Traffic and you

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Does traffic effect your decision on playing at a sim?

Yes, I look for places to play based on highest traffic.
10
13%
Yes, I look for places to play based on highest traffic.
10
13%
No, I look for a city or theme I'm interested in and try playing in that sim.
23
29%
No, I look for a city or theme I'm interested in and try playing in that sim.
23
29%
Other(please explain)
6
8%
Other(please explain)
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78
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Glaucon
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Glaucon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:27 pm

Yeah, well.

Anyway... I think that it is a bit of a moot point. After all these years, I have concluded that the meter or other scripted stuff won't get any better. Not within the venue of SL, at least. So, while I agree with the 'ideal image' of Arc, it doesn't really matter.

The other way to improve things so Gor might be a bit more attractive to a larger group of male players would mean people/sims changing their overall attitude. Enough to make separating IC/OOC, ICA=ICC and conflict-driven RP possible. I am not sure that is 'in the cards' either. But any positive suggestions are probably going to have to be about bringing that about. Or at least on an individual sim or small group of sims.
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Kaitlin
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Kaitlin » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:50 pm

Theoden wrote:You are right, it does seem more so that it is the interaction with more mature roleplayers and personal development that creates better roleplay behavior.

However, inherent talent in writing is hit or miss. You can be the best IC/OOC separator and still have horrible to read roleplay.

Even as a noob in shinigami with no idea what IC/OOC separation is, at the very least I could still para rp. Of course, that by itself is nothing, but eventually I got into the 'game' of roleplay rather than 'soulplaying' it. I still occasionally see one or two men in noob sims like Rorus that hold promise and could be cultivated into something more. If there were more 'men', more men with inherent writing ability could be found and trickle upwards.


I don't think it is just contingent on writing ability. That may be a factor but it is one of many things that factor into player evolution. I could care less how good a players prose is if he is constantly stepping on my RP and relegates it to that of a second class citizen because I'm female, godmods frequently and heads into IMs for more than what the scene offers. If I had $20 for all the dick pictures, RP "guidance" and slave commands I've received in IM I'd be rich. That is the evolution that needs to happen and being on a sim like Rorus pretty much ensures that it won't when that is the norm. You have to know a behavior is wrong to correct.

Yes that sentence I wrote was rather badly written. I had a jumble of points in my head and had to write it out in a short time frame (since I was at work and didn't want to be caught posting :P ). That sentence doesn't make sense. Let me rewrite the points I had in my head:

1. In realm of ice and fire, women don't have to wear veils. Thus there is less incident of good female roleplayers that get turned away by the fact that they can't show off their pixels (a lot of women in GE are good roleplayers and can actually stick with IC/OOC separation and roleplay BTB... but they kind of like to be fashionistas as well and put a lot of effort into their avatar face. There are very few good robes of concealment out there as well).

With lax veil/skin/cleavage restrictions, the amount of good female roleplayers increases in KL due to no perceived drawbacks of not being able to show off , and thus the total amount of quality traffic increases.

2. Women in gor IC are weaker in power than in GoT. Thus it is harder to drive storylines. I'm not saying they cannot, I'm saying it is harder. Sure, they can drive their own interesting storylines, but certain aspects of gorean society kind of throws a monkey wrench in things. Male heads of caste. Male high council members. Male leaders. Male officers. Male male male. FW in the books just laid about and did nothing (general statement).


I appreciate the clarification but I'm still not sure I agree. Let's assume there is some truth to your first point regarding FW. What you have stated doesn't apply to slaves who generally prance around gor naked. If the appeal of an RP genre is just to show off your pixels then you have ample opportunity in SL Gor yet it still fails to attract a large number of good roleplayers in this role.

On #2 I'm not sure that GoT is really that different in terms of the power of women. Catelyn Stark is a perfect example of just how similar the role of a FW in Gor and GoT actually can be. It holds many of the same limitations or powerful roles unless you are in a very unique position. Those roles are the equivalent of a wealthy FW, Regent or Ubara.

A female noble in GoT can get a shit load of things done :D


First off, nobles with that type of power are limited roles in GoT. If a female role is being played in keeping with the theme of the GoT genre what do you believe they can do that can't be done by a gorean FW? I've played in both and frankly there is very little in the lore that is restrictive beyond clothing.

