The thin red line for BTB RP

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How close should the RP be to the Books

RP should be exactly as the books, even the characters and names
0
No votes
RP should be exactly as the books, even the characters and names
0
No votes
RP should be Close to the books, with freedom of making one's character
23
37%
RP should be Close to the books, with freedom of making one's character
23
37%
RP should be at a distance from the books not to mix up their characters to the roleplayers'
3
5%
RP should be at a distance from the books not to mix up their characters to the roleplayers'
3
5%
RP should be further off from any written character or even the opposite
0
No votes
RP should be further off from any written character or even the opposite
0
No votes
RP should only use the theme and background of the books nothing more
5
8%
RP should only use the theme and background of the books nothing more
5
8%
 
Total votes: 62
JackoS
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby JackoS » Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:05 pm

Mynerva wrote:
Glaucon wrote:I don't get the outlaw issue (well, I do, but bear with me): if the FW from a city were to companion an outlaw, with him staying an outlaw... they would not 'companion', formally. He is an outlaw, and thus, not within the city law. So, she would become an outlaw as well. And if he related to her as a free woman (and not a slave), she would effectively be free, so, effectively, a free woman (though with no effective legal status withing the city, making her the equal of any woman that isn't a free woman of a city and yet not acting like a slave, which, in my mind, would number many women on Gor).

And then you'd have a female outlaw! :shock: :o :fleeflee:


You are right - if it was played like that - I could go with that.

BUT - usually those kinds of things look more like that.

Beautiful female physician (merchant, scribe, take your pick) meets dangerous, brooding outlaw who hangs around her city. They start having tea together and lots of flirting is soon to follow. Then he courts her - while still being all dark and dangerous of course. Then the companion - often with a ceremony where half the sim is invited - she looks her usual beautiful self, and he is still dark and dangerous and wears lots of weapons.

The woman never even thinks about being ashamed - hell, she is in love! She never even thinks of leaving her city and living the outlaw life because she would be afraid of being thrown in jail or enslaved by the enraged locals - oh hell no - she is in love and everyone should accept her FC - because damned she loves him and wants to play out her love story!

The end :innocent:


And they live happily ever after, frowning on GE Gor cause they are a bunch of pew pewers who have nothing to do with what Gor really is.... :clap:
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Sasi
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby Sasi » Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:19 pm

Mynerva wrote:
Glaucon wrote:I don't get the outlaw issue (well, I do, but bear with me): if the FW from a city were to companion an outlaw, with him staying an outlaw... they would not 'companion', formally. He is an outlaw, and thus, not within the city law. So, she would become an outlaw as well. And if he related to her as a free woman (and not a slave), she would effectively be free, so, effectively, a free woman (though with no effective legal status withing the city, making her the equal of any woman that isn't a free woman of a city and yet not acting like a slave, which, in my mind, would number many women on Gor).

And then you'd have a female outlaw! :shock: :o :fleeflee:


You are right - if it was played like that - I could go with that.

BUT - usually those kinds of things look more like that.

Beautiful female physician (merchant, scribe, take your pick) meets dangerous, brooding outlaw who hangs around her city. They start having tea together and lots of flirting is soon to follow. Then he courts her - while still being all dark and dangerous of course. Then the companion - often with a ceremony where half the sim is invited - she looks her usual beautiful self, and he is still dark and dangerous and wears lots of weapons.

The woman never even thinks about being ashamed - hell, she is in love! She never even thinks of leaving her city and living the outlaw life because she would be afraid of being thrown in jail or enslaved by the enraged locals - oh hell no - she is in love and everyone should accept her FC - because damned she loves him and wants to play out her love story!

The end :innocent:


ROFL! Yes, exactly that, lol lol!

Too I noticed that the snowflakes of books, are still conditioned by their Gorean culture or are from Earth....

I dont remember one that is really out of the norm, neither...
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Cassie
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby Cassie » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:01 pm

What? No no no... I never said I'd companion an outlaw that will go around shouting it! Here is where I meant to draw the line. I am rping on my own and someone approaches me and I know nothing about his past or anything at all. If things proceed hey maybe I decide he looks respectable, well motivated and enough coin to be worthy to be called companion.

Now there are several reasons why I would not companion an outlaw as FW citizen and IC wise as well as many reasons that would not allow said man to enter the city. But the guards are NPC, heck maybe the city is empty and it's us two rping crowds around us so what you do if the person has a head on his shoulder and rp goes that way? Stop it and take him to the magistrate to verify his caste and status? I am not sure it is clear that I wanted to really follow up on is that what you have before you IC is what really counts.

