Edward Snowded should...

Edward Snowded should...

get a ticker-tape parade!
4
13%
get a ticker-tape parade!
4
13%
not be proscecuted.
0
No votes
not be proscecuted.
0
No votes
be offered asylum in any decent country.
3
10%
be offered asylum in any decent country.
3
10%
be ignored. Water under the bridge and all that.
3
10%
be ignored. Water under the bridge and all that.
3
10%
be brought to the USA, to answer for his crimes.
3
10%
be brought to the USA, to answer for his crimes.
3
10%
be killed, the fucking traitor, if need be abroad.
2
7%
be killed, the fucking traitor, if need be abroad.
2
7%
 
Total votes: 30
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Danika Stenvaag
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby Danika Stenvaag » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:50 pm

TreatRothschild wrote:
Danika Stenvaag wrote:right, but as i posted above, and algorithms aside, when all is said and done and raw data has been harvested and mined, you still needed analysts to prioritize what matters and what doesn't. pulling a black bag job on the country versus a specific target can lead to gridlock even with data mining. this is why it takes years, sometimes decades to analyze the stream of data coming in from archeological sites or the study of stars and galaxies.

But, we are looking for very specific things in the data, not trying to make some kind of sense of ancient artifacts or radiation data coming from Cygnus.


you're not getting it. spying on a quarter of a billion people is like sifting thru raw data from archeological digs or billions of pieces of data from the study of quasars. it takes a long time to sort even with sophisticated programs. black bag operations on the entire country versus a specific target is inefficient. and from the perspective of the argument of right or wrong on this thread, it's wrong. it's wrong morally, and much more so for it's lack of efficiency. some of this can be sidelined and misused from the original intent.

this is what i was saying essentially on my longer post on the previous page.
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Glaucon
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby Glaucon » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:53 pm

@ Treat:

Two things regarding the above exchange.

On the one hand, Danika makes a fair point. The USA seems to have a history of 'collecting data', intelligence 'gathering' and yet, being rather in the dark about the things they gathered intelligence ON. I am not talking about the WMD-thing (I think that was a lie/excuse rather than a mistake). I am talking about, say, the warnings the USA intelligence received from French intelligence agencies about a few of the people that went on to commit the 911 attacks. I am not an expert, but this seems to be a bit of a tradition, in the US, going back to WW II, Vietnam, etc. Even if their spies were the most well-funded and equiped, there just may be a REASON why 007 is a Brit. ;)

And it would make sense too. The USA seems to have many competing agencies that often seem to feud with one another. How is effective filtering and 'adding up' of information possible, let alone information actually leading to action, in such a scattered landscape of agencies?

And yet, I think Treat has a point as well. The plans of the NSA obviously went way beyond just collecting stuff. The whole prism thing seems to have been about creating semi-intelligent software that would be connecting the dots, that would be able to do advanced data-mining from meta-data (though I do believe Snowden when he claimed that the stuff that the NSA collected went well beyond meta-data). I read something about the NSA asking/demanding information from google about the AI systems they use to sort their queries and create their translations (I think that Google, of all major private companies is probably the one that devotes most energy to developing processes that might be said to border on AI). I think the ambitions of the NSA in that direction were pretty clear.

This is one of the reasons why the whole NSA thing worries me more than it seems to do most people: I think that such a smart system 'connecting the dots' is entirely possible. And I do think that such a thing may well allow such a system to do far more than just find terrorists, in the future. If you add up all the stuff people do online (even if it is just what sites they visit and what they type in in google), you can probably form a pretty clear picture of a person, their interests, proclivities, sexual preferences, politics, financial situation, desires, aspirations, and so forth.

For example, if I could see every site that Treat or Danika have looked out, if I can see when, I can probably see how long they have been looking at the site as well. And what link they clicked. Should Treat have a tendency to linger longer on, say, sites with pictures of pretty women, I could examine what the pictures he looked at where exactly, which link he clicked, or which picture he paused at. Most likely, that would tell me whether he prefers blondes or not, his preference for but and breast-size, and so forth. ;)

Harmless, you may think. But the fact is that most of us here do not post using our real names. Not because what we do is a crime, but because it is no one's business. I'd rather that there WAS no one, no system that would allow anyone to make it their business, regardless of assurances about responsible use. Especially not from a country that thinks it is fine to spy on people if they are not Americans, with my own government (of Smurfistan) offering our great friends from the USA total access to the private lives of it's citizens, perhaps in the hope they will get some scraps of the data collected back in return. :banghead: :pissed:

Yes, I am ranting. Stopping now. :)
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby Leah » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:46 am

Anarch Allegiere wrote:There's a reason why he didn't stay in the US, or in any european country. The guy isn't an idiot.

He'd most likely end up hanged or something, with media trying to claim he commited suicide.

Over here in Belgium the government is pretty liberal and comes across as a bunch of pansies, but not too long ago there was the whole (still unsolved) issue of the "Gang of Nijvel" and a lot of people too ended up suspiciously dead in their prison cells or simply disappearing.

If you're in the loop, like Snowden, of all the secret illegal stuff your government pulls you'd probably also not be unfamiliar with governments trying to be dirty in how they'd like to clean up their biggest mess.


I have a friend with a...shall we say...colorful history. What I got from him, regarding Snowden, is that if the US ever gets their hands on him, we probably won't ever see him again. If he'd stayed in the US, he would already be dead. He's probably not much safer in Russia, however.
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TreatRothschild
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby TreatRothschild » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:24 am

Glaucon wrote:@ Treat:

Two things regarding the above exchange.

On the one hand, Danika makes a fair point. The USA seems to have a history of 'collecting data', intelligence 'gathering' and yet, being rather in the dark about the things they gathered intelligence ON. I am not talking about the WMD-thing (I think that was a lie/excuse rather than a mistake). I am talking about, say, the warnings the USA intelligence received from French intelligence agencies about a few of the people that went on to commit the 911 attacks. I am not an expert, but this seems to be a bit of a tradition, in the US, going back to WW II, Vietnam, etc. Even if their spies were the most well-funded and equiped, there just may be a REASON why 007 is a Brit. ;)

And it would make sense too. The USA seems to have many competing agencies that often seem to feud with one another. How is effective filtering and 'adding up' of information possible, let alone information actually leading to action, in such a scattered landscape of agencies?

And yet, I think Treat has a point as well. The plans of the NSA obviously went way beyond just collecting stuff. The whole prism thing seems to have been about creating semi-intelligent software that would be connecting the dots, that would be able to do advanced data-mining from meta-data (though I do believe Snowden when he claimed that the stuff that the NSA collected went well beyond meta-data). I read something about the NSA asking/demanding information from google about the AI systems they use to sort their queries and create their translations (I think that Google, of all major private companies is probably the one that devotes most energy to developing processes that might be said to border on AI). I think the ambitions of the NSA in that direction were pretty clear.

This is one of the reasons why the whole NSA thing worries me more than it seems to do most people: I think that such a smart system 'connecting the dots' is entirely possible. And I do think that such a thing may well allow such a system to do far more than just find terrorists, in the future. If you add up all the stuff people do online (even if it is just what sites they visit and what they type in in google), you can probably form a pretty clear picture of a person, their interests, proclivities, sexual preferences, politics, financial situation, desires, aspirations, and so forth.

For example, if I could see every site that Treat or Danika have looked out, if I can see when, I can probably see how long they have been looking at the site as well. And what link they clicked. Should Treat have a tendency to linger longer on, say, sites with pictures of pretty women, I could examine what the pictures he looked at where exactly, which link he clicked, or which picture he paused at. Most likely, that would tell me whether he prefers blondes or not, his preference for but and breast-size, and so forth. ;)

Harmless, you may think. But the fact is that most of us here do not post using our real names. Not because what we do is a crime, but because it is no one's business. I'd rather that there WAS no one, no system that would allow anyone to make it their business, regardless of assurances about responsible use. Especially not from a country that thinks it is fine to spy on people if they are not Americans, with my own government (of Smurfistan) offering our great friends from the USA total access to the private lives of it's citizens, perhaps in the hope they will get some scraps of the data collected back in return. :banghead: :pissed:

Yes, I am ranting. Stopping now. :)

I agree with you about US Intelligence. It's been described as a blind giant, stumbling from revelation to revelation with no real direction.


The semi-intelligent software has been around for years. On one of my first jobs, we used a version of it to search Usenet. This was in the mid to late 90s, I'm sure it's gotten better since then. If you have this sort of software and a few super computers and you are only looking for specific things, the problem becomes manageable. Still a mountain of data, but it's like dragging a magnet through that haystack and coming up with needles.

Yes, what they are doing is wrong and your descriptions of what they are doing with the metadata, Glau, to my understanding, is exactly right. They look at where you go. They don't really care what you looked at. It all builds up a picture. Tiny pieces of disparate information. The amusing thing about this, and it's amusing in an ironic sense not in a ha-ha sense, is that corporations have been doing this for YEARS and no one has blinked an eye.
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Glaucon
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby Glaucon » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:39 pm

TreatRothschild wrote:The amusing thing about this, and it's amusing in an ironic sense not in a ha-ha sense, is that corporations have been doing this for YEARS and no one has blinked an eye.


True. True. Then again, the primary purpose of Google in doing this is to act like the perfect pimp, to be able to guide every John to the prostitute most matching his preferences and mood at that time. The primary purpose of Government in doing this is to keep an eye on what the Johns are doing without them knowing it and to act against those Johns when they seem to be looking for the wrong thing. The first thing is meant to benefit us, and at least we get to SEE our pimp, though we don't know what files he keeps on us. The second thing is meant check/control us and we are not supposed to have any idea about it happening.
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby TreatRothschild » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:14 pm

Oh, I agree with you. Have you been watching the latest things about tracking? They have developed a digital "fingerprint" of your devices, so that it doesn't matter if you delete cookies. Using a combination of what browser you use, your MAC address and what plugins you have on your browser, they can identify you with astonishing accuracy.

https://panopticlick.eff.org/

Check your "uniqueness" here.

https://panopticlick.eff.org/browser-uniqueness.pdf

http://www.pcworld.com/article/192648/b ... rints.html
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Glaucon
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby Glaucon » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:47 pm

Interesting. Good site-name too.

Don't get me wrong. I don't visit enough kiddie-porn and how-to-make-a-nuclear-bomb sites to be of interest to 'the authorities'. But I understand enough of the logic of government and I know enough about the historical development of state-formation to be pretty sure that a government that has tools like these at it's disposal won't limit it's own use of these tools to fight terrorists and pedophiles for long. And potentially less benign use by corporations is certainly withing the realm of the possible as well (though a corporation/government collaboration would worry me most).
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby TreatRothschild » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:51 pm

Those exist already. Follow a cnet reporter named Declan Mccullagh, he is usually about 6 to 18 months ahead of everyone else in this type of reporting.

http://www.cnet.com/profile/declan00/
Let me give you some advice bastard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.
...

Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby ... » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:22 pm

TreatRothschild wrote:The amusing thing about this, and it's amusing in an ironic sense not in a ha-ha sense, is that corporations have been doing this for YEARS and no one has blinked an eye.


Corporations do not have the power to put you in a cage.
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Re: Edward Snowded should...

Postby TreatRothschild » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:59 am

Are you certain of that?
Let me give you some advice bastard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.

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