You are actually keying in on the central issue in SL Gor. There is a lack of understanding of the breadth of all roles and certainly of female roles. Free women owned businesses, owned slaves, dabbled in trade, a limited few held caste roles and were first in power in their family. Even slaves that dabble in intrigue and games of influence are not unknown in the books. An understanding of the genre would expand the female role further in direct competition with the possibilities in GoT if every he-man idiot didn't try and kill the RP. It isn't the genre that is limiting the role but the players. A new meter isn't going to do squat about that.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:57 pm

Yes, paragraph roleplay in itself isn't a guarantee of quality.

Nowadays when I get captured in GE I just tend to tell people to not bother roleplaying me because I know it'll be shit anyway. They can just TP me to the cages in an hour when the rescue comes. Sure, some of them can paragraph roleplay, but being fed icecream and your feet tickled as a captive is still facepalm-worthy and "ungorean", or rather unsuitable for the genre, wether they do it in paragraphs or not.

GE is full with good paragraph roleplayers, but a lot of them still deliver... situations which don't belong in the theme or setting of the gorean genre.
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:03 pm

Kaitlin wrote: I've played in both and frankly there is very little in the lore that is restrictive beyond clothing.


Quite sure that the main argument in that regard, on this forum, constantly is that FW can only hold power if they're puppets of men or the men let them... and that gorean men wouldn't obey orders from a woman, etc. bla bla...

Something I've often argued against. There's plenty of examples in the books of common gorean schmucks that had to and did listen to their FW superiours. Head of Caste would perhaps not be common, although that might depend from gorean city to city too.

But then we get more to the point of matter that gorean sims never have a power division that goes beyond a High Council of Caste Heads and Administrator / Ubar / Magistrate.

Some independant FW being extremely wealthy? Most people wouldn't really give that much weight or attention, most guys will RP being wealthier than her anyway.
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Kaitlin
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Kaitlin » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:07 pm

Anarch Allegiere wrote:
Kaitlin wrote: I've played in both and frankly there is very little in the lore that is restrictive beyond clothing.


Quite sure that the main argument in that regard, on this forum, constantly is that FW can only hold power if they're puppets of men or the men let them... and that gorean men wouldn't obey orders from a woman, etc. bla bla...

Something I've often argued against. There's plenty of examples in the books of common gorean schmucks that had to and did listen to their FW superiours.


You will never find me supporting heads of caste and other nonsense but I'd make the same argument in GoT for equivilent roles. You won't find many holding power in GoT either. They typically are not the heads of households, they don't manage their own money in many cases, they don't sit on council at court (unless very powerful...think Talena), they don't hold jobs outside the home unless it is low level service type work or a prostitute. In both genre real power is the result of manipulation, uses of wit and even secretive dealings. I can do all that in Gor.

I'm curious what latitude you believe they have in the lore not possible in Gor other than showing off cleavage and wearing their hair down their back.
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Theoden
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:25 pm

I feel like people just skim my posts.

Theoden wrote:Even as a noob in shinigami with no idea what IC/OOC separation is, at the very least I could still para rp. Of course, that by itself is nothing, but eventually I got into the 'game' of roleplay rather than 'soulplaying' it.


Never said it was the sole thing. You also need a willingness of people to learn how to be good roleplayers. But writing ability is intrinsic.

You have a choice of A: Teaching someone how to write well (years and years of schooling/talent/practice) or B: Telling people so and so is wrong, so and so is right, and how to RP, and hope they learn.

I choose B, because A is rather hard to do.

I never said it was 'just contingent' on writing ability.

Kaitlin wrote:I appreciate the clarification but I'm still not sure I agree. Let's assume there is some truth to your first point regarding FW. What you have stated doesn't apply to slaves who generally prance around gor naked. If the appeal of an RP genre is just to show off your pixels then you have ample opportunity in SL Gor yet it still fails to attract a large number of good roleplayers in this role.



You assume playing slaves and free women are interchangeable. Some good female rpers don't want to play as a slave and prefer to play a free woman that can show off her face and cleavage.