Yes of course the same goes for panthers entering cities as free women and barely anyone questions who they are cause people know, they don't care and frankly most mods would rather have the panther enter in disguise than sneak into the city.
So of course they will deal with IC rp that revolves a FW and companion... have babies... get a job and then one day return to the wild. Absurd as it is putting a halt to something so blunt and honestly easy to rp with is looking for hair in the egg.
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Kaitlin
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby Kaitlin » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:26 am

Mynerva wrote:
BUT - usually those kinds of things look more like that.

Beautiful female physician (merchant, scribe, take your pick) meets dangerous, brooding outlaw who hangs around her city. They start having tea together and lots of flirting is soon to follow. Then he courts her - while still being all dark and dangerous of course. Then the companion - often with a ceremony where half the sim is invited - she looks her usual beautiful self, and he is still dark and dangerous and wears lots of weapons.

The woman never even thinks about being ashamed - hell, she is in love! She never even thinks of leaving her city and living the outlaw life because she would be afraid of being thrown in jail or enslaved by the enraged locals - oh hell no - she is in love and everyone should accept her FC - because damned she loves him and wants to play out her love story!

The end :innocent:


:clap:
Pretty much this. Damn you Mynerva that was just too damn funny not to comment.
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains.

Once upon a time... Kait
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Glaucon
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby Glaucon » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:28 am

@ Mynerva: I concede that your scenario is the more likely one, I suppose, given the 'typical' FW players I used to encounter (and the typical outlaw hanging in cities).

@ JackoS: I am not sure it would be THAT unlikely for an outlaw to enter a city, really. The clearest example I can think of is in book 2, with Tarl openly declaring himself an outlaw, and still being allowed inside Tharna. In my mind, there would be a significant number of 'strangers' inside a larger city at any time (traders, travellers (including escorts), people working and sailing ships, and so forth) and since Gor doesn't come with passports, and because I don't think that every person trying to enter a larger city would be grilled by a gate-guard, it would be pretty easy and relatively safe for an outlaw to enter a city, as long as he didn't go around advertizing the fact that he was one. And even if they did admint not being from another city, I am not sure they would be impaled on the spot in every city. Ultimately, a stranger is a stranger, whether they are an Ubar, a physician or an outlaw, and a city needs longer-distance commerce (the primary reason for the existance of cities) which means a city must allow strangers in, to some degree.
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Mynerva
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby Mynerva » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:36 am

Kaitlin wrote: Damn you Mynerva that was just too damn funny not to comment.


Got ya! :teehee:
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JackoS
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby JackoS » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:03 am

Glaucon. First of all the incident in Outlaws of Gor, where Tarl enters Tharna, he mentions that Tharna is a strange city, an outlier compared with other cities in that it has a Tatrix and seems friendly with outlaws. What he doesn't mention at that time is the dark side of that friendliness: Outlaws are allowed into the city to be enslaved for work in the mines.

Other cities as the book mentions, impale outlaws on the spot. Besides, why would a city allow an outlaw wander around? Outlaws have no homestone nor caste to protect them, so they make the perfect slave candidates.

Another issue is when you mention that cities would allow strangers in as they need commerce. I see two problems with that if one considers the ways of Gor and how goreans think. First Gorean cities would not allow strangers, as strangers and enemies are one and the same for them (at least they have the same word). They might allow foreigners, newcomers etc.... not strangers for sure. But this might be only a semantic issue.

Second, Cities in gor are pretty much organized so they don't rely too much on commerce, just like the ancient world. That is why the caste system exists, to make sure you have people making everything the city needs. In those societies commerce is really small. But even in that case, a trading house from lets say Koroba would be doing business with a trading house of Ar and hence papers, presentation letters, documents would be available for the gates. Even some socities in gor require that if you want to approach them, you be branded like a slave (i.e. the nomads of the plains of Turia).

Just showing up at a gate in a gorean city and stating caste and homestone would not get you in for sure (from what I know from the books, a guard could impale you just because you are not of the city). You wold probably need to explain the reason for you to be there, ask permission to enter, proved assurances and guarantees, maybe have someone in the city to vouch for you.
Hawt Sommer

Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby Hawt Sommer » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:49 am

Obviously.

By the book should be by the book and based on John Norman's novels, and the content there in.

Which with the introduction of every new book written by his son we get closer and closer to leather bikini/ boot wearing, katana swinging, ninja femlaws.

Soon Gor will Reunite and be one big happy family again.
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby Glaucon » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:38 pm

Hawt Sommer wrote:Obviously.

