Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slavery?

PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING!

Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slavery?

1. Yes, because ...
15
42%
1. Yes, because ...
15
42%
2. No, because ...
3
8%
2. No, because ...
3
8%
 
Total votes: 36
User avatar
Anarch Allegiere
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 am
SL Name: Anarch Allegiere

Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slavery?

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:50 pm

Just a quick poll to see what people's opinion on this is.

I personally think that Norman left the door wide open for anything in his world really, and that people are wrong when they imagine that 'gorean' slavery should somehow be a more romantic, softer or more black/white version than what earth slavery used to be like.

Spartacus is a very good show to use as example in this where we have in the last seasons for example the following:

Kore - A kind and noble woman. Despite being a slave she speaks on an equal level with Tiberius and, on occassion, Crassus. She is extremely loyal, holding Crassus in high-regard and he in return shows her the same to which the two have formed a loving-intimate relationship.

Basically a situation where the Head of a wealthy family treats his slave as if she was his loving romance partner and listens to her advice on how to run his family. She is generally never seen serving anyone but the head of her house and his sons, and she is presumably held in high regard in her household... Although this sometimes gets challenged and -sometimes- she gets reminded of her status as slave again.


This is just one example, there are several more examples surely of slaves as instructors, slaves as teachers, slaves as overseer of accounting and merchant businesses etc. etc.

So, what is your opinion?
Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slavery?
User avatar
Glaucon
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:07 am

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby Glaucon » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:15 pm

Yep.

Slavery on earth has been quite diverse. You had your racially segregated slavery (as in the Americas)), you had your good ol' generational transmitted slavery, slaves 'made' by capturing people in war, slaves through financial debt, and various forms of 'enslavement' tied to land (and it's owner), as with many medieval and early modern peasants. Slaves could be very wealthy, influential, and powerful, or living on the edge of life, doing the horrible work. You even had soldier-slaves (especially in the Ottoman empire), some of which could rise to the level of high officer, even.

Slavery on Gor seems less diverse. You don't seem to have the highly influential and rich slaves that existed on earth. Certainly, there are no military slaves (though there IS the spear slave in Kaissa, so maybe there were military slaves at one point). Clearly, a gorean would be unwilling to accept orders from a high-placed slave. The slave-free difference is sharp, on Gor. Much more so than it would be on many places on earth. After all, if you are ruled by authoritarian despots that hold the power of life and death over your head, what does freedom mean? Goreans are usually not under such despotic rule, however, and clearly value their freedom greatly.

Another clear difference is the pleasure slave thing. Sure, you had that in earth's history (depending on place and time), but it usually wasn't that prominent. Clearly, romans used 'slaves' for such purpose, but it wasn't really anything to advertize in polite society. Even more so in the case of slavery in the Americas. On Gor, clearly, the trade in pleasure slaves and the keeping of them is done very openly, with pride.

So yes, different... the biggest factor determining the difference probably being the importance of 'freedom' on Gor (which, in a way, widens the 'gap' between slave and non-slave).
User avatar
Anarch Allegiere
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 am
SL Name: Anarch Allegiere

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:19 pm

Glaucon wrote:Goreans are usually not under such despotic rule, however, and clearly value their freedom greatly.


Isn't that an overtly romanticized view though?

I can't imagine Gor really existing in that way, I imagine that among the poorer Low Castes, or even High Castes for that matter they'd still have widely varying degrees in freedom, poverty and power. I imagine that certain low castes in large cities would still live very servantile lives towards those who are better off than them, that would have to obey to the whim of whomever their boss was. Even in the army, Red Caste, there was supposedly the strict discipline and military hierarchy that had to be respected.

I imagine Gor having just as many "free" workers who aren't living in good conditions as any generic society on earth would've had. We had after all for example the men who had been put under military command of a woman (I can't imagine a gorean agreeing with such unless they felt their status didn't allow them to object (or what with those men who decided to become the private guard or private push-over of a Free Woman? :P ), of scribes who had been placed under supervision of a slave-girl in Port Kar (also again something I can't imagine being done unless the difference in status warranted such).

Maybe the difference was only sharp in the narration of the stories of the books because Norman tried to create a certain theme with his works, he wanted to create perhaps an unrealistic and epic theme that exaggurated the philosophies of gorean life in his stories just to be able to emphasize further all the kinky Master / sex-slave stories in his works?
User avatar
HorizonNinetails
Posts: 394
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:19 am
SL Name: Horizon Ninetails
Caste: Pirate
Role: Scoundrel
Home Stone: Deck beneath my feet

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby HorizonNinetails » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:33 pm

She was seen at equal footing to Tibereus only while he was considered a boy. In the end, Crassus is the fool.

Theres plenty of romance in Spartacus as well.

Crassus would still be viewed as a social oddity if most knew what he was up to. That he wasnt just using her as a vagina.

I've watched all of the episodes to date. I haven't yet seen where a slave would hold greater esteem than anything other than the lowest of peasants.

Even in it - Lyta (sic?) gets branded, and she pretty much admits defeat to it.

But if you're trying to make a gor - Spartacus comparison, I think you'd need to get Sparacus, Gan, and Crixus in furkinis
User avatar
beth ronmark
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:19 pm
SL Name: Liz Shim
Caste: Torvie
Role: Lurking on Occassion
Home Stone: Hrafnvik
AkA: Relia Blue Tooth
Location: frozen tundra
Contact:

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby beth ronmark » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:52 pm

Well, with Lyta, (if I'm thinking of Oenomaus' wife) she got the mark of the domina. That was considered an honor.

