior". BTB this is 100% true, once a child of a Scarlet male shoots out his mother's twat, he is a Warrior. This does not mean he knows anything about being a Warrior, and since none of us RPed childhoods everything we know ICly has to be gained ICly as that is RP 101. Does not matter what your background is, if you go to any other RP SIM in SL and say "I am a grand master wizard for the millionth order!", they will say "um..no..you just got here, so you a novice and have to learn your spells". Then you might reply "But my backstory says _______!", and they will respond "Good for you, you godmoded your backstory to come in as a semi-god character...yeah..no, not going to work".

Everyone wants to come to Gor as some Master awesome super star day one, and it is not good RP and it is not good fun for those that have put the years into SL Gor. In any case, I teach at Gorean Campus the Scarlet Codes course. I have Ubars, commanders, and veterans from every BTB sim there saying it is a great thing. I am fine if Theo thinks it is wrong or whatever, but his one opinion does not trump the opinion of my 50 students that today will be going to their 4th class that think it is great. ;tybow:



Seriously, could you please, stop mixing IC and OOC? Someone picking the role of an adult warrior, is IC a warrior, period, He is considered having in his background YEARS of training.

It's totally unrealistic to want to have IC classes for such characters, and teach them the codes. Not plausible. If the character needed still to know the codes, once adult, he would have been kicked off the red caste by his teachers before being accepted as warrior. If he RP a warrior, you must consider -ICly- that he got his training and filled its requirements.

The fact that the typist plays his role like crap is a different matter and so, must be dealt OOCly.

RPers need to be taught their role OOCly. Adult characters are considered having filled their caste requirements for years, until they reach their adulthood.

As for Gorean Campus... It's a joke, all these schools are a joke.. One of the teachers, from GC, a woman, who, despite the obvious OOC environment of this place, behaves ICly, should know, so, that ponytails are for slaves and that in books, FW are never appointed magistrate (not to mention that on her profile pic, her veil is sheer). Oh, and you have to ask her permission to use her pleasure slave girl... Yeah, the typical Gorean FW, indeed and such a good ad for her school.... The lame ubars and other idiots who hang out in 99% of crap old School Gor sims are really not a reference that will impress me.

But as I say always, compromise as much as you want, but at least, stop claiming you're BTB.

Oh, on a side note, Theoden is one of the few guy who RP a high ranked warrior as they are portrayed in the books, and, too, a RPer capable to differentiate IC from OOC.
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby Viggo » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:25 pm

Sasi wrote:
Viggo wrote:
To the topic of the IC training; the point is that people are IC warriors because they walked up and said "I'm a Warrior". BTB this is 100% true, once a child of a Scarlet male shoots out his mother's twat, he is a Warrior. This does not mean he knows anything about being a Warrior, and since none of us RPed childhoods everything we know ICly has to be gained ICly as that is RP 101. Does not matter what your background is, if you go to any other RP SIM in SL and say "I am a grand master wizard for the millionth order!", they will say "um..no..you just got here, so you a novice and have to learn your spells". Then you might reply "But my backstory says _______!", and they will respond "Good for you, you godmoded your backstory to come in as a semi-god character...yeah..no, not going to work".

Everyone wants to come to Gor as some Master awesome super star day one, and it is not good RP and it is not good fun for those that have put the years into SL Gor. In any case, I teach at Gorean Campus the Scarlet Codes course. I have Ubars, commanders, and veterans from every BTB sim there saying it is a great thing. I am fine if Theo thinks it is wrong or whatever, but his one opinion does not trump the opinion of my 50 students that today will be going to their 4th class that think it is great. ;tybow:



Seriously, could you please, stop mixing IC and OOC? Someone picking the role of an adult warrior, is IC a warrior, period, He is considered having in his background YEARS of training.

It's totally unrealistic to want to have IC classes for such characters, and teach them the codes. Not plausible. If the character needed still to know the codes, once adult, he would have been kicked off the red caste by his teachers before being accepted as warrior. If he RP a warrior, you must consider -ICly- that he got his training and filled its requirements.

The fact that the typist plays his role like crap is a different matter and so, must be dealt OOCly.

RPers need to be taught their role OOCly. Adult characters are considered having filled their caste requirements for years, until they reach their adulthood.

As for Gorean Campus... It's a joke, all these schools are a joke.. One of the teachers, from GC, a woman, who, despite the obvious OOC environment of this place, behaves ICly, should know, so, that ponytails are for slaves and that in books, FW are never appointed magistrate (not to mention that on her profile pic, her veil is sheer). Oh, and you have to ask her permission to use her pleasure slave girl... Yeah, the typical Gorean FW, indeed and such a good ad for her school.... The lame ubars and other idiots who hang out in 99% of crap old School Gor sims are really not a reference that will impress me.

