serene mistwood wrote:I agree. Norman states time and time again that women of a given caste often don't engage in caste work, so the Musicians caste would be no different to any other, but in SL Gor our Librarys and Infirmarys are full of female Physicians and Scribes. No difference.
That was my point. Clearly, Norman tends to think of the baker, the smith and the barber as men, consistently, which makes sense, given the fact that he is from an earlier generation plus the whole male dominance thing, but I think that, in most cases, he doesn't rule out women (in some cases, he is specific, in others, he isn't at all). Given that in gorean RP, people tend to enter 'work' related roles more easily than 'family member' roles, it makes sense to have female healers and such, or even heads of a caste. Maybe this doesn't produce the most btb-ish environment possible, but... if there is a free woman to be the scribe, and no free man, she is the scribe. And if this is true for most caste professions, I cannot see why it would not be the case for musicians.
Felida Raleigh wrote:This was OT: now let me add to your question. The city cultures of Gor are based on Rome, old Greece ... Tor has similarities to Baghdad if I remember well. I do not know so much of middle eastern cultures but in Rome and Greece, more than 2000 years ago, there were no female actors at all. The Greek tragedy was presented by male actors only.
True. This is something I love to point out here.
Gor is highly emancipated compared real earth history. A free woman in Ar is far more free than one in ancient Athens or ancient Rome (and they were more free than those in Athens). Gor is based on earth's historical cultures, but not a mirror image. So, even if it is true that Greek tragedy was played by male actors only (including female roles, which was the case in many cultures that had 'theatre', including Shakespeare's England), this need not apply to gor. After all, Gor is quite 'free'/'liberal' in many ways (and not that religious either).
Aphris wrote:Some quotes state that the Caste of Musicians are immune for slavery.
Yep. Hence my reference to 'musician's armor'.
I remember previous discussions of that topic here. I think that we agreed that the 'never' in the first quote should be seen as one of Tarl's typical 'strong' ways of putting things, and as Claude says... I think it would depend on circumstances and on who would be doing the enslaving. I can't image a line of slaves in row in front of a potential buyer, and one slave piping up: "I am a musician!" and the slaver going "Oh... a dreadful mistake, let me release her at once!"
And as you already said... the might still be raped, beaten, killed or gagged and strung up next to a fire (I never realized how gorean that commic really was!)
Willow wrote:So yes, I'd see it as being a bit like Jane Austen, where the daughters of wealthier households warbled "Well met Amelia beauteous maid" to the tinkling of a spinette, and where the peasantry were singing "The turnip hoers song" in the rustic alehouse. And then of course you'd have professional musicians.
I agree. This would most likely be the norm. I think that you would not find many female players accompanying slave dances in the tavern. But you might well find them playing at a ceremony. And a poorer free woman might play in the streets or even at a merc camp, I imagine.
I have never seen a bowed instrument on Gor; also, I might mention, I have never on Gor seen any written music; I do not know if a notation exists; melodies are passed on from father to son, from master to apprentice.
While JN may have not come out and said "Women do not practice the caste of musicians..." he does refer to them more often then not as men. He also puts them into positions that a woman would normally not be allowed, like in taverns and on ships.
I disagree. Well, I agree that he probably thought of them as men. But then, Norman nearly always thinks of anyone or anything neuter as male. He shares this with most writers of his time and before. In Tarnsmen, we see the council of Ko-Ro-Ba, and the way Norman describes them is all men, though he never says that. I read it that way, and I think I read it correctly. But while Norman makes it a point to make sure we understand that all warriors are men (as he does with other roles), often being specific, he doesn't do so about many other caste roles, which, to me, seems to be an indication that either never really considered it or had not made up his mind or that he thought that sometimes those roles could be filled by a woman.