I can see some parallel. Maybe I'm jaded. But with Beth enslaved, it doesn't mean her education and up bringing never happened. Jake knows this and does gain her opinion on different deals, etc. And if she gets too well, let's just say he's good at reminding her she's still a slave.

Kind of like Kore. True, in the portrayal of the show, she was a high slave in the house and truly Crassus' love slave. And his wife was jealous. But she was still a slave, as evidence of getting raped by young Tiberius. The guilt of not being able to tell Crassus' and when she learned she'd be staying in Tiberius' care, while as adviser, at least that's what Crassus' believed sent her to join up with Spartacus' camp. At that point she was well reminded that she was a slave. Nor did she believe that the man she loved, the one who owned her would believe him over his own son.

I think some slaves were loved, cherished, others treated as property and nothing more. Some stood in the background, gave baths, ran kitchens, did laundry, cleaned and rarely spoke to any other than the slaves around them, while others grew in status within the house and mingled more with those that were free, free with in that house that is. It's not like they were running the streets just chatting up every free person. If they were on errand, they were guarded.

House slaves didn't go to work in the brothels or taverns. That was left to brothel slaves and tavern slaves. Personally, I'd like to see more of that in SL Gor.

That said, you need to look at the time period you are looking at slavery, if that makes sense.

Civil War - sucky time to be a slave. Not a whole lot of kindness showen. There was no honor placed on it.

Roman era - still a somewhat sucky time to be a slave, but there was honor to some of it. Gladiators held up as heroes. Slaves could rise within a house. Still a slave but also deemed of value.

I don't think gorean slavery needs to be all that different from the more roman earth slavery model that the OP talked about. It should be open to where your storyline flows. Are you going to be the slave who is a fly on the wall? Are you a slave who is valued in a home and has risen to favor?
User avatar
Glaucon
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:07 am

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby Glaucon » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:55 pm

Ah, we are talking TV series instead of actual history now. My bad.

In which case... the only difference between Gor and earth is... earth has more blood (because no one uses blood particles in SL).
User avatar
beth ronmark
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:19 pm
SL Name: Liz Shim
Caste: Torvie
Role: Lurking on Occassion
Home Stone: Hrafnvik
AkA: Relia Blue Tooth
Location: frozen tundra
Contact:

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby beth ronmark » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:36 pm

That's what I thought how we were discussing, based on the OP's example. *laughs* I don't know what slavery was like back then other than horrid. Yes gladiators were "heroes"

There could have been examples like on the show, after all, people are involved, love happens, etc.

But, either way, both offered option for the ability to submit freely to a house or were captured, sold, purchased and repeat.

Slavery on earth and slavery on gor also isn't easy either way you look at it. Both have their pros and cons. Both can be harsh, cruel. Both can have a life of love, a life of peace. Slaves can be high slaves or lowly ones serving in brothels.

Just my two cents.
User avatar
DarbyDollinger
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:43 am
SL Name: Darby Dollinger
Caste: Slaver
Home Stone: Amongst the ruins of Salernum.
Location: Port Kar

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby DarbyDollinger » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:32 am

Most of the details of slavery in the books were taken from real world examples, but there's an extra element in the slavery that Norman created - it's partly inspired by BDSM. Thus, amongst oher things, you get a greater divide between a free man (Dom) and a slave (sub) than what often existed in real life, which is why it's hard to imagine a situation existing like the one you mentioned with Kore.

Think about a 'scene' in BDSM. It's generally quite formal and structured, with protocols and theatrical touches like kneeling positions and the like. Gorean slavery also has a lot of that, whereas real life tended to be a bit more casual.
User avatar
Anarch Allegiere
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 am
SL Name: Anarch Allegiere

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:01 am

Well... Norman -did- specifically describe High Slaves...

Indeed, she had been not only a high slave, and the preferred slave of the Polemarkos, but his confidante, as well. She had, thus, been privy to many secrets. Too, through her wiles and his weakness, she had exercised great influence over him. She had, thus, though ultimately only a slave, become a force in his retinue. Even free men had shamefully courted her favor.

- Vagabonds of Gor.


Later in the same book there is apparently the indication that High Slaves weren't expected to kneel often.

I gathered that she must be a high slave, and that she had a general permission to speak. - Witness of Gor


“She was as greedy as she is beautiful,” said the officer. “She had much freedom in
the Cosian camp, given even her own quarters, in which only her Master could call upon her. In these quarters, amidst her cushions and silks, surrounded by her jewel boxes,
attended to by female slaves assigned to her for her own use, to whom she was as absolute mistress, she held sway almost as might have a Ubara. A word from her, for or against a fellow, as she pleased, could promote or ruin a career. In her tents
she would receive visitors, callers and petitioners. Dozens, coming to understand her power, came soon to sue for her favor.

- Mercenaries of Gor


Then there is obviously also the many other known quotes that describe how some men were controlled by their slaves and all that.

It just shows to me that even in Gor things weren't all that black and white when above you have examples of Free Men and women coming to grovel at the feet of a high-slave for her favour...
User avatar
Tashiana
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:42 am
SL Name: Tashiana Ziplon
Caste: Panther
Role: Herlit
Home Stone: Sa Nahele
Location: Sweden

Re: Does gorean slavery have to be different from earth slav

Postby Tashiana » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:12 am

There are nothing ”good” in RL slavery and it has always sucked to be a slave.
Dont ask ... just do.

Return to “Debate It.”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron