Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Is Amanda Knox...

Guilty?
4
20%
Guilty?
4
20%
Innocent?
6
30%
Innocent?
6
30%
 
Total votes: 20
Rue
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Rue » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:32 am

I think the only thing she is guilty of is being a scared and stupid young woman. I don't actually think she killed anyone or participated in the rape and killing. Italy already found the murderer. I think, at this point, it is clear that Italy can't even decide if she is innocent or guilty, so, therefore, she is not guilty by default. I am an American, so I fully acknowledge this is a cultural view. But, seriously, if you can't have the same outcome in this many trials, then clearly the case is not solid. You don't keep trying a person until you get the outcome you want.

About the US justice system: It sucks in many ways. Many (most) people in the US do not agree with the death penalty, even in cases of terrorism or murder. I certainly don't agree with humans deciding who lives or dies, because I think the justice system is imperfect and the decision to take a life is not something the justice system (or any justice system in the world) can ever accurately decide. If even one innocent person gets convicted, that is worse to me than 100 guilty people walking free.

That being said, this isn't about the US Justice system. Who cares? This is about trying a person multiple times for the same crime. The US is never going to extradite this girl to Italy. Italy should have kept her if they couldn't get their ducks in a row and get the result they wanted the first or second time around. Also, there was so much poor journalism going on with this trial that most people probably can't make an informed decision. Let's not even start about the sexism that ran rampant in the tabloids, virgin vs. whore crap.
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Theoden
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Theoden » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:37 pm

The fact of the matter is this crime was done on Italian territory. Thus the Double Jeopardy thing doesn't apply here. If we want any countries to cooperate with extradition treaties we have with them then we need to cooperate with them as well. This is ridiculous.

This reminds me of the situation where we're trying to execute some cop-killing mexican in Texas. Capital punishment isn't allowed in Mexico. But it is allowed in the US. Mexico is trying to get us to not execute him. Well fuck them, this mexican committed the crime on AMERICAN SOIL. Thus, American law and capital punishment applies.

If this Amanda Knox does something on ITALIAN soil, then Italian law applies. It doesn't matter what the US constitution says.

It's not like Italy is some third world country, it's a western country, its in the EU, it's freaking Italy ffs. Why are we refusing to expedite this chick?

If this chick was fat and ugly she'd be expedited to Italy a long time ago in a fucking crate in the cargo hold.

It's not like we're being asked to expedite her to freaking Thailand because she stepped on a goldfish and they want her to hang for it.
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Glaucon » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:49 pm

:teehee: :yeahthat:
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Mynerva
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Mynerva » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:21 pm

Theoden wrote:
This reminds me of the situation where we're trying to execute some cop-killing mexican in Texas. Capital punishment isn't allowed in Mexico. But it is allowed in the US. Mexico is trying to get us to not execute him. Well fuck them, this mexican committed the crime on AMERICAN SOIL. Thus, American law and capital punishment applies.



I don't know about the Mexican situation. But I know that European countries do not send people back to the U.S. to face the death penalty. The U.S. usually agrees to not seek the death penalty if they really want the person to stand trial in the U.S.

So we Europeans do it too. We apply our own beliefs about the death penalty and expect the U.S. to change what they would usually do if they want the person to be on trial.
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Glaucon
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Glaucon » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:47 pm

You are right. We do that too.

But there is a difference. When we do not extradite someone because they stand to be put to death in the USA, we do that on moral grounds (because, apparently, we feel that capital punishment is immoral and because we would be complicit in an immoral act if we extradited a person facing it). But can you really call a procedural defense (double jeopardy) a moral principle as well? To me, it seems like a somewhat arbitrary legal rule, historically contingent, mostly, even if I guess it may be historically linked to the 'fight against tyranny' that birthed the USA and is in the constitution. It doesn't seem to be a clear-cut question of moral values, though, as it is with the death penalty (which is, in turn, linked to Europe's history, WW II in particular).