But as I say always, compromise as much as you want, but at least, stop claiming you're BTB.

Oh, on a side note, Theoden is one of the few guy who RP a high ranked warrior as they are portrayed in the books, and, too, a RPer capable to differentiate IC from OOC.


Ok...I know you are defending theo, and that is cute..not a place in a debate to protect friends and saying what they want you to say.

But let us look at this logically: Do you RP a FW or Slave?

If FW; you BTB should not be doing any caste work, you should not leave your house without escort of a male family member unless you can afford a Guard. You have to spend your entire RP in your house, doing basically "house wife" rp for your companion or future companion.

If slave; you are not allowed around the city, unless you have a specific chore to do for your owner. You can't be naked running around, and not allowed to fur every guy that looks sexy. You have to remain in you your house doing IC chores your entire time you are logged on, unless your owner is around. Even when your owner is around, in books they did not lead their slaves around the city every where they went on leashes. You would still be left at the house, doing chores. Unless you are a tavern slave or Inn Slave, then you would serve in there and never leave, never go hang out with slave friends. You would do chores all day, until a free comes in and you do serves all day as your own Rp.

..if either of these sounds fun to be 100% BTB, please RP that way. But for the rest of us, that want a more developed game play we have to take into account this is a game and SL so have to make appropriate adjustments to have fun and interesting story lines.
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Re: Is conflict RP still possible?

Postby JackoS » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:39 pm

Pepper wrote:
JackoS wrote:Anarch, I agree with you that most Sims have no idea what is BTB. Veils actually are not a requirement across gor. Maybe some cities require them by law, though haven´t seen that in the books (not that I remember). The only part of the female body that it seems to be punishable to show by law (and hence a collareable offence) is the ankles (the quote i remember is in Mercenaries). Guess John Norman has a fetish with feet and ankles. For the rest of the body, haven´t seen any law enforcing.

However, in most cities (though not outside the cities) women wear veils as a matter of modesty and manners. Just as today on earth you are asked to wear a shirt when entering a restaurant, and not go with your torso naked.

Again maybe some cities have laws against women being unveiled, but clearly it is not an across the land issue. Just as couching law, so far I have found that only Ar has it (as per the books), but it seem everybody from the wagon people to torvaldsland, seem to believe it is everywhere.


This is much like the previous short conversation about nude slaves in the city. There's a mindset that should be in Gorean roleplay that isn't. A slave shouldn't, generally, enjoy being naked around everyone and should, generally, be afraid of Free Women and what they can do to them. A Free Woman should, generally, want to cover her face in a city full of men, especially if she doesn't live there. There's always an exception to both rules. If a slave is being punished, she may be naked in the city. If she's newly collared or for sale, she may be naked in the city. If a FW is low caste and tired of being poor, she may go unveiled in the city in the hopes of attracting a handsome warrior to be her Master, or a slaver who would sell her into a nice home. But the problem is that those mindsets are largely absent from Gorean RPers, which in essence leaves it up to Sim Admins to tell them that they can't come into the city unless their veiled. Otherwise you have a city full of unveiled women and a bunch of men tired of having to RP making a woman cover her face day in and day out.

Also, though they aren't required across Gor, they are a way of life in much of Gor. It doesn't make sense for a Torvie woman to go South then bitch at the gate guards for making her wear a veil. Again, another mindset that's largely absent in Gorean RPers.


Pepper, I agree that the mindset is very important. Many in SL Gor roleplay without putting themselves in the place of a gorean. The example of veils is a very good one. Either

1. FW understand that the wearing of veils, though not a legal requirement, was something most FW did out of modesty, to show that they were educated, of high station (or trying to mimic someone of high station he same way middle classes have always aped the ways of upper classes) or simply so nobody would take them for a slave; or
2. They are enforced through ooc rules.

If not we end up with a lot of unveiled women. The same with women carrying swords, slaves that are naked, free men disrespecting FW, etc... The problem is, most roleplayers don´t seem to want to get into the mindset, they just wanna spend some lindens onto a nice, pleasing avatar and to go and roleplay as easily and quick as possible, whatever character they choose to.

My previous post, where i supported Anarch was simply to try to support Anarch by stating that purely by the books, no women were not required by law to wear veils (maybe in some city, but certainly doesn´t come out from puré quotes that there was such a law). However, I guess that if a FW of high station would show herself in public unveiled, she would be regarded as a whore by her peers, and such a faux pass would be really one of those social sins that simply get you out of all your social circles. And social life in Gor i guess is very important, as it was in the past on Earth probably.

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