Traffic and you

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Does traffic effect your decision on playing at a sim?

Yes, I look for places to play based on highest traffic.
10
13%
Yes, I look for places to play based on highest traffic.
10
13%
No, I look for a city or theme I'm interested in and try playing in that sim.
23
29%
No, I look for a city or theme I'm interested in and try playing in that sim.
23
29%
Other(please explain)
6
8%
Other(please explain)
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78
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Theoden
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:24 am

Glaucon wrote:
Kaitlin wrote:Theoden doesn't have to convince me of anything. We are actually in agreement on the small likelihood that those attracted by a new meter would evolve into the type of roleplayers that Gor needs to actually RP on a sim rather than just add to the avatar count. Or did you skip over that too in your reading?


We clearly read something very different. You read Théoden's posts as him cheerleading you. I read him as actually getting the stuff I and others were talking about (as opposed to yourself). And him not wanting to antagonize you by openly disagreeing with you (same as Anarch, really) because he can tell how you'd react (you don't take disagreement very well). I actually read what he typed. He did mention that the 'trickle down' of RP-ers from more game-like Gor environments would be slow. And of course, it would not happen for everyone, though it did for quite a few people posting here (perhaps most) and playing in the sort of para RP sims you like playing in, including the non-gorean ones. Maybe I am really blind, but it seems pretty clear to me he was agreeing with that, not dissenting.

Not that I expect him to back me up on that. And I don't mind him not doing that. Some people are wiser than I am. They know it is not worth it. :thumbup:




I pointed out the fact that the trickle up was slow, and later down in the post, i mentioned that there was a few who would trickle up. So technically Kaitlin is right in that we both agree on the fact of relative scarcity of the trickle up effect.

However, there's a subtle but important difference and nuance.
I mentioned the 'few' positively, that there ARE a few men we could cultivate, that people WILL benefit from a better meter. She regarded the 'few', what she renamed 'a handful' negatively, that it didn't matter. Glass half full = me, glass half empty = kaitlin.

My main point however was that it would be way better to just leech good quality traffic from other genres, rather than doing the trickle up effect.

Thus my point was to acknowledge the positive ramifications of a new meter but also note the limitations, while pointing to a better method of accomplishing a goal.

The issue was whether or not a new meter would be good for quality traffic, yes?

Kaitlin and I may have agreed on the same 'fact' of a scarcity of candidates for the trickle up effect, but my view on the benefits of a new meter (should it become successful) is relatively positive whilst pointing toward an even better alternative method, and her view on the benefits was negative and dismissive.
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Glaucon
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Glaucon » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:56 am

@ Théoden: Yeah. I understood. Was posting something with the old half-empty half-full metaphor myself, trying to explain it, but I figured she would just deny it anyway, coming from me. So, decided not to bother. :)

But taking up what you were talking about, the 'learning curve':

Perhaps not for everyone but generally, people need to have paid attention in middle school and high school in English class to grasp grammar, sentence structure, vocabulary, and have had practice in creative thinking. All this takes years to develop generally.


Depends on what you want, really. If you want basic one-lining, people need to speak a little English (although the translator will do in a pinch), need to be at least slightly below average in intelligence, need to have been taught and understood the most basic of the basics.

Anyone that isn't very stupid or doesn't speak English at all can learn this. Most 'gamers' could, if they wanted.

If you want half-decent semi-para, they need a lot more. The translator won't do, really. They need to be able to speak English and be able to at least read and understand complex sentences. They need to understand the basics of RP fairly well, probably need to be above average in intelligence, and some creativity is also desirable.

An intelligent person with a decent command of the language and a fair general education can learn this fairly quickly, the RP-stuff and the essentials of the lore being the hardest (IC, OOC, no metagaming, etc. and for Gor, the lore relating to the theme.) All fairly smart people with an open mind can become good semi-para RP-ers. That includes all smart 'gamers' that speak English.

The same minimum requirements apply for full para-RP, except that people need to be able to write long posts. And if those are going to have to be any good, and not just meaningless babble, or memorized para-fluffing, that rules out most non-native speakers. It rules out many without a flair for writing. It rules out a lot of 'silent types', and people without an ever-flowing well of at least semi-creative writing inside their heads.

Some people have that talent, and have learned to use it long before. Many para-RP-ers report having some 'amateur-writing experience' or background. I suppose it can be learned, but I am not sure if people can really learn to do this stuff well in just a couple of years, after the formative teenage/adolescent years. For many that come to this sort of writing late, it will always be a major effort, though some may have had no experience, but discover that they just had the talent already. It can't really be learned within a reasonable time-frame within SL, unless someone already had the skill (and required patience for it) already. Para-RP will always be a niche thing, because most people don't have the right screw loose for it. Probably less than 5% of the population of an English-speaking country would have the right combination of skills and personality to be able to para-RP and enjoy it, I'd guestimate.

So, effectively, the skill cannot be learned (or maybe only by a few). But some 'gamers' just happen to also be the sort that tried to write books when they were teenagers, or short stories, etc. Those play games and stuff too. So, if someone already has that skill, is 'wordy' enough, etc, they can still 'evolve' from a 'gamer' to a para-RPing player.
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Cassie
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Cassie » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:05 am

Glaucon: Either you like written roleplay or you don't!
I was introduced to my first example of written text rp in a Vampire The Masquerade chat several years ago and came from the more immediate table Vampire game.
The result was horrible. Not only the brought me over without being overly descriptive of what I was supposed to know but thre me in a situation and expected a certain type of description of me.
The Game Master wrote a descriptive and detailed situation to me of about 20 lines and I went :hiding:
Seeing other people reply with even more lines of their inner feelings without any actions made me puke and well it's taste. I didn't like it. Probably Gor back then would have not worked for me.

What works for me is what I get in return, when I see a situation where others enjoy themselves I am attracted to follow and try it out. SL Gor stuck to me yes... but even though I know several of friends who have a higher written and oral capacity I am sure the Gorean genre is not for them. Clique of a clique of a clique... the more something becomes elite... closed... the harder it becomes to attract people.

Gor's only true weapon is making people think we are a Sex Club. Make people come for the boobs and cock and hope they stay for the stories.
Godless heathens always waltz on the sky.
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Glaucon
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Glaucon » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:17 am

Cassie wrote:Glaucon: Either you like written roleplay or you don't!


Oh, true. But there is written role-play, and there is written role-play. I suppose all of us here like written RP in the broad sense. And I like it enough not to mind para-ing away some. Though the long form is not my preference.

but even though I know several of friends who have a higher written and oral capacity I am sure the Gorean genre is not for them. Clique of a clique of a clique... the more something becomes elite... closed... the harder it becomes to attract people.


Traditionally, SL Gor has not been inhabited by para-RPer. There were quite a few among the people coming in from text-only Gor, but some of those dropped out of para-mode, and they were soon outnumbered by non-para-RP-ers. And I cannot remember anyone insisting on para as a requirement in the old days. I think the para-RP thing in Gor actually made a bit of a come-back through the influence of off-Gor RP sims. They also brought over a bit more of a 'militant' para-RP attitude from those sims. Para or the highway.

But I think it was proven through some sims that para-RP CAN work within SL Gor. But it does seem that it needs to be paired with a degree of self-chosen seclusion. And it is not consistent. Because it appears that these para-only players still go to the Gor Hub, concern themselves with non-para sims, feel they are part of a greater community. That is different from most non-Gor para sims.

Gor's only true weapon is making people think we are a Sex Club. Make people come for the boobs and cock and hope they stay for the stories.


Well, that used to work. But I think they caught on. ;)
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Cassie
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Cassie » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:30 am

Yeah forgot to intend about the inner circle of the circle specification:

RP > GOR > semi-para written
Clique of a clique of a clique mentioned that.

I have lowered my standards (like skipping some errors and trying to not mind plot holes as much :| ) Overall I don't like myself waiting 15 minutes for a wall of written unless necessary. There have been moments where a wall of RP is necessary but when I run to someone for an urgency I expect not more than 2-3 lines.
Ok god didn't want to place standards there but my meaning is that while it's not fair for anyone to have to compromise their preference they actually should (SHOULD! SHOULD! SHOULD!) cause that's what a virtual game is for. If you never make a bend over you can't expect one from the other party.

That's why we complain to Blizzard for not letting us play offline.

Gor is a clique itself so when we go and expect a certain level teo we are aiming way high.

Don't know how to solve it.

I have been in Cracden... there is a constant amount of people and more men around than most Gorean sims. Also I never met a oneliner there but generally... most have this thing in common. A lot wait to for someone to approach them just like in Gor.
Refreshingly enough Rping as a guy there is no big deal since women can do what they want and I was generally ignored.
Godless heathens always waltz on the sky.
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Kaitlin
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Kaitlin » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:26 am

Theoden wrote:No, it isn't sexist. In fact, the same people who argued for the BTB-ness of veils summarized the no-veil people as simply wanting to show off their pixels. These are women who made this argument.

The gor sims that allow no veils are noob sims that GoT players won't play in. The good quality southern gor sims require veils (like kaelus), and turn away a segment of GoT female roleplayers who want to show off their avatar but don't want to be slaves.


The idea that sexism can only come from a man is priceless. My point is that you completely discounted reason 1-100 for not coming to play in gor and went right for a rather nonsensical one. They can't wear veils or show cleavage. I know plenty of players who have left Gor for GoT and plenty that would never set foot in Gor that play in GoT. You can bet the reasons I've heard have nothing to do with "I have to wear a veil".

Kaitlin wrote:
I'll ask again since maybe I wasn't being clear. What can a noble woman in GoT do that a FW can't do in Gor. Just the run of the mill role.


here you go

Theoden wrote:Last I checked, women in GoT don't get enslaved just because they sleep around.


Imagine if that were in RL. Any sexual expression means they get stripped of all their titles, assets, wealth, clothes, and whipped as if an object. Yeah, I'm pretty sure a society where a man can have a slave suck him off in public but a woman showing even a bit of skin gets put into slavery is very similar to the society we see in game of thrones *sarcasm*.


I was hoping that wasn't 100% of your argument about the differences in the role. But since it seems it is...

So in the GoT series you see noble women sleeping around in public? The same noble women with husbands or prospects of marriage? That is news to me. Certainly some had lovers and might have been mistresses but in Gor you have FW who can own male slaves and also have lovers. If this is the sum total of the difference you see then I'll stand by what I said. There are no real differences playing a FW and a noble high born woman in GoT. The perceived "freedom" of the role in GoT has more to do with ignorance of the role of a FW in SL Gor. That is a general statement.

If you're characterizing the differences as a ditch then I agree. Like I said before, it's not a grand canyon, there aren't major differences but there still are differences.

If we are agreeing on the same thing then I don't get why you don't just agree rather than agree argumentatively.


:facepalm:
Did you really just say that? I'll remember to add hugs and kisses to my future posts. If you want to read more than what is really here then I'll say again, fill your boots.

Theoden wrote:I pointed out the fact that the trickle up was slow, and later down in the post, i mentioned that there was a few who would trickle up. So technically Kaitlin is right in that we both agree on the fact of relative scarcity of the trickle up effect.

However, there's a subtle but important difference and nuance.
I mentioned the 'few' positively, that there ARE a few men we could cultivate, that people WILL benefit from a better meter. She regarded the 'few', what she renamed 'a handful' negatively, that it didn't matter. Glass half full = me, glass half empty = kaitlin.
...
Kaitlin and I may have agreed on the same 'fact' of a scarcity of candidates for the trickle up effect, but my view on the benefits of a new meter (should it become successful) is relatively positive whilst pointing toward an even better alternative method, and her view on the benefits was negative and dismissive.


Does it matter? Really? Same number of players.

The argument was made that a new meter would attract exactly the type of players that Gor needs to become something more than the current state by Blackwolf and then Glaucon. The answer is the same whether you are all happy about a new meter or you think it is more of the same cover for lack of creativity in RP. The latter is me of course.

It makes sense that we would look at this differently. You spend a lot of your time using/enjoying metered combat. I have spent a lot of my time on empty sims that are the general fallout of metered combat.

Gor is already viewed as an immature RP genre and more people running around with blazing arrows only to disappear from the sim when raiding is over on their new fancy meter isn't going to improve that image and open the door for that leeching you seem to think is possible. I see this new meter as described only attracting low level and new non-roleplayers with the manufactured scenes that were proposed when we first started debating this idea. More mature RPers might tolerate the meter in much the same way I do the current meter but it would not be an addition to their RP. I suspect there might also be a healthy level of derision when these type of players interact...the one who is getting cues from the meter for RP and the player who enjoys crafting creative scenarios.

If you could gin up a meter that somehow could perform the role of lore master/game master then I might view this in a more positive fashion.
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains.

Once upon a time... Kait
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Frevet
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Frevet » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:56 am

@ Theoden: You'd be surprised how many crappy role-players there are in medieval fnatasy sims/GoT sims. But with the few choices given, they seem to get eliminated rather quickly. There are very, very few sims of that kind that support a larger amount of players that are crappy. So apparently it does work in some way. The traffic DOES get spread like shit in Gor. Yet alone all those sims that cater to para-btb-rp are way too many for the comparably few people interested.

Sure, it adds variation, but if there are too much choices, people will sit on their respective empty sims for a long time. If there are no chocies, people learn to deal..and to teach. I have met quite a few people who actually learned how to rp in sims like KL...simply because they were told to either cope or leave.

Also, thanks a lot! :)
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Cassie
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Cassie » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:22 am

Frevet wrote:Sure, it adds variation, but if there are too much choices, people will sit on their respective empty sims for a long time. If there are no chocies, people learn to deal..and to teach. I have met quite a few people who actually learned how to rp in sims like KL...simply because they were told to either cope or leave.

Also, thanks a lot! :)


That's true.
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Architeuthis
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Architeuthis » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:10 am

Maybe if there were say 10 stable Gor sims instead of 200+ with new ones constantly opening and closing behaviors would be different.
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Victor.
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Victor. » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:04 pm

Architeuthis wrote:Maybe if there were say 10 stable Gor sims instead of 200+ with new ones constantly opening and closing behaviors would be different.


Imagine the amount of people who'd act like total dicks if they only had limited choices of sims to behave like that on before they'd simply be shit out of luck.

I am pretty sure it'd gravitate towards 0.
Eifersucht ist eine Leidenschaft, die mit Eifer sucht, was Leiden schafft. // Jealousy is a passion, seeking zealously what causes suffering. Franz Grillparzer

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