Kaitlin wrote:
On #2 I'm not sure that GoT is really that different in terms of the power of women. Catelyn Stark is a perfect example of just how similar the role of a FW in Gor and GoT actually can be. It holds many of the same limitations or powerful roles unless you are in a very unique position. Those roles are the equivalent of a wealthy FW, Regent or Ubara.


A wealthy FW or general run of the mill Ubara do not have the same amount of power as a GoT noble woman, the queen of dragons, the red priest and all the other 'strong' female roles that seem to be an under running motif in the game of thrones books.

Last I checked, women in GoT don't get enslaved just because they sleep around.

EDIT ADDED IN: Even if you write off the queen of dragons, red priest , giant blond kings guard woman, and what not, as Talena rare types, you would still see that even amongst common women vs common gorean women, there is a sense of more egalitarian views in how men deal with women. Though gorean men would let their fw run their mouths and respected higher status fw types, if the fw ever fuck up in what's expected of them as a prude fw, that's enslavement for them.

There is not a grand canyon of differences, but there is a difference, and GoT women have more 'power' than Gor women. Sure, there are some Gor FW that owned businesses, slaves, limited caste roles and trade. I am well aware of that and you need not insult me by saying I have a lack of understanding. Women in those situations were uncommon. Most higher casted free women in the books laid about and did not hold a profession. Though many noble women in GoT were the same, there is a higher occurrence of women getting involved and doing stuff than Gor FW.
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Kaitlin
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Kaitlin » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:05 am

Theoden wrote:I feel like people just skim my posts.


If you are referring to me you would be wrong. I prefer plain speaking.

Never said it was the sole thing. You also need a willingness of people to learn how to be good roleplayers. But writing ability is intrinsic.


And I never stated you said it was the only thing. I stated pretty clearly that your example of a guy in Rorus becoming an excellent RPer is not likely to happen given all the other reasons he is probably not a candidate for "evolution" as a mature roleplayer. I'm not trying to boost your ego by saying you aren't the norm but you aren't.

I never said it was 'just contingent' on writing ability.


I'll repeat. I didn't say you did. I used the word "just" to make my own point crystal clear of why I don't agree about the guy in Rorus being "cultivated". It appears it is you who have chosen to start skimming apparently.

You assume playing slaves and free women are interchangeable. Some good rper women don't want to play as a slave and prefer to play a free woman that can show off her face and cleavage.


No that isn't my assumption. I offered a contrast to your position that some roleplayers care more about showing their pixels and that is why they choose GoT. I figured it was a better response than saying "bullshit". To reduce the choice of many female players down to whether they can show off their avatar or not strikes me as sexist nonsense. It might explain why many sims don't require a veil in Gor but it doesn't explain why a player who can dress in similar attire chooses GoT over Gor. Are male players the only players who have an interest in adventure, separation of IC/OOC and adherence to RP basics? There are quite a few things that stack pretty high in comparison when making the choice of GoT vs Gor for a female player. Whether to wear a veil or not or whether to show cleavage or not doesn't appear to be one of them in my experience in the genre.

A wealthy FW or general run of the mill Ubara do not have the same amount of power as a GoT noble woman, the queen of dragons, the red priest and all the other 'strong' female roles that seem to be an under running motif in the game of thrones books.

Last I checked, women in GoT don't get enslaved just because they sleep around.

There is not a grand canyon of differences, but there is a difference, and GoT women have more 'power' than Gor women. Sure, there are some that owned businesses, slaves, limited caste roles and trade. I am well aware of that and you need not insult me by saying I have a lack of understanding. Women in those situations were uncommon. Most higher casted free women in the books laid about and did not hold a profession. Though many noble women in GoT were the same, there is a higher occurrence of women getting involved and doing stuff than Gor FW.


Stating you are wrong isn't an insult but if you want to take it that way then fill your boots.

I see very little difference in the power of noble women in GoT and the FW in Gor. You have just as many "unique" female characters in the gorean series (Talena, Vika, Yasmin, Elizabeth, Verna to name a few) as you have in the GoT series. Offering up unique roles as proof of power doesn't cut it. There are countless mentions of the latitude of a gorean FW particularly in the Jason Trilogy that completely trumps that belief completely. Not holding a profession does not equate to limited power, wealth or having an expanded role in gorean society. Seriously how many noble women in GoT have a job?

