Slaves and FW just keep running away!

[Tamar Luminos]

Farah, your post got me thinking.

My first thought was- why was your mistress pitching a hairy cat fit in your IM's and blaming you for your character getting capped? That sounded a bit...wrong to me.

But then I thought, well ok, put myself in that place and think about it, what would happen? If I was playing my slavey-type character, and some random guy snagged me, what would happen? What would I do? How would I react?

And I thought- ok, well- first off, would I let him take me off the sim? And I decided, if it was to another r/p sim, ya, I guess I would- though I'd likely suggest using a travel sim for funsies and to be more realistic and stuff and to give Harlequin a chance to mount a force for a counter raid to get me back. To my thinking, it'd be much more likely that once I was discovered missing, he'd put the word out, offer a reward, search the city, beat a few street urchins up for info, bribe/string up a dockworker or two, etc. before he could find out any info about what had happened to me. All of which could take awhile. But then my captor would realistically have a bit of travel time to contend with. Even if on tarnback, there'd be a bit of travel time involved, seems like...

So there's that. If they wanted me to go back to a private sim, the answer would be no, but thank you for playing.

Would I let Harlequin know in IM's? Probably, if for no other reason than to snicker about it. But I'd trust him not to metagame it, he's pretty good like that. I might turn it into a game, ask my captor if there'd be any clues or signs left as to what might have happened to me that Cadence could eventually pick up on, and if so, pass those along GM-style, etc. I'd want all three of us to have fun with the r/p, personally.

Would Quin be in my IM's pissed off and blaming me for getting caught? I don't think so, even though he and I are decidedly in an ooc relationship, we still try to keep IC and OOC stuff separate. Doubt he'd be thrilled if I told him the guy was talking about keeping me, put a collar with "I belong to NewGuy" on me and all that, but long as it was kept IC, he'd keep it IC too. Maybe make plans to steal the guy's daughter and deflower her and sell her to slavers in Port Kar ot summit. Heh. I'm sure he could get creative. But still, I'd hope that it could all be kept IC and played out as a fun, intense, exciting bit of r/p and no butthurt OOC going on.

Only time I could see stepping out of it, FTB, or ending the r/p is if things got too stupid (i.e. "I cut off your nipples and carved my name in your ass and sewed your coochie closed", or "I hate Quin OOC so this is the perfect way to get back at him!", or "Yur av is 2 hot, u b-long 2 meh now, give me ur skype and send me naked pics, slave!") Yeah. I'd be bailing at any of those points. LOL

But otherwise, I'd have fun with it, and try to get everyone involved to have a good time with it too.

[Escapee]

@ anarch. There are still people out there who can and will agree to this long term story. Part of what keeps it from happening more frequently (in my opinion ). Is a short attention span in SL Gor. Sims come and go so quickly. Role play partners leave characters hanging in storylines without proper resolution, and there is always the rp group they are members of, some of who frown on people leaving the sim for longer captive rp

I have had one captive rp that lasted two weeks. Was excellent rp, too. And very important to the (now retired) character's own journey.

Sorry if this is rehash of other's comments. Too little time to sift thru the posts.

[Mynerva]

I think this touches on a few things I think often about;
the reason why I went with the man who took me off the sim was that I felt that I had to. I couldn't cry "invalid" as he did nothing wrong. There were no guards, no one else on the sim that, as a slave, I was supposed to be on, and depending on other sims, I *had* to be on. (no traveling slave rule). (Which then gets into other issues of why would random slaves serve random free in the books, even though we're on Second Life, and not in the books..)
So it was a question of accepting role play that didn't break any rules. And I felt that it would be against the rules to not accept the leash.

You do NOT have to do anything! That does not mean you have to cry invalid. You could have faded the whole thing to black – no invalid necessary. Also – and this is how I see it. When I play on a sim I give my consent to those sim rules – I give my consent to play there. When someone wants to take me to another sim - my consent is needed again. My OOC consent! Has nothing to do with your IC character. If I do not consent the person is welcome to play with me where I am – if that person does not want to do that – that is their choice.

Then this leads to the fact that this Master only spoke to me ICly saying he was keeping me forever. And my Mistress in my IMs saying that because I didn't fight him hard enough, he was going to be my new permanent owner...and that it was my fault for being capped. (Even though there's a good point of debate between sims about whether slaves should fight Free in that situation. Let alone the reason why I don't fight is that my PC can't handle it and I'm not that good at it.)

You do not depend on another player to initiate an OOC conversation with you. If you wanted to clear some things up with your captor – why did you not IM him and tell him, “Listen I will go with this for now – but I will not be permanent. Just wanted you to know that.” If you do not have an OOC M/s relationship with the person who plays your mistress you should have told her to stfu….and that you are done playing with her anyway- and with her crap. If you do have an OOC M/s thing with her – maybe complaining here about her being rude to you OOC is not such a good idea. Just a thought.