By the book should be by the book and based on John Norman's novels, and the content there in.

Which with the introduction of every new book written by his son we get closer and closer to leather bikini/ boot wearing, katana swinging, ninja femlaws.

Soon Gor will Reunite and be one big happy family again.


:) :roflmao:

@ JackoS: Tharna IS an odd city. But it isn't 'odd' in a way that would make it MORE of a haven for outlaws. Rather, the direction it deviates in would point to LESS tolerance for outlaws, if anything. Sure, there is that 'enslave' thing, but had Tarl been less clueless than he was about the city, it is clear he could have avoided that fate easily as well (by leaving again before sundown, if I am not mistaken... it has been a while).

About cities impaling outlaws on the spot... I am not sure, but do the books say that EVERY CITY impales outlaws on the spot, always? Or is it one of the usual 'in many cities outlaws are...' or 'an outlaw might be...'-things? I would guess it was the second.

But what is an outlaw, really? Is it always so clear? A peasant, not living inside a city isn't an outlaw. Does a hunter living by himself not far from a village that is close to Lydius rate as an outlaw, or as a citizen of Lydius? Has he been taken to Lydius to swear to it's homestone? Do cities maintain a census of everyone living outside their walls, but within their dominion? Is every sailor of a ship sworn to the homestone the captain, or to another homestone, perhaps?

I don't think any of that is the case. And I don't think that anyone that isn't sworn to a homestone would be counted as a slave. Sure, the hunter living in the woods near Lydius that I mentioned may not be PROTECTED. But that doesn't mean anyone is all that interested in trying to enslave him. Unlike the Roman world, the foundation of the Gorean economy is not slavery, but working free people. Clearly, male slaves might have their uses (working in mines, pulling oars and such), but the demand would not be unlimited, and gorean men are said to be hard to control (though some examples in the books seem to indicate otherwise).

In my mind, there would be plenty of people living outside of cities, on Gor, and I think that there would be much blurring of the lines, there (where law doesn't mean much). I remember the quote of Norman indicating that peasants and outlaws often cooperate and deal with each other, out if sight of the city authorities. Apparently, they don't feel there is such a huge divide between them. Which makes perfect sense.

As for cities allowing in strangers... there are MANY examples in the books of cities doing just that. Even Tarl, who seems to try to challenge just about everyone he meets. And I don't get your 'semantic argument' A stranger IS someone you don't know. Which would be true for most foreigners and travellers (at least, on their first visit). Yes, I know about the 'enemy' thing. But it is also clear that the fact that the fact that these two words are the same doesn't mean that a red caste would immediately cut the throat of a man whose face was unfamiliar to him in the street. The fact that the word is the same indicates a shared root, which indicates a particular mentality (towards strangers). It doesn't mean that the two meanings are, in fact, the same.

And I am sorry... I cannot agree with this bit at all:

Second, Cities in gor are pretty much organized so they don't rely too much on commerce, just like the ancient world.


Cities of the ancient world (say, that of Imperial Rome) DID rely very much on commerce. Without commerce, especially longer distance commerce, many of these cities could not survive. Or at least, not as they were. Which is shown pretty clearly in the centuries after the decline of the Roman empire (the early middle ages), when long-distance trade which had been very extensive during the Roman era pretty much ground to a halt, and in which the population of nearly all major cities fell dramatically (often to up to a tenth or more of what they had been a couple of centuries before).

Of course, that is history, not Gor, but I think it is clear from the books that this is pretty much the case in Gor as well. Merchant law exists in most high gorean cities, for that very purpose. A city like Ar is so huge it must get it's food from many places, caste system or no caste system. Turian goods pop up everywhere. Thentis would not be guarding it's monopoly so fervently if it's exports weren't very important to it. Sure, there are peoples and places in Gor that don't seem to play the trading game much. But as far as the high cities of Gor go, I think that nearly all of them would be focussed on trade of some sort or other. Self-sufficency isn't a natural characteristic of cities. That doesn't mean that cities would be trade-oriented in the way a city like 18th century London or Marseille was, but long tern trade would still be a major function of nearly any city. A city that only serves as a center of short-distance trade isn't really a city. It is a town, at most. And, naturally, many aspects associated with slavery are also directly associated with trade, including long distance trade.