It's a ditch, definitely not the grand canyon. GoT is one of the most sexist and violent genre available for RP based on the lore. The only pass you get as a noble woman or any other woman for that matter in GoT is that wearing a collar isn't on the table but I'm pretty sure some roles in a medieval setting aren't much of a step up.

I'll ask again since maybe I wasn't being clear. What can a noble woman in GoT do that a FW can't do in Gor. Just the run of the mill role.
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HorizonNinetails
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby HorizonNinetails » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:43 am

Theoden wrote:I feel like people just skim my posts.


You have a choice of A: Teaching someone how to write well (years and years of schooling/talent/practice) or B: Telling people so and so is wrong, so and so is right, and how to RP, and hope they learn.

I choose B, because A is rather hard to do.

I never said it was 'just contingent' on writing ability.



I think you can actually bring out the creativity pretty easily. People come to gor and see short posts, and thats all they ever write. If you introduce them to creativity - to expand their horizons, then they start adopting more complicated writing styles. I dont think it takes years to bring out - not for everyone. It didn't for my own writing.
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Theoden
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:51 am

Kaitlin wrote:
And I never stated you said it was the only thing.

[...]

I'll repeat. I didn't say you did. I used the word "just" to make my own point crystal clear of why I don't agree about the guy in Rorus being "cultivated". It appears it is you who have chosen to start skimming apparently.




When you put something like this RIGHT AFTER a quote of me, it generally suggests that you are implying that is my position, and you are introducing a counter argument.

Kaitlin wrote:I don't think it is just contingent on writing ability. That may be a factor but it is one of many things that factor into player evolution.






Kaitlin wrote:

You assume playing slaves and free women are interchangeable. Some good rper women don't want to play as a slave and prefer to play a free woman that can show off her face and cleavage.


No that isn't my assumption. I offered a contrast to your position that some roleplayers care more about showing their pixels and that is why they choose GoT. I figured it was a better response than saying "bullshit".



Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. What I meant to say was there are a sizable segment of the quality female roleplayer population who wish to RP as a FW and to also be able to show cleavage and their faces and their pixels, who don't wish to RP as slaves. I wasn't really thinking about the slave role at that point, I was more thinking towards normal women.


Kaitlin wrote:
To reduce the choice of many female players down to whether they can show off their avatar or not strikes me as sexist nonsense. It might explain why many sims don't require a veil in Gor but it doesn't explain why a player who can dress in similar attire chooses GoT over Gor.



No, it isn't sexist. In fact, the same people who argued for the BTB-ness of veils summarized the no-veil people as simply wanting to show off their pixels. These are women who made this argument.

The gor sims that allow no veils are noob sims that GoT players won't play in. The good quality southern gor sims require veils (like kaelus), and turn away a segment of GoT female roleplayers who want to show off their avatar but don't want to be slaves.


Kaitlin wrote:
I'll ask again since maybe I wasn't being clear. What can a noble woman in GoT do that a FW can't do in Gor. Just the run of the mill role.


here you go

Theoden wrote:Last I checked, women in GoT don't get enslaved just because they sleep around.


Imagine if that were in RL. Any sexual expression means they get stripped of all their titles, assets, wealth, clothes, and whipped as if an object. Yeah, I'm pretty sure a society where a man can have a slave suck him off in public but a woman showing even a bit of skin gets put into slavery is very similar to the society we see in game of thrones *sarcasm*.

If you're characterizing the differences as a ditch then I agree. Like I said before, it's not a grand canyon, there aren't major differences but there still are differences.

If we are agreeing on the same thing then I don't get why you don't just agree rather than agree argumentatively.
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Theoden
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:55 am

HorizonNinetails wrote:I think you can actually bring out the creativity pretty easily. People come to gor and see short posts, and thats all they ever write. If you introduce them to creativity - to expand their horizons, then they start adopting more complicated writing styles. I dont think it takes years to bring out - not for everyone. It didn't for my own writing.



Perhaps not for everyone but generally, people need to have paid attention in middle school and high school in English class to grasp grammar, sentence structure, vocabulary, and have had practice in creative thinking. All this takes years to develop generally.

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