And here is where there could be some OOC courtesy. Yes, I'm a slave on Gor and yes on Gor, a Master only cares that a slave serves him well and nothing else, but I have a real life schedule to keep, so some OOC ((hey can you stick around a few days or hey, I only want to do this for a few hours?)) would be greatly appreciated.
.

Again – why do you think you have to wait for others to initiate such OOC conversations with you? Whatever happened to simply sending a polite IM yourself that says something like, “I have such and such time to play – how will that work for you?” Has nothing to do with playing a slave….

And to the "protection of slaves" thing; I think its complex because whatever the slave is (life styler to role player) a slave obeys all Free, not just their Owner, ...so saying that you won't obey a random stranger in WalMart or Online is completely irrelevant to saying whether a Gorean slave should obey the orders of a Free that do not conflict with sim rules or their personal limits. Notice I did not say Master's orders

Slaves obey IC!!! OOC – you do not have to do a damn thing anyone asks of you – or demands from you. The examples of walmart or online in general was clearly aimed at OOC orders. I do not know why obeying IC only would present any kind of danger to anyone! Maybe you can enlighten me…

[Aphris]

Banning things doesn't make them go away. That analogy was dumb - prostitution, forced or not, has no bearing whatever on online communications between adults.

Yea , we are all dumb, naiv and stupid. Bye Oor, just let all the shit happen, why care about it?

[farah]

farah wrote:
I think this touches on a few things I think often about;
the reason why I went with the man who took me off the sim was that I felt that I had to. I couldn't cry "invalid" as he did nothing wrong. There were no guards, no one else on the sim that, as a slave, I was supposed to be on, and depending on other sims, I *had* to be on. (no traveling slave rule). (Which then gets into other issues of why would random slaves serve random free in the books, even though we're on Second Life, and not in the books..)
So it was a question of accepting role play that didn't break any rules. And I felt that it would be against the rules to not accept the leash.


You do NOT have to do anything! That does not mean you have to cry invalid. You could have faded the whole thing to black – no invalid necessary. Also – and this is how I see it. When I play on a sim I give my consent to those sim rules – I give my consent to play there. When someone wants to take me to another sim - my consent is needed again. My OOC consent! Has nothing to do with your IC character. If I do not consent the person is welcome to play with me where I am – if that person does not want to do that – that is their choice.

I've never used Fade to Black before, and didn't really think about it then. But in the case of a capture, as opposed to sex or torture, what does fade to black mean as far as role play? if the point of fade to black is I don't want to role play the actual act, the act still happens, so I fade to black on being captured...so I'm still captured? Plus I was on Siba of two or three years ago, which means the Shadow Outlaws (yeah, yeah femlaws, GE, ebil ebil) which would have been ridiculous to have a Shadow slave say "no, I don't consent to you taking me off sim" when that's half the point of what the Shadows did. And actually that came up with another point when someone tried to steal me and no one said "oh, you don't have to consent to that." And isn't that the point of this entire thread about people who are captives just running away? Which would sort of suggest they weren't exercising their consent earlier?

farah wrote:
Then this leads to the fact that this Master only spoke to me ICly saying he was keeping me forever. And my Mistress in my IMs saying that because I didn't fight him hard enough, he was going to be my new permanent owner...and that it was my fault for being capped. (Even though there's a good point of debate between sims about whether slaves should fight Free in that situation. Let alone the reason why I don't fight is that my PC can't handle it and I'm not that good at it.)


You do not depend on another player to initiate an OOC conversation with you. If you wanted to clear some things up with your captor – why did you not IM him and tell him, “Listen I will go with this for now – but I will not be permanent. Just wanted you to know that.” If you do not have an OOC M/s relationship with the person who plays your mistress you should have told her to stfu….and that you are done playing with her anyway- and with her crap. If you do have an OOC M/s thing with her – maybe complaining here about her being rude to you OOC is not such a good idea. Just a thought.

I wish I still had those chat logs. Again, this was two years ago. And right now, I can't remember if I did IM him and he didn't respond or if I didn't IM at all. And the harder I think about it, the more I'm unsure about it, but I think he didn't respond.

My relationship with True is a very complex, layered IC/OOC blend of very hard to define. So I am just going to skip over that for now.

But back to the

farah wrote:
And here is where there could be some OOC courtesy. Yes, I'm a slave on Gor and yes on Gor, a Master only cares that a slave serves him well and nothing else, but I have a real life schedule to keep, so some OOC ((hey can you stick around a few days or hey, I only want to do this for a few hours?)) would be greatly appreciated.
.

Again – why do you think you have to wait for others to initiate such OOC conversations with you? Whatever happened to simply sending a polite IM yourself that says something like, “I have such and such time to play – how will that work for you?” Has nothing to do with playing a slave….

[/quote]

The basic standard I am asking for is if someone wants to capture me, they should IM me

Slaves obey IC!!! OOC – you do not have to do a damn thing anyone asks of you – or demands from you. The examples of walmart or online in general was clearly aimed at OOC orders. I do not know why obeying IC only would present any kind of danger to anyone! Maybe you can enlighten me…

regarding schedules. The OP, if I remember, was asking why were people running away, not I hate being captured, what should I do?

Slaves obey IC!!! OOC – you do not have to do a damn thing anyone asks of you – or demands from you. The examples of walmart or online in general was clearly aimed at OOC orders. I do not know why obeying IC only would present any kind of danger to anyone! Maybe you can enlighten me…

Here's the problem, you are saying that a slave's IC action has no effect on OOC,or shouldn't. That's implicitly wrong. If I enjoy being with my Owner on an OOC level, and if I don't then why am I doing it on an IC level, or my Owner enjoys being with me on an OOC level, then my being captured following the rules of Gorean role play and in character, does affect me OOC, on exactly the thing I just said. Danger is too strong a word, a loss is closer to what is happening. Not a major one, but a loss.

EDIT: Anything I didn't say in the quotes was Mynerva. I was mostly responding to her and I don't have the quote system right yet. Hardly ever used them before, sorry about that.

[Sasi]

Slaves obey IC!!! OOC – you do not have to do a damn thing anyone asks of you – or demands from you. The examples of walmart or online in general was clearly aimed at OOC orders. I do not know why obeying IC only would present any kind of danger to anyone! Maybe you can enlighten me…

Here's the problem, you are saying that a slave's IC action has no effect on OOC,or shouldn't. That's implicitly wrong. If I enjoy being with my Owner on an OOC level, and if I don't then why am I doing it on an IC level, or my Owner enjoys being with me on an OOC level, then my being captured following the rules of Gorean role play and in character, does affect me OOC, on exactly the thing I just said. Danger is too strong a word, a loss is closer to what is happening. Not a major one, but a loss.

EDIT: Anything I didn't say in the quotes was Mynerva. I was mostly responding to her and I don't have the quote system right yet. Hardly ever used them before, sorry about that.

Farah, you are perfectly right to refuse to be captured and taken in a sim when you dont want to play. If I was captured and brought to a GE or lifestyle sim, I would simply refuse the capture, whatever the role I play. Myself, I refuse simply to engage in role play with GE Rpers, even in BTB sims, because our backgrounds dont mesh. I wont engage in role play with someone recognizing the existence of Ms Conan... I have never got an issue with my choice.

Regarding the FTB concept, I accepted a capture, no one can force me to role play a rape in sexual details. I FTB and I play the consequences. It's why FTB have been invented. You dont play the scene which make you uncomfortable, but you play its consequences. Simple enough, no?

If you are captured by someone who has no time to RP you, see what are your other possibilities of role play with other people. IM your captor and see how you can organize your capture role play. No role play? TP out, consider that another kajira has been captured, forget the scene. Not a big deal, it happens every day. People IMing their target to check their online hours before to capture it, well, it kills a bit the surprise effect, so, do not expect too much that it happens...

Second, your OOC relation with the guy playing your master is private. It's something between you and him, based on an mutual consent. In any case it should influence your role play with other people. If being captured in RP has consequences for your OOC relationship with your partner, maybe should you both reconsider your presence in a role play sim and go to play in a lifestyle sim.

But once you put a foot in a role play sim, you must consider yourself, first, in OOC, like a role player, an adult person able to make your own choices in RP in the respect of other people rping with you and around you and consider that you are equal in OOC to all these people. You are no more a slave in OOC, you role play a slave, you portray a slave character.

You are a role player, OOC, you are equal to everyone, even to someone playing a ubar, ubara. No more difference in OOC, only people role playing. When you understand this point, you become able to be respected OOC, as a role player.

[Mynerva]

farah wrote:
I've never used Fade to Black before, and didn't really think about it then. But in the case of a capture, as opposed to sex or torture, what does fade to black mean as far as role play? if the point of fade to black is I don't want to role play the actual act, the act still happens, so I fade to black on being captured...so I'm still captured?


I wish I still had those chat logs. Again, this was two years ago. And right now, I can't remember if I did IM him and he didn't respond or if I didn't IM at all. And the harder I think about it, the more I'm unsure about it, but I think he didn't respond.

My relationship with True is a very complex, layered IC/OOC blend of very hard to define. So I am just going to skip over that for now.


Here's the problem, you are saying that a slave's IC action has no effect on OOC,or shouldn't. That's implicitly wrong. If I enjoy being with my Owner on an OOC level, and if I don't then why am I doing it on an IC level, or my Owner enjoys being with me on an OOC level, then my being captured following the rules of Gorean role play and in character, does affect me OOC, on exactly the thing I just said. Danger is too strong a word, a loss is closer to what is happening. Not a major one, but a loss.

You decided to never use fade to black. That is YOUR decision. Own it.

You decided to go with the capture – even when the guy was an ass and refused to talk to you about it OOC and in IM. You could have gone OOC in open chat and asked him to respond to your IM. If he had refused – you simply could have ended the rp. That was YOUR decision. Own it.

No one forces you to be in a relationship that is complex and crosses OOC lines. That is YOUR decision. Own it.

If a relationship crosses OOC lines in sl – that CAN be kept completely separate from what happens IC. Just because you are captured does not mean your relationship with whoever has to change. One is role play – the other thing is OOC. Why would not you not be able to still spend OOC time with the person you are in a relationship with – talk, do all the things people do? And in the long run a solution can be found to also reunite people IC. It is YOUR decision to let some random capture interfere with your relationship. Own it.

I do not want to be an ass to you. I am telling you the truth. You cannot change what other people do. They might be assholes, they might do it completely wrong....and that will not change. What you CAN do is to change what YOU do. That is the only thing you can do – it is like that in rl and it is like that in sl.

What I often see in sl people bitching and moaning and complaining about stuff others do. When you offer them a solutions - they find 100 reasons why they do not want to do that. They would rather go back to bitching and moaning and complaining about all the stuff others do wrong and how they have to suffer from it...

[Oor]

Yea , we are all dumb, naiv and stupid. Bye Oor, just let all the shit happen, why care about it?

Yes. That sounds exactly like what I said.

Also, everything Mynerva said.

[farah]

I never said that I would never use fade to black, just how would Fade to Black work in a capture. For example, if I was working in a tavern and someone took me to the alcove to be used, I didn't feel right doing ERP with this person, I faded to black, we come out later and he had sex with me, the reasonable conclusion of the IC action prior to FTB.

If I FTB on a capture, then the reasonable conclusion is that I've been captured. Which thinking about it could mean that I was captured, taken and then somehow sold back to my Owner or something, but it seems to invite "god-modding" as opposed to role-play. And any such negotiations would ruin immersion, something I value.

No one forces you to be in a relationship that is complex and crosses OOC lines. That is YOUR decision. Own it.

The reason I brought the issue up for that specific capture is that what True and I had was very specific, it doesn't strictly fit into standard notions of relationships and I did not feel like going into an in-depth analysis of our relationship on a forum, and specifically this one. I only brought it up to relate back to the OP issue of what influences people as part of capture role play on Gor, as the relationships on Gor are not always purely role playing ones.

@Mynerva
I think part of the problem you are seeing is that because the individuals who come to Gor don't have the same agendas, the advise you give, which is advise based on your experience and agenda is conflicting to their agenda, and so they bitch and moan.

As a role player, somewhat, on SL Gor, saying that "no one can effect you, but you" is B.S. There have been countless situations where player relationships have been broken apart due to the actions of other players, outside of the relationship, especially if the IC relationship is part of the basis for the OOC one. To say otherwise is to deny human nature.

[Oor]

If I FTB on a capture, then the reasonable conclusion is that I've been captured. Which thinking about it could mean that I was captured, taken and then somehow sold back to my Owner or something, but it seems to invite "god-modding" as opposed to role-play. And any such negotiations would ruin immersion, something I value.

There's a tade-off between immersion and putting up with shitty RP or RP that you just don't want to play - always has been, always will be.

You EITHER value immersion so much that you will go along with any and all capture RP for immersion's sake, and take it to its logical conclusion (be that remaining with the captor indefinitely, being sold to a random city's slave house, or finding a way to return home) OR you decide that in specific instances and at specific times, you are not prepared to have your role play override your OOC desire to remain in a specific place, or with a specific person, or have your character taken in a direction you don't want, and will therefore use FTB. The decision is up to you.

Some people value immersion so much that they go along with literally anything, and some people value their own OOC preference so much that they will FTB something as simple as being told to sit the wrong way. It's individual.

As for the 'human nature' part - it's fine to have relationships with the people you play with. At the point that it starts affecting other people's role play or having IC consequences that wouldn't be the case were it not for the OOC relationship, then you've started "doing it wrong" as a role player. It's time to either reconsider how you conduct yourself IC and OOC, or leave RP so that you don't impact on other people's stories and RP and OOC peace. Probably not an answer you'll like, but an honest one nonetheless. This is not a concept that is met with great difficulty in other genres of RP - it's always baffled me that it is in Gorean RP.