Besides, there are just too many examples in the books of people not of a homestone being in a homestone, unmolested. Maybe without declaring themselves, perhaps under assumed identities, sure. But cities in Gor are fairly small government. They could not keep track of everyone all the time, and they would be far too large and open to the world to keep out all the rif-raf. That might be different in a torvie village, but the books make it clear enough that a place like Ar is something you can get in and out of fairly easily. Gor simple isn't North-Korea.
JackoS
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Re: The thin red line for BTB RP

Postby JackoS » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:22 pm

Glaucon

Thanks for your comments. Sure, not all cities might impale outlaws but the more one thinks of the outlaw institution in Gor, one more sees that they make perfect slaves. With no homestone to protect them nor caste to call for caste sanctuary they are really perfect. Don't think of the super outlaw or the super warrior, think the average man, someone that if faced with three or four guards really stands no chance.

Sure, male slavery is not very common in gor, but the few jobs they are employed at must be, considering their past earthly counterparts (galleys, mines, etc...) of very high rotation (that is, you don't last much in there). So pretty much slavers and cities must be thinking that probably it is a good idea to enslave the outlaw.

Yes the boundary between an outlaw and a peasent is blurred. Is everybody outside the walls of a city an outlaw? what about Nomads, Alars, Torvaldslands and the rest? Reality is, we focus too much on outlaws in sl gor, but for goreans in the books, anyone with which they don't share homestone is free game (together with their property). There are many quotes saying that, from the one where it is said that the Free Women of other cities are just flowers waiting to be picked up (enslaved) to the one in Swordsman where Tarl admits that the protection of a Free Woman is in the codes, but it usually refers to a Free Woman with which the warrior shares a homestone. And lets not forget that Port Kar saw the rencers as a source of slaves.

What I am trying to say I guess is that goreans seem to see everything that is not of their homestone as something foreign and that is free game for them. Yes sure, all depends on the circumstances: a lonely free woman walking up to the gate of a city would certainly be enslaved. A powerful Free Woman well escorted and with friends inside the city that have invited her and vouched for her, would probably be allowed to pass. And in between you have all the alternatives you want.

And with outlaws it might also be the case. Goreans are above all practical. They have to be in a world harsh and difficult as the one they are in. So, if the outlaws are a small band of hunters that keep the village or city fed, sure they will be allowed in and out, if they are a potential menace for the commerce of the city, they will be hunted down. And again, anything in between. My opinion is that as Christians in the middle ages, where the word of Christian to an infidel, the Christian wasn't required to fulfill it; guess the word given to an outlaw may be broken if it suits the city, as well, the outlaw is someone who has decided to live on his own.

Finally something about the origin of an outlaw. There are basically two ways somebody becomes an outlaw: either he is kicked out of his city or banned from it, usually because he is a criminal or done something against the city and/or the homestone (think Marlenus in Tarnsman). Or he belonged to a homestone which has been destroyed. In the first case, do you think ordinary, honorary people want to have relations with a crook? Unless there are great benefits, or needs (like recruiting them as mercenaries for a caravan or expedition) probably not. In the case of an outlaw who has lost his homestone, he belongs to a weak city, one who allowed its homestone to be destroyed and he was coward enough not to fight to the bitter end to safe the homestone. Again, most goreans would not want much to do with him.

As to commerce. Sure in Rome there was a lot of long range commerce, but because the Roman empire provided one political safe entity where caravans and merchants could move fast using the Roman roads (brought to you by the legion). But before and after the Roman Empire commerce fell dramatically. The reason, the space between the cities or states was void, and full of bandits and raiders and in the case of sea lanes, pirates (it was the Romans who managed to defeat the Mediterranean pirates).

Gor looks to me more like before or after the Roman Empire, rather the Roman Empire. Was there any commerce, sure. But it was handled by caravans and very powerful merchant houses which secured passage for good and services with swords, bribes and letters of passage. A merchant wouldn't simply grab a wagon and go off to the road to try luck. Probably it would end up dead and whatever cargo he carries lost or stolen (just as an example, the price/cost ratio of goods in europe purchased in Asia during the middle ages was 200:1 due mainly to losses in transportation).

Guess that is why most gorean cities were prepared to survive long periods of time without many goods and services coming in from commerce. And hence the caste system, which guarantees that the basic goods and services that any society needs to survive will be available.

Finally something that I always wonder why we don't use more as argument, which is the Priest Kings. I heard many saying that societies evolve and always look for ways to improve themselves. However never forget that in Gor there is a all powerful race of superhighly advanced alien ants that make sure that doesn't happen. Yes sure, it might not be very realistic but it is what John Norman likes, and we have to deal with them. And one of the things they have banned (besides guns and body armour) is fast means of transportation and communication (hence there are no radios or cars in gor). And the reason is in one of the first chapters in Tarnsman: They want each city to fend off by itself as much as it can; going again to the basis, survival of the fitest.

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