I suppose that this double jeopardy thing is in the US constitution. And, correct me if I am wrong, but... I do believe that, unlike many European constitutions, rights mentioned in the constitution have precedence over international treaties, in the USA. If so, I guess that, legally, Amanda Knox could not be extradited.
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Leah » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:29 pm

Glaucon wrote:I suppose that this double jeopardy thing is in the US constitution. And, correct me if I am wrong, but... I do believe that, unlike many European constitutions, rights mentioned in the constitution have precedence over international treaties, in the USA. If so, I guess that, legally, Amanda Knox could not be extradited.


It depends on whether or not they see this as double jeopardy. In the US legal system, you can't be retried if declared not guilty (i.e. acquitted), and appeals are not based on whether or not the person is guilty or innocent, but whether or not procedural errors took place in a trial that resulted in a guilty verdict.

So here, it would have been guilty verdict, then appeals based on things the Prosecution flubbed, or things that were hidden, etc. There never would have been a second trial of her guilt or innocence unless the first trial was thrown out. Then the second trial could be held if the Prosecution decided to pursue it.

What happened her was two trials of her guilt or innocence, with the second one declaring her innocent. Whether or not this fits with double jeopardy (since the first verdict was actually guilty), I don't know.
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Glaucon » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:38 pm

Fair point. In any case, I'd chalk it up on procedural differences. But I am sure that there will be some excuse not to extradite her.
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Mynerva
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Mynerva » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:03 am

Glaucon wrote:You are right. We do that too.

But there is a difference. When we do not extradite someone because they stand to be put to death in the USA, we do that on moral grounds (because, apparently, we feel that capital punishment is immoral and because we would be complicit in an immoral act if we extradited a person facing it). But can you really call a procedural defense (double jeopardy) a moral principle as well? To me, it seems like a somewhat arbitrary legal rule, historically contingent, mostly, even if I guess it may be historically linked to the 'fight against tyranny' that birthed the USA and is in the constitution. It doesn't seem to be a clear-cut question of moral values, though, as it is with the death penalty (which is, in turn, linked to Europe's history, WW II in particular).

I suppose that this double jeopardy thing is in the US constitution. And, correct me if I am wrong, but... I do believe that, unlike many European constitutions, rights mentioned in the constitution have precedence over international treaties, in the USA. If so, I guess that, legally, Amanda Knox could not be extradited.



Glaucon - what is moral?

Is it moral to put someone to death?

Is it moral to put someone on trial over and over again?

I do not think there is a definite answer.

I am not discussing what is moral and what is not. I am only saying that we Europeans don't do what the person said I answered to - we do not just say, "Hey the crime happened on their territory so let their justice system take its course." We also have our standards and expect other countries to make certain changes if they want people from us.
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Glaucon
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Glaucon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:33 pm

Mynerva wrote:Glaucon - what is moral?

Is it moral to put someone to death?

Is it moral to put someone on trial over and over again?

I do not think there is a definite answer.


The question I raised is not whether something is morally right, but about whether something belong to the sphere of 'questions about wrong or right'. And to me, it seems that elevating the difference between the Italian legal procedures and the US to the level of principled non-extradition because of the death-penalty (something I am sorta against, btw.) isn't exactly fair.

Then again, I suppose, to some people in the USA, the idea of double jeopardy is a 'moral issue' too. After all, if people in the USA didn't think it was fair and 'morally right', they would not have created it or changed it. (Not really true, of course. Mostly, people tend to think that their way of doing things is the 'right way' because they happen to be used to it).

I am only saying that we Europeans don't do what the person said I answered to - we do not just say, "Hey the crime happened on their territory so let their justice system take its course." We also have our standards and expect other countries to make certain changes if they want people from us.


Sure. But most countries in Europe (and the other 'friends' of the USA) don't have this double-jeopardy thing. Most follow the Italian model. It would seem odd for the USA to sign all those extradition treaties if the USA felt they would not extradite if they felt US legal procedures weren't being followed.
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Re: Amanda Knox, Innocent or Guilty?

Postby Leah » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:59 am

Glaucon wrote:Sure. But most countries in Europe (and the other 'friends' of the USA) don't have this double-jeopardy thing. Most follow the Italian model. It would seem odd for the USA to sign all those extradition treaties if the USA felt they would not extradite if they felt US legal procedures weren't being followed.


Double jeopardy isn't a law. It's a constitutional right. It actually is above a law in that respect, since the Constitution actually governs laws themselves.
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